Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Yes but did you see all of these new and incredibly original archetypes that:

1)add sneak to base class
2) Add summons to base class
3) Copy pasted some some abilities from another class, sometimes the abilities might even gets renamed if Owlcats were feeling extra ambitious that day

Must really suck to have to make up random shit to keep yourself feeling miserable.

The two new Archetypes are the opposite of that.

Shield Block is a completely unique ability now exclusive to Fighter (where it belongs) and perfectly addresses a hole in the original design without trivializing it:

Unfair nat 20s on tanks.

TSS didn’t really do this (though it’s a fine class in its own right and was already on a Companion in PF anyway) because nat 20s don’t care about extra AC.

Crits (1 in 400) are whatever but you’ll regularly get hit even with 300 AC and some things hit hard enough for that to matter with Unfair stats and doubling. Protective Luck eats a whole additional action econ so defeats the purpose of having a tank.

DR effects apply before Unfair doubling so will be interesting to see where Shield Block applies in the order. Unlike previous DR abilities it’s also a percentage so kicks in more the more it’s needed.

Let’s say you’ve got 20 DR and get hit for 100.

Shield Block: .8 x 100 = 80

DR: 80 - 20 = 60

Unfair: 60 x 2 = 120

Saving 80 damage, DR alone saves 40

Hit for 200:

Shield Block: 200 x .8 = 160

DR: 160 - 20 = 140

Unfair: 140 x 2 = 280

Saving 120, DR still only 40

Splashed on Seelah tank it gives her Tower Prof and Shield Block at one trigger per round which should be all that’s needed.

Played Single Class it’s effectively always up and I’m guessing the Capstone stacks if you can trigger it multiple times for lulz.

The AoE is for “people who play difficulties they suck at so can’t hit anything and whine about the game” friendly. Will be interesting to see if it triggers weapon procs. Fine ability in any case.

Capstone is a build around I guess. The scaling by Fighter level stuff usually tops out at 17 so can’t fault anyone for going after kombos for last three levels instead.


The Witch Archetype is for kids which is appropriate for the cross promo. Hitting high AC targets with souped up Cantrips isn’t very good on a class that could Hexing them instead, but it beats sitting there just missing them with everything and giving up like PorkyThePaladin.

Vortex is another unique but not broken effect that unlike Pit Spells doesn’t involve sitting around waiting for the boss to come back after your buffs have expired.

Two very good additions.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey, you can’t even be bothered to read the abilities, let alone test them, so I have to break it down into basic concepts for you.

Of course both archetypes have abilities to prevent people being filtered by Swarms*, which was probably the main goal.

* - Fighter ability is weapon damage so who knows.

Divine Zap famously also doesn’t require an attack roll (guaranteed to do at least one damage!) so maybe if that gets progressing dice could be decent.

 

[Average Manatee]

Protective Luck eats a whole additional action econ so defeats the purpose of having a tank.

but chant costs a move action so you can keep it up in battle and still cast

Both classes are kinda mediocre. Their abilities aren't powerful and there's not enough difference between them and the base class to really draw the attention.

 

[Longes]

Protective Luck eats a whole additional action econ so defeats the purpose of having a tank.

but chant costs a move action so you can keep it up in battle and still cast

Both classes are kinda mediocre. Their abilities aren't powerful and there's not enough difference between them and the base class to really draw the attention.

The witch archetype is easily an improvement over the basic witch. Three hexes for the price of good cantrips and souped up rays is a price I'm willing to pay any day. But more importantly, these archetypes are supposed to represent the behavior of characters from a roguelike action game, and I'd argue they do that perfectly.

 

[Desiderius]

Sigh.

(1) Lose less >> win more

The Sword/Board Fighter is easy improvement over base Fighter for tanking Tin/Ironman and Basic Fighter is already great. Pretty sure that AoE is a little overtuned, but not in a game-breaking way.

More like giving players a little help with the “tedium”.

Exactly what archetypes are for.

(2) If you understand how Hexes work you want as many as you can get. Because they bypass SR and many have an effect even on made save (and can be kept up with Chant/Cackle) those Hexes have no failure mode and there are several other good Major/Grand choices.

Trading that (once you have Cackle the other Hexes get a lot better) away for something the party needs in one thing. No party needs a Witch burning her action econ tickling mobs.

If you want to do a Metamagic Ray Witch (Ember done right) sure knock yourself out. Guess you can use your spells for buffs instead. The Vortex thingie may be worth it on its own.

If these archetypes are a good fit for the cross-game sponsorship deal even better. Great for expanding playerbase.

 

[Desiderius]

The downside of Protective Luck is the opportunity cost. Sure it’s great very early game on Unfair but that Standard action is something you want to unlock if tank can stand on its own.

 

[Average Manatee]

The witch archetype is easily an improvement over the basic witch. Three hexes for the price of good cantrips and souped up rays is a price I'm willing to pay any day. But more importantly, these archetypes are supposed to represent the behavior of characters from a roguelike action game, and I'd argue they do that perfectly.

You want as many hexes as possible in the early game. Keeping fortune + protective luck up on everyone with chant is mad OP for getting past tough hard/unfair fights. Cantrips are kinda shit, early game a crossbow is just as good (demons will reduce elemental cantrips to zero anyway), by the midgame you have enough spells that cantrips will still never be used. And the capstone is... alright but its level 20 and not gonna make or break the game.

The Sword/Board Fighter is easy improvement over base Fighter for tanking Tin/Ironman and Basic Fighter is already great. Pretty sure that AoE is a little overtuned, but not in a game-breaking way.

I agree that its better than base fighter, but compared to other archetypes? Like if you're getting hit multiple times per round then 20% DR isn't going to save you, you're playing badly and gonna die. Mut warrior leaves it in the dust.

AoE looks kinda mediocre, ~50 AoE damage is not terribly impressive once per battle when stacked up against a full round attack that can do thousands. I assume it can't crit or anything since it has no attack roll.

 

[Desiderius]

You are going to get hit on a tank unless you’re using Protective Luck and I’d rather not be constrained to those party comps or having to keep it up even when I have it. Move Actions are often needed for, you know, moving.

Check upthread for the math. *Any* DR is big on Unfair and this is the first percentage based source.

The more base DR you can stack the better it is and you can stack a lot with the new Armor and Shield Mythics. Just what I was looking for in a Fighter tank or Seelah Splash.

 

[Desiderius]

that can do thousands.

Why are people so obsessed with making corpses deader?

This isn’t a WoW raid. Bosses don’t have 10M HP. For fuck sake play this game. It’s pretty good.

 

[Average Manatee]

You are going to get hit on a tank unless you’re using Protective Luck and I’d rather not be constrained to those party comps or having to keep it up even when I have it. Move Actions are often needed for, you know, moving.

That "party comp" includes Camellia, and if you're using the new witch archetype you're in that party comp already. So I don't see the complaint's premise?

Protective luck and fortune are basically always going to be more useful than a cantrip damage even with that minor boost. Against anything difficult you won't even pierce their DR.

that can do thousands.

Why are people so obsessed with making corpses deader?

This isn’t a WoW raid. Bosses don’t have 10M HP. For fuck sake play this game. It’s pretty good.

Enemies have 1000s of HP in this game and you can continue your full attack to hit other enemies, especially if you stack reach increases.

 

[razvedchiki]

so a barbarian/deamon stacks its rages? also can you do chaotic good/neutral deamon/legend?

 

[Desiderius]

You are going to get hit on a tank unless you’re using Protective Luck and I’d rather not be constrained to those party comps or having to keep it up even when I have it. Move Actions are often needed for, you know, moving.

That "party comp" includes Camellia, and if you're using the new witch archetype you're in that party comp already. So I don't see the complaint's premise?

Protective luck and fortune are basically always going to be more useful than a cantrip damage even with that minor boost. Against anything difficult you won't even pierce their DR.

that can do thousands.

Why are people so obsessed with making corpses deader?

This isn’t a WoW raid. Bosses don’t have 10M HP. For fuck sake play this game. It’s pretty good.

Enemies have 1000s of HP in this game and you can continue your full attack to hit other enemies, especially if you stack reach increases.

Unless you’re soloing you have five other characters for that. I can understand if you’re wasting a whole slot keeping your tank alive you may be wasting the other four in a similar manner. I don’t.

Seeing as how I posted a pic of Cam doing 237 damage with a Snowball at level 11 that damage could even come from a meta’ed up Cantrip flinger.

Damage should not be a limiting factor for a competently played party.

Also Cam is a shitty character (probably as a troll) and that archetype isn’t supposed to be DEX-based (probably likewise).

 

[Longes]

so a barbarian/deamon stacks its rages? also can you do chaotic good/neutral deamon/legend?

Demon rages do not stack with other rages. Alas. EDIT: Nevermind, they patched this since I played Demon and apparently rages stack now.
You technically can play a "good" demon and then switch to Legend, but there's not much point to it RP-wise. Demon path is pretty evil, and all your choices will either be Evil or Chaotic (evil). Same goes for Lich. You can totally do it though, the game lets you do it.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why are people so obsessed with making corpses deader?

Because the deader you make them the less zombie they be.

 

[Haplo]

The witch archetype is easily an improvement over the basic witch. Three hexes for the price of good cantrips and souped up rays is a price I'm willing to pay any day. But more importantly, these archetypes are supposed to represent the behavior of characters from a roguelike action game, and I'd argue they do that perfectly.

You want as many hexes as possible in the early game. Keeping fortune + protective luck up on everyone with chant is mad OP for getting past tough hard/unfair fights. Cantrips are kinda shit, early game a crossbow is just as good (demons will reduce elemental cantrips to zero anyway), by the midgame you have enough spells that cantrips will still never be used. And the capstone is... alright but its level 20 and not gonna make or break the game.

Fortune is 1/rest per character, though. That severly limits its usefulness for me.
Guess it can help in a boss fight or something, but I prefer not to rely on it.
Touch of Luck can be spammed much more.

 

[scytheavatar]

You are going to get hit on a tank unless you’re using Protective Luck and I’d rather not be constrained to those party comps or having to keep it up even when I have it. Move Actions are often needed for, you know, moving.

That "party comp" includes Camellia, and if you're using the new witch archetype you're in that party comp already. So I don't see the complaint's premise?

Protective luck and fortune are basically always going to be more useful than a cantrip damage even with that minor boost. Against anything difficult you won't even pierce their DR.

that can do thousands.

Why are people so obsessed with making corpses deader?

This isn’t a WoW raid. Bosses don’t have 10M HP. For fuck sake play this game. It’s pretty good.

Enemies have 1000s of HP in this game and you can continue your full attack to hit other enemies, especially if you stack reach increases.

Unless you’re soloing you have five other characters for that. I can understand if you’re wasting a whole slot keeping your tank alive you may be wasting the other four in a similar manner. I don’t.

A tank is the most OP thing in WOTR, if you can keep your tank alive then it removes pressure on you to kill all your enemies ASAP, removes pressure on you to max your DPS. And a tank with max AC is worth nothing when he gets fucked by a natural 20.

 

[Yosharian]

The Fortune nerf heavily impacts tank 'n spank strategies though. To the point where it might be easier just to go for disables instead, or mass summon strategies.

When you could spam Fortune your tank was basically invulnerable in most encounters, stuff like Playful Darkness aside

There's also a few tank build exploits that got nerfed, I know mine got hit fairly hard in the last big patch

The Shatter nerf also really hits martial parties badly

 

[huskarls]

owl cat is smoking crack at their cyprus mansion and missed their calling as a mmo developer with these 'balance patches.' fucking unreal redeveloping metas for a single player. when's the new raid dropping?

 

[volklore]

The witch archetype is easily an improvement over the basic witch. Three hexes for the price of good cantrips and souped up rays is a price I'm willing to pay any day. But more importantly, these archetypes are supposed to represent the behavior of characters from a roguelike action game, and I'd argue they do that perfectly.

You want as many hexes as possible in the early game. Keeping fortune + protective luck up on everyone with chant is mad OP for getting past tough hard/unfair fights. Cantrips are kinda shit, early game a crossbow is just as good (demons will reduce elemental cantrips to zero anyway), by the midgame you have enough spells that cantrips will still never be used. And the capstone is... alright but its level 20 and not gonna make or break the game.

Fortune is 1/rest per character, though. That severly limits its usefulness for me.
Guess it can help in a boss fight or something, but I prefer not to rely on it.
Touch of Luck can be spammed much more.

I mean people are cackling it out of combat to a million duration, that's why they like it, they can use it for the entire time between rests. Realitstically, unless you use toybox for it or like to sit for ages clicking cackle it was always a 1 boss battle option.

 

[Desiderius]

The witch archetype is easily an improvement over the basic witch. Three hexes for the price of good cantrips and souped up rays is a price I'm willing to pay any day. But more importantly, these archetypes are supposed to represent the behavior of characters from a roguelike action game, and I'd argue they do that perfectly.

You want as many hexes as possible in the early game. Keeping fortune + protective luck up on everyone with chant is mad OP for getting past tough hard/unfair fights. Cantrips are kinda shit, early game a crossbow is just as good (demons will reduce elemental cantrips to zero anyway), by the midgame you have enough spells that cantrips will still never be used. And the capstone is... alright but its level 20 and not gonna make or break the game.

Fortune is 1/rest per character, though. That severly limits its usefulness for me.
Guess it can help in a boss fight or something, but I prefer not to rely on it.
Touch of Luck can be spammed much more.

One per rest abilities are useful for boss fights. Very nice to crit fish on Lann in conjunction with Perfect Strike and Bless Weapon.

All depends on what you need. Fortune is a spiking ability, Shield Block is effectively always on. Passive abilities that require no action econ are good!

 

[Desiderius]

The Fortune nerf heavily impacts tank 'n spank strategies though. To the point where it might be easier just to go for disables instead, or mass summon strategies.

When you could spam Fortune your tank was basically invulnerable in most encounters, stuff like Playful Darkness aside

There's also a few tank build exploits that got nerfed, I know mine got hit fairly hard in the last big patch

The Shatter nerf also really hits martial parties badly

You don't really need the exploits.

Shatter is fine. Hitting once is a lot easier than hitting repeatedly and the following attacks still benefit, plus there are now other ways to get flat-footed if you want it.

The point of tanking is to give disables time to take effect and to free up resources from protecting rest of team to make them more effective in their roles (disabling, damage, what have you), that includes opening up party comps. Summon tanking to some extent exploits holes in the AI so I prefer playing it straight. Summons *can* supplement your offense now though in the right party.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Dishonoredbr]

I won but can't answer because twitter is blocked in my country

 

[Cat]

I won but can't answer because twitter is blocked in my country

mullvad.net

 

[Desiderius]

How many hours did the winners have?