Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[gurugeorge]

And now s/he reveals their attention span of a guppy. Bingo.

Spoken like a true autist

 

[gurugeorge]

And now s/he reveals their attention span of a guppy. Bingo.

Not necessarily. One's attention becomes stretched in more directions as one accretes more attachments.

Exactly, and at some point it stops being fun and starts being a chore.

It's analogous to the argument about consumer choice. Consumer choice! Yay! Great thing!

Well, yeah, up to a point, but beyond that point it just freezes you and you grab whatever.

Everything has a cost, with everything there's a cost/benefit balance. Beyond a certain point, complexity in a game just isn't worth the effort because it's becoming like a second job. And the threshold for that isn't necessarily dictated by intelligence levels - in fact, it might be the other way round, the person who cuts their losses might be the more intelligent.

Ofc if you really love the thing, go for it. All I'm saying is that I reserve the right not to pay the price of continued attention and mental effort if I'm losing interest in the overall game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, Pathfinder also allows for unlimited casts of cantrips. The real method 5E fixed it, IMO, was making cantrips scale to your level so they always remain relevant.

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, Pathfinder also allows for unlimited casts of cantrips. The real method 5E fixed it, IMO, was making cantrips scale to your level so they always remain relevant.

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

Unless you're an Arcane Trickster killing trashmobs, I take it.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, Pathfinder also allows for unlimited casts of cantrips. The real method 5E fixed it, IMO, was making cantrips scale to your level so they always remain relevant.

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

Unless you're an Arcane Trickster killing trashmobs, I take it.

You can kill them three times faster with a bow. You’re casting real spells vs high AC anyway.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, Pathfinder also allows for unlimited casts of cantrips. The real method 5E fixed it, IMO, was making cantrips scale to your level so they always remain relevant.

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

Unless you're an Arcane Trickster killing trashmobs, I take it.

You can kill them three times faster with a bow. You’re casting real spells vs high AC anyway.

Eh, if you can hit them with a bow and full caster BAB then more power to you. But odds are touch AC is gonna be more doable and it still delivers most of the damage, ie sneak attack's. So you'll be killing them anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

Eh, if you can hit them with a bow and full caster BAB then more power to you. But odds are touch AC is gonna be more doable and it still delivers most of the damage, ie sneak attack's. So you'll be killing them anyway.

We've been over this a million times. The one interesting thing we found was that by mid-game you often also have enough real spells to last you as well so there's no need for cantrips there either.

Bottom line is that cantrips are ever only one per round, while weapons get iteratives, haste, speed, and/or rapid/manyshot. If you're counting on sneaks for damage then multiplying them with extra attax far outweighs the touch AC difference even if you aren't taking advantage of all the ways to make mob AC nearly irrelevant. The fact that the game has more broken bows/javs than you could ever use is only gravy.

 

[Delterius]

Hitting a second attack from a Wizard using a bow without buffs? I know they are trash mobs but still.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I don't use cantrips on my AT past very early levels. Loot compensates for any real deficiencies. In any situation where I need more than a bow but less than a memorized spell, I utilize my princely horde of scrolls and wands.

 

[Sykar]

Eh, if you can hit them with a bow and full caster BAB then more power to you. But odds are touch AC is gonna be more doable and it still delivers most of the damage, ie sneak attack's. So you'll be killing them anyway.

We've been over this a million times. The one interesting thing we found was that by mid-game you often also have enough real spells to last you as well so there's no need for cantrips there either.

Bottom line is that cantrips are ever only one per round, while weapons get iteratives, haste, speed, and/or rapid/manyshot. If you're counting on sneaks for damage then multiplying them with extra attax far outweighs the touch AC difference even if you aren't taking advantage of all the ways to make mob AC nearly irrelevant. The fact that the game has more broken bows/javs than you could ever use is only gravy.

Solution: quickened cantrips!

 

[Desiderius]

Hitting a second attack from a Wizard using a bow without buffs? I know they are trash mobs but still.

Yes

 

[Desiderius]

I’ve only played pure AT once - I used to give Octavia 4 Rogue lvls, now I put her in melee - but the best Wiz poaster on Steam got in this argument with me and I convinced him to test it. He came back saying my Rogue lvls were unnecessary but that unexpectedly weapon was way better than cantrip on pure caster AT.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, I prefer to keep the Tricksters as quasi full casters. Losing just one caster level lets them retain more tactical options, like crowd control. Plus, a thassilonian trickster has as many spellcasts and the same spell access as a Sorcerer. Sacrificing 3 more levels of DCs and spell access is just too much for me.

I can imagine a lot of opportunities where super op weapons offer a better opportunity cost than touch AC cantrips. Especially later on. Just saying one of the nice things about being AT for me is those 4 early levels of not standing around doing nothing against every trash mob.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I prefer to keep the Tricksters as quasi full casters. Losing just one caster level lets them retain more tactical options, like crowd control. Plus, a thassilonian trickster has as many spellcasts and the same spell access as a Sorcerer. Sacrificing 3 more levels of DCs and spell access is just too much for me.

I can imagine a lot of opportunities where super op weapons offer a better opportunity cost than touch AC cantrips. Especially later on. Just saying one of the nice things about being AT for me is those 4 early levels of not standing around doing nothing against every trash mob.

Early on sure, although probably better off buying the Snowball wand if that’s what you want to be doing. I just use other companions until midgame since Wiz is weak early. Jub has a quest at Trobold so that’s just natural.

 

[raptor_jesus]

I’ve only played pure AT once - I used to give Octavia 4 Rogue lvls, now I put her in melee - but the best Wiz poaster on Steam got in this argument with me and I convinced him to test it. He came back saying my Rogue lvls were unnecessary but that unexpectedly weapon was way better than cantrip on pure caster AT.

I mean, yes you will get more damage from multiple attacks assuming you hit because iteratives. But... why would you go for more rogue levels? Why wouldn't you just say "Fuck AT" and go full wizard if you were gonna commit to anything unusual?

 

[Desiderius]

I’ve only played pure AT once - I used to give Octavia 4 Rogue lvls, now I put her in melee - but the best Wiz poaster on Steam got in this argument with me and I convinced him to test it. He came back saying my Rogue lvls were unnecessary but that unexpectedly weapon was way better than cantrip on pure caster AT.

I mean, yes you will get more damage from multiple attacks assuming you hit because iteratives. But... why would you go for more rogue levels? Why wouldn't you just say "Fuck AT" and go full wizard if you were gonna commit to anything unusual?

Because they're the best melee lvls in the game for DEX-based.

Ranged R4/AT isn't as great as I thought it was initially but there are a lot of upsides and you still get to Surprise Spells at lvl 17 which are what are game-breaking. You don't really need them before then in any case. Basically to me it comes down to whether you're already getting Debilitating Strike from someone else or not. -2 to mob AC on all attax is almost half a difficulty level. Of course it's -4 for you so you can land those iteratives.

As for weapons on Rogue 1/AT you don't just get iteratives, you get haste/speed and Rapid Shot. Of course you also get the +to hit/damage and other bonuses that weapons give you. +2 shock Jav is on lvl 3 of Depths.

Full WIZ isn't unusual for MC, but usually when you're talking AT you're talking Octavia builds. MC AT is just a low maintenance solid choice, with the upside of surprise spells if you're a nuker.

 

[purpleblob]

Off topic but Desiderius - do you mind sharing your protagonist's portrait?

 

[Desiderius]

 

[Desiderius]

 

[Sarathiour]

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

Speakinh of which, does someone have a strategy to make cleve survive the fight, apart from dwnranking difficulty into oblivion ? Siroke pop just next to him,genrally win initiative by far and insta-gib him. I can't have any buff whatsoever, beacause finishing the damn book take a lot of time, and nearly all of them run out before the fight.

 

[Daidre]

Cleve's quest has a necklace that more or less does that but by then you've got better things to do with that slot. A strategic Demoralize, Daze, or even Flare early can be better than it looks, but if you're using cantrips for damage you're missing some better options for your action economy.

Speakinh of which, does someone have a strategy to make cleve survive the fight, apart from dwnranking difficulty into oblivion ? Siroke pop just next to him,genrally win initiative by far and insta-gib him. I can't have any buff whatsoever, beacause finishing the damn book take a lot of time, and nearly all of them run out before the fight.

Switch off TB mode? In RTwP it is easy enouph to body block her before she hits the mage since moving is free.

 

[Sarathiour]

Switch off TB mode? In RTwP it is easy enouph to body block her before she hits the mage since moving is free.

Without mod, you don't have control over blackmoore, and the cutscene end with siroke within melee range of him. And since Cleve cast but don't move an inch, i can't body block shit.

 

[Desiderius]

Realize that initiative is the most important stat in the game.

If you don’t feel like making the game too easy, you can just design one companion for this quest since you have so many.

Jaethal as straight Inquisitor is the natural choice since she gets WIS to Initiative and Demons aren’t immune to Fear so she can just Mass Castigate them. Use Bard Fear song for backup.

 

[Sarathiour]

Realize that initiative is the most important stat in the game.

Currently replaying with a SS Mc, i'll see how it goes this time.