Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Average Manatee]

+4 DC is not small. Depending on difficulty it can double the chances of landing or reduce the chances of missing by up to 80%. Once you get Mythic she'll be high 20s and tops out at low 30s (and there are ways to get it higher if you get creative), which is good back-up for your Divine source in case it misses.

You're demanding 2 feats and a mythic for this now. That's a HUGE price.

Everything that matters (i.e., an AC >80 that I actually struggle to hit without a round of buffing) will have saves of 30+, probably 40+. So making the DC go from 20 to 24 or 24 to 28 is pointless. Easy enemies I don't care much about, in fact you can see me hitting them above (having 3 characters with archons aura around 20-25 DC hits them fairly reliably).

-2 AoE to AB/Saves/AC. You guys all jizz your pants for +2 AB from Mutation Warrior. That -2 AC alone is +2 AB for your whole team and that doesn't even get to the -2 on Saves (+2 DC for whole team) and -2 AB (+2 AC for whole team).

Never used mutation warrior lol, not even a good class IMO, it's just the fighter cope class. Again, the problem is that you're only very minorly increasing the chance of applying -2, to enemies that are already easy to hit.

And it's a long-lasting passive (no action econ needed, even Free Action) effect. Pretty much uniquely you can even put on + Evo DC items to cast it then replace them and the DC stays high for whole duration.

Yeah it's great, but spending so much time boosting it is a waste.

Seelah's job is *not* to kill things, although she's fine at it. Her job is to get Mark on and tank with Fear Immunity, and she does it well. You have more than enough companions who can kill things and usually MC is main killer.

Oh but she is, she's my 2nd best killer after Wenduag and commonly wipes out 2 enemies per turn. My normal turn order is me w/ guarded hearth, then attack or spell (granted I could kill everything with spells but that's boring so...), then Cam w/ evil eye, then Seelah using mark and attacking the boss, then Wenduag using quarry and charging in for her own attacks. Probably half the time the boss doesn't survive to Wenduag's turn and having her around is overkill.

If you get Mythic Initiative she won't be flat-footed much, and with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield being Flat-footed doesn't have much effect on her AC either.

She has a mount so I don't even pay attention to her armor and she get's a nice fauchard.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

I tried straight Eldritch Scoundrel, but it just wasn't cutting it. I then did ES4/Slayer, which was much better but not quite there. Eventually I switched over to ES4/Vivisectionist like a basic bitch and it's finally satisfying. I'll probably stick with that.

 

[Desiderius]

+4 DC is not small. Depending on difficulty it can double the chances of landing or reduce the chances of missing by up to 80%. Once you get Mythic she'll be high 20s and tops out at low 30s (and there are ways to get it higher if you get creative), which is good back-up for your Divine source in case it misses.

You're demanding 2 feats and a mythic for this now. That's a HUGE price.

Everything that matters (i.e., an AC >80 that I actually struggle to hit without a round of buffing) will have saves of 30+, probably 40+. So making the DC go from 20 to 24 or 24 to 28 is pointless. Easy enemies I don't care much about, in fact you can see me hitting them above (having 3 characters with archons aura around 20-25 DC hits them fairly reliably).

-2 AoE to AB/Saves/AC. You guys all jizz your pants for +2 AB from Mutation Warrior. That -2 AC alone is +2 AB for your whole team and that doesn't even get to the -2 on Saves (+2 DC for whole team) and -2 AB (+2 AC for whole team).

Never used mutation warrior lol, not even a good class IMO, it's just the fighter cope class. Again, the problem is that you're only very minorly increasing the chance of applying -2, to enemies that are already easy to hit.

And it's a long-lasting passive (no action econ needed, even Free Action) effect. Pretty much uniquely you can even put on + Evo DC items to cast it then replace them and the DC stays high for whole duration.

Yeah it's great, but spending so much time boosting it is a waste.

Seelah's job is *not* to kill things, although she's fine at it. Her job is to get Mark on and tank with Fear Immunity, and she does it well. You have more than enough companions who can kill things and usually MC is main killer.

Oh but she is, she's my 2nd best killer after Wenduag and commonly wipes out 2 enemies per turn. My normal turn order is me w/ guarded hearth, then attack or spell (granted I could kill everything with spells but that's boring so...), then Cam w/ evil eye, then Seelah using mark and attacking the boss, then Wenduag using quarry and charging in for her own attacks. Probably half the time the boss doesn't survive to Wenduag's turn and having her around is overkill.

If you get Mythic Initiative she won't be flat-footed much, and with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield being Flat-footed doesn't have much effect on her AC either.

She has a mount so I don't even pay attention to her armor and she get's a nice fauchard.

It's not a huge price for tank Seelah. What else does she need? I had her at 30 DC and I'm not very good at jacking up DCs. On Unfair that's going to hit a decent number of regular mobs but of course not many bosses. On any other difficulty it's in the sweet spot. Understand that I'm also constantly debuffing saves with other passives like Frightful Presence and the Will Save debuff Belt along with Sicken effects wherever I can get them.

I was casting some Holy Whispers for awhile as well which are kind of underwhelming on Unfair (not enough Good melee among the companions either, though Ulfrig and a Good MC would change that) and since I didn't take Abundant on her she didn't have many slots. On Unfair the Evo Focus plan isn't awful but I could definitely see going a different direction if you wanted to Shield Bash or use her as an Intimidator to supplement the tanking.

If you understand how the math works +4 DC is not minor (your assumption that you can't get into a range where it hits is not quite correct but it does take tight play), which is why DC enhancement effects are so rare. It's only a waste if you're not in that range.

You've mentioned you, Wend, Cam, and Seelah. Are you playing four-man? Obviously that would change the way you'd use her somewhat, though when she tanked Unfair Playful for me she effectively soloed the fight one-handed anyway while rest of party was fighting Shadows. There are no bulletsponges so there's way more sources of damage available than you could ever use.

We've been over the Mount. Horse is notoriously not all that tanky (certainly giving her TSS level and +3 Tower at lvl 6 gives you a far higher AC character than the Horse) and splashing Beast Rider sets everything back a level (including Mark). Divine Weapon Bond is the best Weapon Enchanting ability in the game and a defining feature of the class so something I'm not willing to give up from a pure enjoyment standpoint. It surprised me how good it was simply straight-up.

I spent three years lecturing people about not needing a tank and you didn't really in P:K. But comparing my first Wrath Unfair run to this one it did make things a great deal smoother and Seelah can in fact get there, especially with TTT Mythics to help.

As far as easily hitting things Hearth is once per rest. It was something I picked up on Sosiel late and the game gives you plenty of rest to recharge it. I'm kind of with Daidre though in not wanting to exploit the amount of rests the game gives you too much and in places like the DLC you need some staying power without it, so things like Reg's Aura (3 per rest), Mark, and Inspiring Command are more my style.

 

[Desiderius]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

I tried straight Eldritch Scoundrel, but it just wasn't cutting it. I then did ES4/Slayer, which was much better but not quite there. Eventually I switched over to ES4/Vivisectionist like a basic bitch and it's finally satisfying. I'll probably stick with that.

For straight ES it's important to be fighting Reduced since it's all upside and to use things like True Strike if necessary to make sure Double Debilitation lands. Once it does he should be able to go off. Make sure to have Vitals up as much as possible. Slayer doesn't get that and it gives you more Sneaks total than Vivi (1/3 + 1/4 = 7/12). Illusion Magic increases survivability but he should have decent AC with Reduce, Shield spell, and eventually Archmage Armor.

One thing I've done is to make him a Transmuter (again not great for beating saves on Unfair, but really good below that with Darven's Hat giving Swift Slows) and giving him the fire damage items to combine with Obsidian Flow to lay down Difficult Terrain and do some decent AoE damage. Feather Step, Mass means your team can move while opponents are all slowed down. This works well with Fear effects.

I think Tar Pool is Transmutation too and has a thing where the enemy has to spend a turn cleaning off Tar? Been a long time since I've had Wolj in my group much at that point so haven't tested it in awhile.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's not a huge price for tank Seelah. What else does she need? I had her at 30 DC and I'm not very good at jacking up DCs. On Unfair that's going to hit a decent number of regular mobs but of course not many bosses. On any other difficulty it's in the sweet spot. Understand that I'm also constantly debuffing saves with other passives like Frightful Presence and the Will Save debuff Belt along with Sicken effects wherever I can get them.

Boon companion
Power Attack
Outflank
Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Weapon Focus (Fauchard)
Improved Critical (Fauchard)
Combat Reflexes
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
+ one mythic feat spent on Lunge

Is what I went with. OK, maybe you don't like the fauchard memes. But I'll take 15-20 critstorms over any other offense every time.

Understand that I'm also constantly debuffing saves with other passives like Frightful Presence and the Will Save debuff Belt along with Sicken effects wherever I can get them.

Are you sure these are even working? I use them too. Problem is that Archon's only works the first time your aura touches them and these two are also auras, so unless they are longer range its not up to you whether one or the other goes first.

If you understand how the math works +4 DC is not minor (your assumption that you can't get into a range where it hits is not quite correct but it does take tight play), which is why DC enhancement effects are so rare. It's only a waste if you're not in that range.

When you already have 3 people with it, the chance isn't being much improved. Either enemies have >30 saves and 0% chance to fail or 20ish and have to take 3 chances to fail at like 20%. Making one of those chances 40% isn't a huge benefit. A 20% higher chance of -2 to enemy stats works out to an average of -0.4 to enemy stats.

You've mentioned you, Wend, Cam, and Seelah.

+Daeran and Nenio.

We've been over the Mount. Horse is notoriously not all that tanky (certainly giving her TSS level and +3 Tower at lvl 6 gives you a far higher AC character than the Horse) and splashing Beast Rider sets everything back a level (including Mark). Divine Weapon Bond is the best Weapon Enchanting ability in the game and a defining feature of the class so something I'm not willing to give up from a pure enjoyment standpoint. It surprised me how good it was simply straight-up.

Mounts are so insanely useful that I can't live without them. Whenever a character doesn't have a mount they flat out don't even contribute in combat because just having a mount is like super-pounce, you get 100' movement with a full attack at the end of it that doesn't need a straight line. By the time a non-mounted character gets to the fight the fight is over.

re: Beast Rider, aside from the fact that tripping an enemy might as well equal killing it (nothing is likely to survive the AoOs trying to stand up), Boar also has +6 AC over Horse. That's a pretty decent gain for a 1 level dip. I miss not having Mark but I can bear it for 1 level to have an awesome pet all the way in Shield Maze.

As far as easily hitting things Hearth is once per rest. It was something I picked up on Sosiel late and the game gives you plenty of rest to recharge it. I'm kind of with @Daidre though in not wanting to exploit the amount of rests the game gives you too much and in places like the DLC you need some staying power without it, so things like Reg's Aura (3 per rest), Mark, and Inspiring Command are more my style.

Oh yeah, I only use it for bosses and try to avoid rest spamming. If anything I'm too hesitant to spend game time and miss events a lot.

 

[Yosharian]

So...why can't I kill mythic enemies? I noticed that if I reduce a mythic enemy to below zero health, they don't die and instead become untargetable. Then after a bit they get full health and fuck me over with a bunch of powerful spells. What's up with that? I don't see anything in their info page that talks about that.

Yeah that's normal, they have this ability that resurrects them once, unfortunately it makes them invulnerable for at least the rest of the turn while the process plays out.

Super fucking annoying and honestly a shit mechanic

 

[Haplo]

It's Leper's Smile where I find you've really got not much capability to damage them through those resistance. Past that swarms just don't scale as fast as your damage output to them does and their damage to you stays fairly constant.

Leper's Smile Swarms are trivial with Blunt weapons (...and some Confusion resistance).

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

What's a good cheese strat for dealing with Eternal Guardians? They have a bunch of immunities due to being undead so I can't hit them with my usually problem solvers. I managed to kill one with Ember's rays and my MC's Finnean Mace, but it takes a while and is a bit of a war of attrition, especially if it pulls a crit out its arse and instantly gibs my main character.

 

[scytheavatar]

What's a good cheese strat for dealing with Eternal Guardians? They have a bunch of immunities due to being undead so I can't hit them with my usually problem solvers. I managed to kill one with Ember's rays and my MC's Finnean Mace, but it takes a while and is a bit of a war of attrition, especially if it pulls a crit out its arse and instantly gibs my main character.

Why are you playing this game with no Protective Luck?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Because I only found out about it much later.
I think I looked at it and went "only one round? That doesn't seem worth it" without realizing that I could use Cackle to keep it up indefinitely.
Kind of wish I had picked it up. Next hex Ember or Camelia is getting is that.

 

[scytheavatar]

And now you know why those characters suck and nobody uses them. Why non rider melees suck in general for this game.

Just the guy poasting shots of destroying Unfair with them for four months.

Reg has Domains via Godclaw Order. They're good, especially at Swift speed. Main reason to play Cleric. Unlike Cleric he gets up to three of them.

He also has a unique Aura that gives +3 Morale AB/Dam/AC. AoE is good. Morale AC is rare. Choose Nobility Domain for (essentially infinite use) Inspiring Command and that's +5 rare AoE AC (along with Insight AB/Dam which isn't trivial).

People who don't know the game suck.

Greybor doesn't suck either since Slayer is an outstanding class but he's often redundant with either MC or other companions or with Aru if you know how to take advantage of Slayer skills side.

My standard is how good the character is vs a mercenary clone, and any mercenary Hellknight will be way better than Regill. You really want to be a Sanctified Slayer as a Hellknight to get the most out of your domains and you want way more Charisma than 14. Plus all Dex melee builds suck, no exceptions, for numerous reasons that should be blatant for any experienced player. Similarly you can easily make an Slayer merc that is WAYYYYYYY better than Greybor., simply from how Spawn Slayer and Deliverer is superior to base Slayer.

 

[scytheavatar]

Because I only found out about it much later.
I think I looked at it and went "only one round? That doesn't seem worth it" without realizing that I could use Cackle to keep it up indefinitely.
Kind of wish I had picked it up. Next hex Ember or Camelia is getting is that.

Then your next best option is to use Displacement. The Eternal Guardians are super annoying but you already know you can beat them in an war of attrition. Just wait to roll all the 20.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Desiderius Woljif's offensive casting as an ES is useless to me. My MC is an AT, and I have both Daeran and Ember in my standard line up. At ES4 I still have 2 casts of a Mirror Image, even if they are only 1d4+1. Vivi buffs do everything else I would be using on him with some nice extras, and the benefit of way more sneaks and feats. The biggest loss is debilitation progression, but oh well.

 

[Haplo]

Plus all Dex melee builds suck, no exceptions, for numerous reasons that should be blatant for any experienced player.

That's pushing it in Wrath.

Dex melee is actually quite strong here. Initiative is important.

Even more so with a certain Mythic Path and Trick choice. I'd quite confidently say these are the strongest melee builds with these choices, period.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Because I only found out about it much later.
I think I looked at it and went "only one round? That doesn't seem worth it" without realizing that I could use Cackle to keep it up indefinitely.
Kind of wish I had picked it up. Next hex Ember or Camelia is getting is that.

Then your next best option is to use Displacement. The Eternal Guardians are super annoying but you already know you can beat them in an war of attrition. Just wait to roll all the 20.

Yeah, I might have to. Good thing I have some touch spells I guess.
I suppose I could use the Wandering Hex Mythic Feat to switch to Protective Luck.
I'll lose Evil Eye, but then again it hasn't been that useful against magic enemy types because they're either immune or pass their will saves.

 

[Cyberarmy]

What's a good cheese strat for dealing with Eternal Guardians? They have a bunch of immunities due to being undead so I can't hit them with my usually problem solvers. I managed to kill one with Ember's rays and my MC's Finnean Mace, but it takes a while and is a bit of a war of attrition, especially if it pulls a crit out its arse and instantly gibs my main character.

You really need a good tank for play if you play war of attrition with them, either immune to crits or takes less damage from them. Or surround them with summons and blast them with rays. (Edit battering blast and snowball wrecks him easly)

 

[volklore]

Its not really lost, though. Finesse Training, Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, even some Mage Armor and Mirror Image casts. Alchemist gains little from last 4 levels.

It's not the last 4 levels but being 4 levels behind the entire game that hurts. That's getting spells like Echolocation or being able to offload some of Nenio's haste castings onto Woljif practically a whole chapter later. Also Transformation is nice to have ASAP if you plan to (ab-)use it on a part with a lot of mid-BAB characters (and of course pets), would rather not wait until level 20 for it and would rather have the ability to really spam it on everyone.

I mean, the game is a fucking cakewalk if you make your whole party from scratch. Probably would need to be brought back down to 4 slots with less xp to retain challenge.

 

[Haplo]

What's a good cheese strat for dealing with Eternal Guardians? They have a bunch of immunities due to being undead so I can't hit them with my usually problem solvers. I managed to kill one with Ember's rays and my MC's Finnean Mace, but it takes a while and is a bit of a war of attrition, especially if it pulls a crit out its arse and instantly gibs my main character.

Forge the Bane of Spirit relic ring.
One of the things I always do before I go exploring in Act 3 (plus Clemency of Shadows ring... and possibly some other relics, like Grave Singer, Mallander's Insult, Shroud of Eternal Hunger...).

Spending time on this also means I usually reach Mythic Rank 4 farily early, before doing much party exploration.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I killed all four of them the hard way. Just used Haste and displacement on my MC tank while everyone shot at it or hit it with magic. Seelah tried helping but she isn't as tanky as my mount so she needed healing.
Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

 

[PapaPetro]

I killed all four of them the hard way. Just used Haste and displacement on my MC tank while everyone shot at it or hit it with magic. Seelah tried helping but she isn't as tanky as my mount so she needed healing.
Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

Is there an AI mod or something that makes the monsters/NPCs more wily? I always felt more intelligent/wiser monsters would figure to stop the grug tactics attacking the frontline tank and go after mages, then healers, then finish off the vulnerable tank.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Boon companion

Is your Seelah a full Paladin? If so, why are you giving her Boon Companion? A Paladin in Wrath is a class with full pet progression.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I killed all four of them the hard way. Just used Haste and displacement on my MC tank while everyone shot at it or hit it with magic. Seelah tried helping but she isn't as tanky as my mount so she needed healing.
Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

Is there an AI mod or something that makes the monsters/NPCs more wily? I always felt more intelligent/wiser monsters would figure to stop the grug tactics attacking the frontline tank and go after mages, then healers, then finish off the vulnerable tank.

They do tend to go after your squishies and ignore the tanks though. I've seen them make a bee-line to my mages and archers if they have the chance. Hence why having a triceratops mount is so useful; you plop it in the doorway and bam, instant bottleneck.
Its how I fought most of the encounters in Ivory Sanctum and killed the last Guardian.
Also if you put someone squishier than your tank into combat like Greybor or Woljif the enemy will turn around and attack them.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

What's a good cheese strat for dealing with Eternal Guardians? They have a bunch of immunities due to being undead so I can't hit them with my usually problem solvers. I managed to kill one with Ember's rays and my MC's Finnean Mace, but it takes a while and is a bit of a war of attrition, especially if it pulls a crit out its arse and instantly gibs my main character.

Forge the Bane of Spirit relic ring.
One of the things I always do before I go exploring in Act 3 (plus Clemency of Shadows ring... and possibly some other relics, like Grave Singer, Mallander's Insult, Shroud of Eternal Hunger...).

Spending time on this also means I usually reach Mythic Rank 4 farily early, before doing much party exploration.

I already used it to make bane of flesh. I didn't like the penalty to paralysis resistance.
Sadly, I couldn't put it on my MC because he already has a ring of summoning and +4 AC ring.
Maybe I'll give it to Seelah or Camellia because they keep getting downed.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius Woljif's offensive casting as an ES is useless to me. My MC is an AT, and I have both Daeran and Ember in my standard line up. At ES4 I still have 2 casts of a Mirror Image, even if they are only 1d4+1. Vivi buffs do everything else I would be using on him with some nice extras, and the benefit of way more sneaks and feats. The biggest loss is debilitation progression, but oh well.

ES has more Sneaks with Vitals. Vivi Bite is probably better now than it was with the Natural Attack fixes, and you'll eventually get to Grand Mutagen which is very nice. So if you want the Infusion buffs no doubt ES4/Vivi16 is also a solid choice.

 

[PapaPetro]

I killed all four of them the hard way. Just used Haste and displacement on my MC tank while everyone shot at it or hit it with magic. Seelah tried helping but she isn't as tanky as my mount so she needed healing.
Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

Is there an AI mod or something that makes the monsters/NPCs more wily? I always felt more intelligent/wiser monsters would figure to stop the grug tactics attacking the frontline tank and go after mages, then healers, then finish off the vulnerable tank.

They do tend to go after your squishies and ignore the tanks though. I've seen them make a bee-line to my mages and archers if they have the chance. Hence why having a triceratops mount is so useful; you plop it in the doorway and bam, instant bottleneck.
Its how I fought most of the encounters in Ivory Sanctum and killed the last Guardian.
Also if you put someone squishier than your tank into combat like Greybor or Woljif the enemy will turn around and attack them.

Yeah that might explain things. I usually spam summons/pet companions to gun up the pathfinding to maintain the frontline. It works too well as a tactic as my Spell Slingers/Archers/Alchemists/Enlarged Reachers/Sneak Attackers (cough Arcane Trickster cough) make short work of everything from the bleachers.
Would like to see more front line breakthroughs from the AI, maybe if they could use tumble/Acrobatics through occupied spaces or have enemy spellcasters used more tactical uses of Dimension Door to put their allies in better positions (or pull squishy PCs into the thick of the melee).

Ethereal monsters come to mind as they can just b-line to your squish.