Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Delterius]

This is what a proper full caster should wear:

lmao the meme class

 

[Humbaba]

This is the dress of a proper nuker.

 

[Mortmal]

My objection wasn't even about how to min-max or to buff more efficiently. It was about how tiring it is being CONSTANTLY expected to perform at the limit of your capabilities.

If Core is at the limit of capabilities you have two options:
A) Increase your capabilities aka git gud.
B) Lower the difficulty.
So far you have chosen hidden option C) "whine and refuse to change anything". Needless to say, this is not a real solution to your problem.

I don’t think he’s refusing to change anything. In fact he’s sort of asking for help while also complaining about the game for making him need to. I could see being a veteran player getting frustrated feeling like I wasn’t given the tools necessary to figure the game out on my own.

Maybe part of that is just that we’re all older and don’t have the time and energy we did when we were kids puzzling out the intricacies of Wiz7 or Diablo2 or whatever? I guess if you’re used to PnP you’ve also got the DM there and depending how much you’re used the DM helping you out the loneliness of the cRPG can be a thing.

My DM growing up was a machine that killed me for my quarters so my mileage may vary.

There's huge differences with pnp , in pathfinder crpgs ,every encounter is very high cr because you have unlimited rests or almost and can save scum . If they implement limited rest however not only it will require more work from them and wont be balanced for rtwp but people will lament about it, so its over the top encounters and min maxed builds and only option left if you dont want that is slide down the difficulty .Really no surprise he gets frustrated , it has little to do anymore with orignal tabletop experience.

 

[Desiderius]

My objection wasn't even about how to min-max or to buff more efficiently. It was about how tiring it is being CONSTANTLY expected to perform at the limit of your capabilities.

If Core is at the limit of capabilities you have two options:
A) Increase your capabilities aka git gud.
B) Lower the difficulty.
So far you have chosen hidden option C) "whine and refuse to change anything". Needless to say, this is not a real solution to your problem.

I don’t think he’s refusing to change anything. In fact he’s sort of asking for help while also complaining about the game for making him need to. I could see being a veteran player getting frustrated feeling like I wasn’t given the tools necessary to figure the game out on my own.

Maybe part of that is just that we’re all older and don’t have the time and energy we did when we were kids puzzling out the intricacies of Wiz7 or Diablo2 or whatever? I guess if you’re used to PnP you’ve also got the DM there and depending how much you’re used the DM helping you out the loneliness of the cRPG can be a thing.

My DM growing up was a machine that killed me for my quarters so my mileage may vary.

There's huge differences with pnp , in pathfinder crpgs ,every encounter is very high cr because you have unlimited rests or almost and can save scum . If they implement limited rest however not only it will require more work from them and wont be balanced for rtwp but people will lament about it, so its over the top encounters and min maxed builds and only option left if you dont want that is slide down the difficulty .Really no surprise he gets frustrated , it has little to do anymore with orignal tabletop experience.

It’s not unlimited rests.

It’s not over the top. Turn on Wrath Unfair if you want to see over the top.

You don’t have to min max. The minmaxxers suck at it so badly that this gets obscured.

 

[Salvo]

Drezen on core is quite fine as it is. If anything, I feel they even toned it down compared to the Alpha and first Beta. For example, the named demon in the tavern was a major pain in the ass, but is much easier to kill right now, same for the interior where a couple of fights are also easier now and I suspect that by release time overall difficulty of the area will drop even further. Also, now in Beta 3 you can assign someone to fight corruption while resting which was not possible previously, giving you even more rests until you need to activate a relic and there are 2 of those outside anyway so this translates to about 6 safe rests before you even enter the citadel.

The party I most often cleared Drezen with was this: Seelah Paladin 2/Dirge Bard 7, Regill Armiger 5/Hellknight 4, Cam-Cam Spirit Hunter 9, Sosiel Cleric 9, Lann Zen Archer 2/ Drovier 7 with Leopard pet with Bully for trip and the MC Rogue 1/Sorc 4/Arcane Trickster 4. Perhaps not the best party, but they did fine multiple times.

In terms of buffs, for this area, I just keep Heroism up since it's 10 min/level along with Greater Magic Weapon, Barkskin and Magic Vestment, Armor and, depending on how well I'm doing in a fight, start putting up others with shorter duration. Bard also helps with Inspire Courage as Seelah has enough performances to keep it up most of the time with Lingering Performance.

Overall, stat bloat or not, it's perfectly doable without optimal builds or tactics and, unfortunately, if you get filtered by it, you'll have a bad time in ch.3

Or you could do it like me and not rest at all yeah I'm a badass i know

 

[Delterius]

imagine sleeping in the middle of a siege

 

[Bloodeyes]

My objection wasn't even about how to min-max or to buff more efficiently. It was about how tiring it is being CONSTANTLY expected to perform at the limit of your capabilities.

If Core is at the limit of capabilities you have two options:
A) Increase your capabilities aka git gud.
B) Lower the difficulty.
So far you have chosen hidden option C) "whine and refuse to change anything". Needless to say, this is not a real solution to your problem.

I don’t think he’s refusing to change anything. In fact he’s sort of asking for help while also complaining about the game for making him need to. I could see being a veteran player getting frustrated feeling like I wasn’t given the tools necessary to figure the game out on my own.

Maybe part of that is just that we’re all older and don’t have the time and energy we did when we were kids puzzling out the intricacies of Wiz7 or Diablo2 or whatever? I guess if you’re used to PnP you’ve also got the DM there and depending how much you’re used the DM helping you out the loneliness of the cRPG can be a thing.

My DM growing up was a machine that killed me for my quarters so my mileage may vary.

There's huge differences with pnp , in pathfinder crpgs ,every encounter is very high cr because you have unlimited rests or almost and can save scum . If they implement limited rest however not only it will require more work from them and wont be balanced for rtwp but people will lament about it, so its over the top encounters and min maxed builds and only option left if you dont want that is slide down the difficulty .Really no surprise he gets frustrated , it has little to do anymore with orignal tabletop experience.

I can only comment on the difficulty of the first game (on challenging difficulty) but since your comment is on "Pathfinder crpgs" not wrath specifically I can comment on this. I'd say the early game is kind of treacherous. You can walk into certain death without really any warning what's coming. Don't ironman story mode. It's intense but pretty unwise. It might take a couple days of play but you're basically guaranteed a death that was just dice sooner or later. But the midgame is an absolute cakewalk once you start getting your abilities. You're strong at 5, and epic at 8. I just use the standard companions in their original classes, not a custom party of minmaxed masterpieces. My builds are really basic and the dudes in the builds thread scoff at my efforts but I don't find the original game overly hard. Some fights will wake you up when you run into something new, but you then just need to look at what that was and what you need to protect yourself better. And raise your fallen comrades probably. But it is a game. Games have challenge and can be won and lost.

On challenging it's more about understanding the mechanics than needing a special build. I can't speak about higher difficulties yet but anyone who turns the diff up to the second highest or the highest can't complain. The default is normal. A certain playstyle isn't required, some just choose that because they like extreme difficulty that requires broken, borderline exploit tactics to beat. That's not wrong of them, but that's not how the base game difficulty is set at all. Just play normally and it's fine (on normal or challenging). You do have to learn the systems well. Not exploit them, but learn them. Know what stacks and what doesn't, how the saves work, how much AB you need to get a feat etc. You can't just pick abilities at random because there is fine print for everything. This isn't exploiting or minmaxing, but engaging with the game's core mechanics. Kingmaker requires you do this to succeed unlike Bioware or Bethesda games where failing is close to impossible and you become god tier without knowing how any mechanics work. Because it's a real goddamn RPG and that's what they're supposed to be like.

 

[Desiderius]

Is Saravan the second coming of Imploding Voice? We know you're retarded Saravan, but retarded just means slow not stationary. Even with your limited mental faculties we have confidence that you can figure this game out; just think how well a genius like Tuco Benedicto Pacifico can do once he gets out of his own way. Got a sweet level 9 Core TB walkthrough coming up.

 

[Desiderius]

ust play normally and it's fine (on normal or challenging). You do have to learn the systems well. Not exploit them, but learn them. Know what stacks and what doesn't, how the saves work, how much AB you need to get a feat etc. You can't just pick abilities at random because there is fine print for everything. This isn't exploiting or minmaxing, but engaging with the game's core mechanics. Kingmaker requires you do this to succeed unlike Bioware or Bethesda games where failing is close to impossible and you become god tier without knowing how any mechanics work. Because it's a real goddamn RPG and that's what they're supposed to be like.

He's trying to play on Core (not Normal) because it's designed to replicate the PnP experience and he's concerned that it's not doing that. I think once he gets some mental blocks out of the way he'll revise his understanding. Core is the one that best replicates the good PnP experience of a veteran group familiar with the ruleset getting into the setting and their characters and needing to do so to survive.

 

[Bloodeyes]

ust play normally and it's fine (on normal or challenging). You do have to learn the systems well. Not exploit them, but learn them. Know what stacks and what doesn't, how the saves work, how much AB you need to get a feat etc. You can't just pick abilities at random because there is fine print for everything. This isn't exploiting or minmaxing, but engaging with the game's core mechanics. Kingmaker requires you do this to succeed unlike Bioware or Bethesda games where failing is close to impossible and you become god tier without knowing how any mechanics work. Because it's a real goddamn RPG and that's what they're supposed to be like.

He's trying to play on Core (not Normal) because it's designed to replicate the PnP experience and he's concerned that it's not doing that. I think once he gets some mental blocks out of the way he'll revise his understanding. Core is the one that best replicates the good PnP experience of a veteran group familiar with the ruleset getting into the setting and their characters and needing to do so to survive.

He's probably right actually. Maybe the saves and stuff are the same as tabletop but I wouldn't think the difficulty really could be. It would be much too easy to be an enjoyable cRPG unless it was last Azlanti. TTRPGs have permadeath. Does core have last Azlanti on by default? I would think replicating PnP would mean no saves and ironman, but much easier encounters.

I've tried turning everything to normal in Kingmaker and playing last Azlanti recently. It was pretty great until I died at level 8 and my character was just gone. I've played roguelikes so I thought I wouldn't mind but that was pretty rough. Random encounter, no chance to buff or heal. Just dead. A manticore ran past the rest of the party and tripped him. Ate an attack of opportunity to stand up and run. Still alive but one hit away. Was going to drink potions next turn and have the whole party heal him. A SECOND MANTICORE CAME RUNNING IN and ran past the whole party and fucking critted him to death. If a DM did that to me I'd take it fucking personally. So yeah I doubt a computer game can accurately replicate the experience of tabletop, no matter how well it replicates the rules. I like cRPGs better than TTRPGs though so I'm fine with that.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yes, because it will hide your dress.

Wrong.

Disarmed unarmored fighter = worthless piece of meat
Disarmed unarmored caster = Powerful entity capable of shaping the reality

Except monks. Monks only needs his bare hands to be deadly.

 

[Mortmal]

The turn based mode mechanisms are 100% faithfull to the tabletop ruleset , rounds swift actions and so on... except the CR rating is out of line ,too many encounters , there's no use of cover, no grapples and such , the monsters stats are better to a lot better . So using core difficulty and the turn based mode is still not the tabletop experience and wont ever be.The optimum way and most enjoyable way to play this is rtwp and normal unless you are masochistic and want to play above .

 

[Delterius]

Maybe the saves and stuff are the same as tabletop

They really aren't. You're supposed to buff enemies when you have a composition of 6 player characters but Owlcat's core goes beyond that. It's also too lenient with character building so that balances itself out. Unless your character concept happens to be OP I'd play on normal for the first 5 levels and then put things on core rules afterward.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Maybe I should try PnP Pathfinder (I've actually only played DnD 3.5 on tabletop). As an intermediate skilled cRPG player it sounds like I could absolutely dominate that game. Then give all the other players wedgies and stuff them into lockers.

 

[Saravan]

Is Saravan the second coming of Imploding Voice? We know you're retarded Saravan, but retarded just means slow not stationary. Even with your limited mental faculties we have confidence that you can figure this game out; just think how well a genius like Tuco Benedicto Pacifico can do once he gets out of his own way. Got a sweet level 9 Core TB walkthrough coming up.

Retarded is when you sperg out and make 15 posts about how to optimize your homosexuality in response to a post talking about encounter design.

 

[Desiderius]

Maybe the saves and stuff are the same as tabletop

They really aren't. You're supposed to buff enemies when you have a composition of 6 player characters but Owlcat's core goes beyond that. It's also too lenient with character building so that balances itself out. Unless your character concept happens to be OP I'd play on normal for the first 5 levels and then put things on core rules afterward.

It really isn't that bad now even early. People are just getting themselves worked up.

 

[Desiderius]

Is Saravan the second coming of Imploding Voice? We know you're retarded Saravan, but retarded just means slow not stationary. Even with your limited mental faculties we have confidence that you can figure this game out; just think how well a genius like Tuco Benedicto Pacifico can do once he gets out of his own way. Got a sweet level 9 Core TB walkthrough coming up.

Retarded is when you sperg out and make 15 posts about how to optimize your homosexuality in response to a post talking about encounter design.

No, the point is that what I'm doing isn't close to optimal and I'm handling the encounters just fine. The content of his talking was that he felt that the design presented a challenge for the player that was too hard. I'm contesting that claim.

I'm walking you through this because you're slow and I care. Everyone else understands this. You're pretending to yourself that I don't understand the social cues but lying to yourself isn't going to help your mental well-being.

 

[Saravan]

Is Saravan the second coming of Imploding Voice? We know you're retarded Saravan, but retarded just means slow not stationary. Even with your limited mental faculties we have confidence that you can figure this game out; just think how well a genius like Tuco Benedicto Pacifico can do once he gets out of his own way. Got a sweet level 9 Core TB walkthrough coming up.

Retarded is when you sperg out and make 15 posts about how to optimize your homosexuality in response to a post talking about encounter design.

No, the point is that what I'm doing isn't close to optimal and I'm handling the encounters just fine.

The point is that you can't fucking read when the guy explicitly states that he's not talking about difficulty but you insist on making almost a full page of posts on your own talking solely about difficulty.

 

[Desiderius]

Alright let's look at a typical fight on Core TB in Drezen Fortress:



Let's get a major bone of contention out of the way early. They've designed the game around this thing stacking, with all that implies on DR bypassing. If you make the relic that aligns your weapons Good that's less of an issue, and there are other ways to align your weapons, but you can bypass a good bit of that and the cold iron stuff with this spell. It also lasts forever, so Nenio hooks us up at the beginning.



You also run into some hefty skill checks in Drezen. I'm using the Mobility one with Nenio but can't get the Athletics one on Lann who's my Athletics specialist. Usually if you've got a Mounted character their Mount can handle Athletics and of course the rider wants max Mobility. MC Alchemist can spread the love around and Drovier has an Aura to share them.



I made a mistake here trying this Athletics check without burning Sosiel's Domain abilties that help checks. If i had failed many of my buffs would have run down considerably, though most of what I have up in 20 mins or more. You can always leave tough checks for later, the penalty of an Athletics check is is usually time passing.



I've got my MC on scouting duty because that is what Archaeologist Tricksters are good at, but realizing about everything I'm doing Aru is optimized for. She gets Perception and Stealth bonuses by class level.



Trickery trivial on normal traps with Archaelogist Take Ten ability. Nice relief. Two Babaus look easy enough, but who knows what's behind.



Babau gets a little lucky before I can fire off Dazzling Display (picking up Vanish next level and eventually won't need with Mythic Stealth) but no biggie. Freedom of Movement is long-lasting and takes care of Daeran's Curse.



Nenio wins Initiative and Rainbow Pattern owns regular Demons but she doesn't have a ton of casts yet and there's only two I can see. She decides to delay. Her hat lets her Quickcast Haste should she need it.

Next: the fight, complete with one of Tuco Benedicto Pacifico's famous Fireballs to the face out of nowhere

 

[Desiderius]

The point is that you can't fucking read when the guy explicitly states that he's not talking about difficulty but you insist on making almost a full page of posts on your own talking solely about difficulty.

OK now you're going on permanent no exception ignore. This is unprecedented levels of retardation.

 

[Saravan]

And of course there is another screenshot novel. What is this, the third one? If you haven't noticed Tuco hasn't even responded to your first post out of the 15 you made this far but don't let that stop you.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

imagine sleeping in the middle of a siege

If you consider that most real-life sieges went on for weeks or even months, imagine not being prepared to.

Back to the point of content.

The point is that you can't fucking read when the guy explicitly states that he's not talking about difficulty but you insist on making almost a full page of posts on your own talking solely about difficulty.

My point was basically "Jesus Christ, give the players a breather every now and then". There's no need to turn every single fight in something that should require the full extent of your buffing capabilities.
Especially because you can have your "full range of buffs" only for so many fights before running out of them and requiring a rest. "Oh, it's easy, you can protect from that with that buff", "you can be more effective against that doing that other thing", "To deal with X you can simply used Y".
Yeah, none of these resources is infinite. At some point, especially when you are in the habit of resting as little as possible, you start running out of shit.
I DID beat every single encounter so far but there have been many I didn't exactly enjoy and I felt like I was basically expected to cross my fingers and pray things would work.

That aside, there's also the detail that almost everyone here is just handwaving dismissively as "Nah, you're imagining things" but it is a FACT that a lot of encounters here are extremely over-tuned. Tons of monsters and most of them with inflated stats and bloated HP.
And it's almost a comedic recurring gag how hopelessly doomed most NPC "helping you" are since they are usually blasted into pieces as soon as they take one single attack from one random enemy, since someone at Owlcat forgot to offer them the same benefits they conceded to the monsters.

 

[Delterius]

If you consider that most real-life sieges went on for weeks or even months, imagine not being prepared to.

oh yeah i remember that one time in the siege of candia where the ottomans teleported into the fortress

 

[ERYFKRAD]

dress

Some people can't differentiate

This

Magic user

From This

Dress

The reason which most casters don't use armor is simple. WE DON"T need it.

What are you on about, it's the same thing in a different colour.

 

[Shadenuat]

Drezen is very well designed, it's a pick your approach, different goals, a lot of hidden supplies for free rests Gauntlet, as a siege is supposed to be. It is extremely difficult by PKM and even unmodded IE standarts but is also extremely reasonable with every perception check removing some of the difficulty away. You will be kicking and screaming first time but you will learn to love it.