Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Gradenmayer]

Imagine not getting into the best cRPG of the decade because there's a black boi who doesn't like pussy. The conservative equivalent of an SJW who won't play a game because there's no transformers in it.

Always funny when these people click "let's bang" button with same-sex characters, and then go complaining to forums about game forcing them to take it up their bums without any warning.

 

[Cryomancer]

who need a salary a human can live on

Human dignity in USA...

gay and woke characters

Most companions are bisexual.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Human dignity in USA...

californians, much like slavs, aren't human tho

 

[ArchAngel]

Decided to peak reddit questions (I know my mistake)

Why people always ask this garbage question? Do they know that the Lich ritual involves the sacrifice of a innocent life?

Liches can be any alignment. Per the 2e ruleset, at least.

In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment.

Liches are basically turbo-autists who are beyond good and evil. They just care about their to-scale miniature model train sets magical research. However, they don't care about human life, so they're usually seen as evil based on their actions.

Though, yes, it requires a lot of humanoid blood to be shed. Including a virgin and some infants. Maybe they could have used orcs?

My main issue with this argument, which is to say Takamori's, not yours, is that "you do mean things" is not the definition of "evil" in these games usually. Sure they may say, "Evil is being selfish", but that's in the eye of the beholder despite the core conceit of the alignment system being black & white morality.

Is a lich who ascends by sacrificing only evil aligned people still evil? Golarion's lore is so retarded the proper answer would be, "Yes" but only because they replaced Sigil with the Boneyard and the Ao with Pharasma who hates Undead. But in terms of just pure alignment faggotry, I think it's heavily up for debate. And I know Owlcat tends to lean in the direction of providing different paths even if it isn't supported by the idiots who wrote the Pathfinder setting.

That is usually called Lawful Evil. You do Evil acts thinking it is for the greater good.

Also a character like Dexter only killed Evil people. He was still not considered a good guy.

Nah, a Lawful Evil character is like a corrupt official or lawyer. He abuses systems for his own selfish gains or malice.

He can be multiple things. News at 11

 

[Desiderius]

who need a salary a human can live on

Human dignity in USA...

gay and woke characters

Most companions are bisexual.

As if San Fran were in the USA. If you took a vote 90% would vote to secede. They have in effect already where they rule you as much as they rule us.

 

[Gradenmayer]

Decided to peak reddit questions (I know my mistake)

Why people always ask this garbage question? Do they know that the Lich ritual involves the sacrifice of a innocent life?

Liches can be any alignment. Per the 2e ruleset, at least.

In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment.

Liches are basically turbo-autists who are beyond good and evil. They just care about their to-scale miniature model train sets magical research. However, they don't care about human life, so they're usually seen as evil based on their actions.

Though, yes, it requires a lot of humanoid blood to be shed. Including a virgin and some infants. Maybe they could have used orcs?

My main issue with this argument, which is to say Takamori's, not yours, is that "you do mean things" is not the definition of "evil" in these games usually. Sure they may say, "Evil is being selfish", but that's in the eye of the beholder despite the core conceit of the alignment system being black & white morality.

Is a lich who ascends by sacrificing only evil aligned people still evil? Golarion's lore is so retarded the proper answer would be, "Yes" but only because they replaced Sigil with the Boneyard and the Ao with Pharasma who hates Undead. But in terms of just pure alignment faggotry, I think it's heavily up for debate. And I know Owlcat tends to lean in the direction of providing different paths even if it isn't supported by the idiots who wrote the Pathfinder setting.

That is usually called Lawful Evil. You do Evil acts thinking it is for the greater good.

Also a character like Dexter only killed Evil people. He was still not considered a good guy.

Nah, a Lawful Evil character is like a corrupt official or lawyer. He abuses systems for his own selfish gains or malice.

He can be multiple things. News at 11

Ye, let's not forget that he killed an innocent police officer, so he definitely doesn't fit into lawful, nor good. Chaotic neutral is more fitting.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

dexter is neutral evil
having an uncontrollable urge to murder people makes you evil, even if you typically kill evil people.

 

[Desiderius]

Watching TV is CN.

 

[Daedalos]

so I want to wield a 2handed sword, and I want to have a pretty good legend/mythic path, lawful good.

what class/path? I dont wanna play fighter/barbarian

Obviously paladin springs to mind, but is angel even good for that path? I wanna 2hand shit

 

[Cyberarmy]

so I want to wield a 2handed sword, and I want to have a pretty good legend/mythic path, lawful good.

what class/path? I dont wanna play fighter/barbarian

Obviously paladin springs to mind, but is angel even good for that path? I wanna 2hand shit

Go LG oracle, take Battle mystery, kick asses and take names.

Edit: You actualy become first cover guy with this build.

 

[Riel]

so I want to wield a 2handed sword, and I want to have a pretty good legend/mythic path, lawful good.

what class/path? I dont wanna play fighter/barbarian

Obviously paladin springs to mind, but is angel even good for that path? I wanna 2hand shit

Trickster seems to be great for melee! You can get many critical enhancing feats up to "enhanced enhanced enhanced critical strike"

 

[dacencora]

so I heard from Rusty and other fine fellows that this game is even more degenerate than kangmaker...

maybe if the game isn't a complete slog like the previous one and has better encounter design I'll get it in a few years when it's finally stable, complete and 75% off.

It is pretty degenerate, but the alpha was pretty promising. I'm starting to care less and less about the political shit anyways, so I'm just gonna enjoy the gameplay.

 

[Kaivokz]

I use LE as example for this because Evil characters that do evil acts for "greater good" are usually doing it for Order and Law thinking that those are more important than just doing Good.

"...as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.
The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then..." -Gygax (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&start=77)

You make a distinction between Law and Good as if the two could be separated. A truly Evil act which prioritizes "law" is nothing but Evil; what is natural is Good, what is unnatural is Evil. If one is mistaken about some fact, yet they still pursue the Natural Law, they are not Evil, but mistaken:

"But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. [...] Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?"

Then, a man who idolizes human law "for the greater good" (where the greater good is not Truth, Law, Human Flourishing, and so on) is plainly Evil, and a man who pursues Natural Order and Truth, but is mistaken about the facts of its pursuit because of his limited nature, is ultimately Good.

That ought to be the view of the Lawful Good.

A petty human law is described here in the PHB for 2e AD&D: "Characters who believe in law maintain that order, organization, and society are important, indeed vital, forces of the universe. The relationships between people and governments exist naturally. Lawful philosophers maintain that this order is not created by man but is a natural law of the universe. [...] For less philosophical types, lawfulness manifests itself in the belief that laws should be made and followed, if only to have understandable rules for society." p.64 This is a naive worldview and any goodness that falls out of it on an individual level will be accidental. Anyone who does not reflect upon Law at all and simply goes along with the rules of their society is amoral and should not have an alignment. If they intellectually grasp some aspect of Natural Law and try to live by it without realizing what it is, they are chaotic good. If they reflect upon it and choose to pervert it for base reasons, they are evil.

Many humans sadly fall under this category: "In addition to the alignments above, some things—particularly unintelligent monsters (killer plants, etc.) and animals—never bother with moral and ethical concerns." -AD&D 2e PHB p.66

Then, "lawful Evil" and "lawful Neutral" ought to be spelled as such, with a lower case 'L' to distinguish it from the Natural Law, which is synonymous with Good.

You are not evil because you are selfish or want best for others, you are evil when you do evil acts.

Alignment was not intended to be the naive consequentialism implied by your distinction between intention and act.

 

[Desiderius]

so I want to wield a 2handed sword, and I want to have a pretty good legend/mythic path, lawful good.

what class/path? I dont wanna play fighter/barbarian

Obviously paladin springs to mind, but is angel even good for that path? I wanna 2hand shit

You're not going to find a better seting for Paladin. Aeon or Angel works, but probably want to save Angel for Oracle or Cleric playthrough so you can merge.

Devilbane Cleric wears Heavy and gets Frightful Aspect way early so very good with the two-handers, and there's a great Fauchard for LG for sale in the main town.

 

[Daedalos]

out of cleric, oracle and pala, which is the most fun then? I want a fighter with 2hand as i said, that can handle himself in battle, and cast insane spells.

Cleric I guess? merging spells seems OP btw.. dont wanna play the game as faceroll either.. eh..

And the Aeon path what dopes that give compared to Angel? What about Azata?

 

[Desiderius]

what is natural is Good

Morality
BY MATTHEW ARNOLD
We cannot kindle when we will
The fire which in the heart resides;
The spirit bloweth and is still,
In mystery our soul abides.
But tasks in hours of insight will'd
Can be through hours of gloom fulfill'd.

With aching hands and bleeding feet
We dig and heap, lay stone on stone;
We bear the burden and the heat
Of the long day, and wish 'twere done.
Not till the hours of light return,
All we have built do we discern.

Then, when the clouds are off the soul,
When thou dost bask in Nature's eye,
Ask, how she view'd thy self-control,
Thy struggling, task'd morality—
Nature, whose free, light, cheerful air,
Oft made thee, in thy gloom, despair.

And she, whose censure thou dost dread,
Whose eye thou wast afraid to seek,
See, on her face a glow is spread,
A strong emotion on her cheek!
"Ah, child!" she cries, "that strife divine,
Whence was it, for it is not mine?

"There is no effort on my brow—
I do not strive, I do not weep;
I rush with the swift spheres and glow
In joy, and when I will, I sleep.
Yet that severe, that earnest air,
I saw, I felt it once—but where?

"I knew not yet the gauge of time,
Nor wore the manacles of space;
I felt it in some other clime,
I saw it in some other place.
'Twas when the heavenly house I trod,
And lay upon the breast of God."

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43595/morality

The Good is more than merely natural.

Spoiler

 

[Desiderius]

out of cleric, oracle and pala, which is the most fun then? I want a fighter with 2hand as i said, that can handle himself in battle, and cast insane spells.

Cleric I guess? merging spells seems OP btw.. dont wanna play the game as faceroll either.. eh..

And the Aeon path what dopes that give compared to Angel? What about Azata?

I'd save Azata for casting - but if you ever wanted to make Challenge Evil a real spell Azata can get it done.

 

[Takamori]

Well there is:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich

A good lich has existed since 2E - https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Archlich

I lost my shit its basically a lich with a angel halo

 

[Pink Eye]

Cleric I guess?

Two Handed Crusader - one of the cleric's archetypes. Has better BAB than base cleric. Gets fewer spell slots, but can still reach 9th level spells. Don't think it'd be a problem with Mythic Spellbook merging.

 

[Desiderius]

Azata would have alignment issues with Pal come to think of it.

Aeon reflects it's mastery of time in battle by getting a double or even triple action economy. I lot of Swift actions/spells, spells/abilities that buff and debuff at the same time, Aeon Bane buffs your damage while having super Dispelling Strike (char level + mythic lvl; dispel, greater) built in.

 

[Desiderius]

Cleric I guess?

Two Handed Crusader - one of the cleric's archetypes. Has better BAB than base cleric. Gets fewer spell slots, but can still reach 9th level spells. Don't think it'd be a problem with Mythic Spellbook merging.

It doesn't have better BAB. Pretty much only for Shield Bashing. Devilbane better for two-handing. Can even Scribe scrolls with Arcana bonus.

 

[LannTheStupid]

What class are you going to roll LannTheStupid Any cool ideas?

A Thassilonian Specialist Sloth LE Wizard. Will play on Hard on Steam for the achievements. O, and it will be Kingmaker.

When I finish this run Wrath will be in top-notch condition I'm sure.

 

[The_Mask]

so I want to wield a 2handed sword, and I want to have a pretty good legend/mythic path, lawful good.

what class/path? I dont wanna play fighter/barbarian

Obviously paladin springs to mind, but is angel even good for that path? I wanna 2hand shit

Fighter -> Two-Handed Fighter is arguably the best for STR.

For DEX you'll have to experiment yourself.

 

[Pink Eye]

14 DEX is what you want if you're going heavy armor. Though, if picking Base fighter. It gets perks to mitigate the penalty of DEX. So going 14-16 DEX isn't a bad idea. If, however, you're not rolling base fighter. You want your DEX at 14. Since that's the number which caps out for heavy armor users.

 

[Kaivokz]

The Good is more than merely natural.

"The light of reason is placed by nature in every man to guide him in his acts."

What is good for man, tree or bird is determined by its nature; any evil comes from rejecting reality by denying these truths. The Good is all that there is.