Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

I think I've only played Mutation Warrior once - fully respeccing Regill into one. And took 3-5 lvl dip couple of times to salvage Greybor and turn him into dual thrower.

And in the realties of Rogue-like on Hard heavy armored Fighter is not exactly tanking material - any pet with heavy barding that is available right in the starting shop will outperform him in AC department whole first half of the DLC, while being faster and doing much better damage.

Well, I'd still take paladin over any fighter into harder runs of Rogue-like because even something as banal as Channel and removing Fatigue/Disease/Blind/Curse with Lay of Hand without any spellcasting (triggers shit from the underwinds) is way more amazing than any personal AC/AB bonuses, not mentioning everything else like Mark. Or Sohei who only needs one Fauchard to become a god of destruction on his fast 40+ AC horse. Or even Ranger to share Favored Enemies... etc etc.

So yeah, Fighter's 10 speed and some AC are worse option because even with them he is outperformed by some dog in his tanking role in early levels, and outperformed by Mutagen from the Mutation Warriors in higher levels.

Btw I have a long time tradition since Kingmaker to keep one caster in the party devoted to Haste-casting - with the spell specialization and any other CL bonuses I can find. Because without perma-hasting with gratuitous RTwP smashing starting from lvl 9-10 - I would have gone mad cleaning Rogue-like way before I got to the end boss.

(1) Greybor doesn't need salvaging. Good Bashing Shields start showing up when he does and he gets Shield Mastery at lvl 11 via Combat Style Shield Bash at 10 and can also get Defensive Study Mythic at that point. Dips are bad, especially on Slayer since it's costing you Advanced Talents, Studied progression, and eventual access to Improved Quarry.

(2) Reg HK takes longer to get there (put him on the bench until at least lvl 10) but in comparison to MW it's the same thing I was talking about above but even more pronounced since he's DEX-based (making Armor Training even more essential) and the HK abilities you're giving up are so much better (AoE buffs to bring rest of team up to his AB/AC instead of tacking a few AB/AC onto the character that already has the highest).

(3) Again the "pets are better" doesn't really matter unless you want to go all pets and at that point why not just summon spam? It also relies on buffs/Feats to get where Fighter already is (and beyond of course) and depending on what level you are you may not have them available yet or want to use them for other things. I've been leaning hard on Leopard tanking lately but I need someone to flank with him and preferably two or three more.

(4) Pal is awfully slow too. I eventually had Retreat from my Alchemist but would rather not have a mandatory Alch situation like it felt like P:K was. I don't see how perma-Haste (as opposed to boss-Haste) is realistic before lvl 10 or so (and hard enough after that). P:K had Haste wand from Depths to help but rnd/lvl spells in general are too resource intensive (outside of boss spiking) in an environment with so few rests like this DLC. That's where "always on" classes like Fighter are at their best - to clean up regular fights with no help.

(5) Bottom line is whether there's a Heavy I want to use without the downside. I haven't seen much in DLC yet (although Full +2 does a good bit with Armor Training) so haven't added a Fighter. If one shows up at the Chaplain with good unique effects a class with Armor Training will be my first thought. Armor Training not working on non-Fighters (Battlemage/Purifier etc..) is one of my big beefs with Wrath dev follow-up.

without perma-hasting with gratuitous RTwP smashing starting from lvl 9-10 - I would have gone mad cleaning Rogue-like way before I got to the end boss.

There's no dishonor in turning down the difficulty in that situation. I was never a power gamer growing up but had to crank it up during the phone game era just to escape the faceroll. I think these games are working on getting difficulty back to where it was before the fall. I feel bad for people like Correct_Carlo who grew up on the faceroll so try to start out these games on Unfair because they don't know anything different.

Core seems like a good challenge on this DLC with maybe Hard once I've got a good grasp on everything going on.

 

[Desiderius]

His point about MW being a class where all the people praising it seemingly forget how leveling up works and that there is a game they are actually supposed to play attached to the theorycrafting is very valid. In other words: yeah, the perks are nice, but check when you actually get them and what you are left with for the vast majority of game time.

The part about vanilla fighter being somehow much better is lol, though, yes.

I still want to do a dragonheir scion run for extra shitty fighter experience. Assuming the game ever gets fixed. Right now I just don't have the patience for it.

Dragonheir is only class in the game with Standard Action Dazzling Display and also gets Intimidate bonus per class lvl. You don't get to see the Bloodline on the Character Sheet until you choose it either. I think you'll find it anything but extra-shitty as long as you find some way to Wildshape yourself (so that lack of Armor Training doesn't matter) with Weapon Training Natural Weapons.

Well from watching you play you’re more of an all eggs in one basket guy so I could see why it would appeal to you, but marginal, generic, single character, endgame (as opposed to dramatic, unique, AoE, early game) build design is the bane of the first take after release memes that have gotten stuck in people’s heads.

MW doesn’t get Grand Mut until lvl 19 lol. Mutagen is so good on Vivi *because it needs them* to have average AB. MW is the opposite case and you don’t get them until later. Likewise “free” Bite/Wings is less valuable on a class that gets so much of what you’re getting for free already = attacks/feats. You’ve got the Feats to just go Aasimar if you want Wings.

Dude, I have a lot of time for your opinions, but sometimes when literally everyone other than you states that Mutation Warrior is better than a base fighter you're probably not going to convince them that you're the only one that's right, and you're probably better off changing topics.

Read Zboj Lamignat's comment. I'll convince some of you eventually (I am right on this one outside of glorified soloing for the reasons I've provided. I'm never playing MW for same reason I'm never playing Deliverer - gives up major class feature for something I don't need) but that's far less of a concern than simply getting people out of the ruts they've gotten stuck in, which is what the general contrarianism is for.

I think what happened is that when you go back to play old 3.5/Wizardry/Gold Box/whatever there are good guides from players with a wealth of experience *in that game* to read to get you (back) up to speed but on these new games all you have is clickbait grifters who rush stuff out the week of release before moving on to the next game so their frame of reference is the games they're used to playing instead of the actual game they're writing about.

If you're stuck in that frame a year after release you're not only going to be behind the curve you're missing out on the discovery and experimentation that makes these games fun in the first place.

 

[Stoned Ape]

His point about MW being a class where all the people praising it seemingly forget how leveling up works and that there is a game they are actually supposed to play attached to the theorycrafting is very valid. In other words: yeah, the perks are nice, but check when you actually get them and what you are left with for the vast majority of game time.

The part about vanilla fighter being somehow much better is lol, though, yes.

I still want to do a dragonheir scion run for extra shitty fighter experience. Assuming the game ever gets fixed. Right now I just don't have the patience for it.

Point being the only thing base fighter gets is armor training from level 3. Mutation warrior gets mutagen from level 3, Feral or fortification from 7th, and Wings or improved fortification from 11th. Also 1 extra skill point per level.

You can keep mutagen up between rests from 6th level (I thought it was 9th but remembered wrong), which is +2 AC and +4 STR or DEX. Mithral medium armour has very low skill check penalties and a really high ceiling for AC bonus, so base fighter armor training doesn't really doesn't help there, either (not many fighters are going to have a DEX of more than 16). You can pick up mithral chainmail from mobs from about 4th-5th level. Mithral medium armour is common as mud in the expansion.

Additionally, in the expansion I think the only type of fighter even really worth trying is a Kitsune dex build that doesn't use armor at all, let alone armor training. Kitsune is the only way a fighter can get pounce (aside from Skald which you might not want to incluse for whatever reason).

A Kitsune Dex fighter can go with 2-weapon fighting and fight unarmored, just using potions of mage armor combined with robe of the apprentice for +6 AC, topped up with Mythic Archmage Armor (for up to +3 more for a 1st voyage character, +6 for a 2nd, or +10 for a 3rd) which eventually works out better than mithral full plate +5* (even with full armor training). Can also go reduced for another +2 AC on top (+1 size, +1 DEX) and then mutagen for another +4 on top of that (+2 DEX, +2 Natural) before you get greater or grand mutagen.

*best full plate I've found in the expansion is +3, best mithral full plate is +2.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Read Zboj Lamignat's comment. I'll convince some of you eventually (I am right on this one outside of glorified soloing for the reasons I've provided. I'm never playing MW for same reason I'm never playing Deliverer - gives up major class feature for something I don't need) but that's far less of a concern than simply getting people out of the ruts they've gotten stuck in, which is what the general contrarianism is for.

I think what happened is that when you go back to play old 3.5/Wizardry/Gold Box/whatever there are good guides from players with a wealth of experience *in that game* to read to get you (back) up to speed but on these new games all you have is clickbait grifters who rush stuff out the week of release before moving on to the next game so their frame of reference is the games they're used to playing instead of the actual game they're writing about.

If you're stuck in that frame a year after release you're not only going to be behind the curve you're missing out on the discovery and experimentation that makes these games fun in the first place.

How about pnp players?

https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-390101.html

"so I've been looking over the wide variety of archetypes the fighter class possess and have begun to wonder, which ones are the best to take? As such, I was thinking that we could try and come up with a suitable list of them based upon viability. For myself, Mutagen Fighter and Polearm Fighter sit at the top, followed by Trench Fighter."

"Inconditional Tier: The one that people claim to be good no matter what, because every build is good with it.
Examples: Lore Warden, Martial Master, Mutation Warrior"

"Lore Warden and Martial Master are on top by a VERY good bit, followed by Mutation Warrior."

https://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/characters/classes/fighter/archetypes/ - Mutagen Warrior top tier.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...-u5peHzBY8NZ7xHIww/edit#heading=h.wxs9t8d2bkh -Mutation Warrior (****) - top tier.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t43z?Is-Mutation-Warrior-the-most-powerful-fighter

"Most powerful is very questionable.
But, I do agree that Mutation warrior is better than than the standard base fighter."

There are plenty more out there, but I think that's enough to go on for now.

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

 

[Desiderius]

Read Zboj Lamignat's comment. I'll convince some of you eventually (I am right on this one outside of glorified soloing for the reasons I've provided. I'm never playing MW for same reason I'm never playing Deliverer - gives up major class feature for something I don't need) but that's far less of a concern than simply getting people out of the ruts they've gotten stuck in, which is what the general contrarianism is for.

I think what happened is that when you go back to play old 3.5/Wizardry/Gold Box/whatever there are good guides from players with a wealth of experience *in that game* to read to get you (back) up to speed but on these new games all you have is clickbait grifters who rush stuff out the week of release before moving on to the next game so their frame of reference is the games they're used to playing instead of the actual game they're writing about.

If you're stuck in that frame a year after release you're not only going to be behind the curve you're missing out on the discovery and experimentation that makes these games fun in the first place.

How about pnp players?

https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-390101.html

"so I've been looking over the wide variety of archetypes the fighter class possess and have begun to wonder, which ones are the best to take? As such, I was thinking that we could try and come up with a suitable list of them based upon viability. For myself, Mutagen Fighter and Polearm Fighter sit at the top, followed by Trench Fighter."

"Inconditional Tier: The one that people claim to be good no matter what, because every build is good with it.
Examples: Lore Warden, Martial Master, Mutation Warrior"

"Lore Warden and Martial Master are on top by a VERY good bit, followed by Mutation Warrior."

https://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/characters/classes/fighter/archetypes/ - Mutagen Warrior top tier.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...-u5peHzBY8NZ7xHIww/edit#heading=h.wxs9t8d2bkh -Mutation Warrior (****) - top tier.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t43z?Is-Mutation-Warrior-the-most-powerful-fighter

"Most powerful is very questionable.
But, I do agree that Mutation warrior is better than than the standard base fighter."

There are plenty more out there, but I think that's enough to go on for now.

PnPers have the same problem as 3.5ers. I think they get hung up on the “bloated stats” required to translate a four player setting to a six-player Crpg with big Mythics.+2 on one character means a lot more when it’s out of 20 vs 40 (or eventually 100 or whatever).

My superpower is that I’ve never played PnP and have forgotten most of my 3.5 (and was annoyed at having to read guides to get all my dips and splashes co-ordinated when I did). Appeals to authority aren’t going to work on me because when it comes to the *C*rpg I *am* the authority for the simple reason that I’ve played more and certainly tested more widely than anyone else has because I don’t have those hang-ups.

I’ll give players like you and Haplo and Daidre the benefit of the doubt but only until I’ve tested the alternatives then I present my findings and reasoning behind them. If you want to engage then make counterarguments. People who do class rankings in a vacuum are missing the point of tge ruleset in any event.

Now authorities can of course be wrong and I mostly play on Core now because I’m old and lazy and absent-minded but I can still see when my AB is beating the mob’s AC by 20 and that trading half my base speed to beat it by 22 isn’t really something I’m interested in.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

I stopped playing. It got really boring in chapter 3 and didn't improve for me at all in chapter 4. Also Mutation Warrior is just a fighter archetype that can get mutagens.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I’ll give players like you and Haplo and Daidre the benefit of the doubt but only until I’ve tested the alternatives then I present my findings and reasoning behind them. If you want to engage then make counterarguments. People who do class rankings in a vacuum are missing the point of tge ruleset in any event.

Now authorities can of course be wrong and I mostly play on Core now because I’m old and lazy and absent-minded but I can still see when my AB is beating the mob’s AC by 20 and that trading half my base speed to beat it by 22 isn’t really something I’m interested in.

I've played as a Fighter through Kingmaker (with Call of the Wild) and a Mutation Warrior through the original WotR campaign. I kept my MW in medium mithral armor (I had a mithral breatplate +6 due to Trickster). The only advantage the base fighter gets is 10' move boost in medium or heavy armor, but if you're wearing mithral medium there is literally no advantage to being a base fighter over a mutation warrior (unless you're going dex-based 2 weapon fighter, where you probably need pounce to make your extra attacks worthwhile).

In that situation, even the Mutation Warrior's +1 skill point per level is better than armor training (ie if you're wearing mithral medium armor, armor training does literally nothing for you). The mutagen is just extra on top.

EDIT: The best heavy armour I've now found in the expansion is mithral half-plate +4. Best medium is mithral breastplate +4, which is equal after using base mutagen, but with a much higher Dex ceiling.

 

[Desiderius]

His point about MW being a class where all the people praising it seemingly forget how leveling up works and that there is a game they are actually supposed to play attached to the theorycrafting is very valid. In other words: yeah, the perks are nice, but check when you actually get them and what you are left with for the vast majority of game time.

The part about vanilla fighter being somehow much better is lol, though, yes.

I still want to do a dragonheir scion run for extra shitty fighter experience. Assuming the game ever gets fixed. Right now I just don't have the patience for it.

Point being the only thing base fighter gets is armor training from level 3. Mutation warrior gets mutagen from level 3, Feral or fortification from 7th, and Wings or improved fortification from 11th. Also 1 extra skill point per level.

You can keep mutagen up between rests from 6th level (I thought it was 9th but remembered wrong), which is +2 AC and +4 STR or DEX. Mithral medium armour has very low skill check penalties and a really high ceiling for AC bonus, so base fighter armor training doesn't really doesn't help there, either (not many fighters are going to have a DEX of more than 16). You can pick up mithral chainmail from mobs from about 4th-5th level. Mithral medium armour is common as mud in the expansion.

Additionally, in the expansion I think the only type of fighter even really worth trying is a Kitsune dex build that doesn't use armor at all, let alone armor training. Kitsune is the only way a fighter can get pounce (aside from Skald which you might not want to incluse for whatever reason).

A Kitsune Dex fighter can go with 2-weapon fighting and fight unarmored, just using potions of mage armor combined with robe of the apprentice for +6 AC, topped up with Mythic Archmage Armor (for up to +3 more for a 1st voyage character, +6 for a 2nd, or +10 for a 3rd) which eventually works out better than mithral full plate +5* (even with full armor training). Can also go reduced for another +2 AC on top (+1 size, +1 DEX) and then mutagen for another +4 on top of that (+2 DEX, +2 Natural) before you get greater or grand mutagen.

*best full plate I've found in the expansion is +3, best mithral full plate is +2.

If they don’t put any good Heavies in the DLC I simply won’t be playing Fighter. Simple as. If you’re going unarmored why even play Fighter in the first place lol. You’re talking yourself in circles. Wasting a (scaling!) Mythic to get something the class already gives you makes no sense whatsoever.

Armor training doesn’t stop getting better at lvl 3 if you’re progressing in the class (as we’ve discussed before). You get full speed in Medium at 3 and Heavy at seven and the bonuses keep going up. The whole point of the class not needing a caster stat is that you can crank *both* STR and DEX sky high to get the benefit of DEX-based while staying STR-based for Size bonuses to weapon dice and the like. But that relies on Armor Training unless you give up Heavy at which point just play Barb or Slayer.

Daidre is right about the utility other classes bring to the table so if I’m not doing Swordlord/Dragonheir and not using Heavy I’ll just play another class.

Mut Warrior is win more. Win >> win more.

 

[Desiderius]

I’ll give players like you and Haplo and Daidre the benefit of the doubt but only until I’ve tested the alternatives then I present my findings and reasoning behind them. If you want to engage then make counterarguments. People who do class rankings in a vacuum are missing the point of tge ruleset in any event.

Now authorities can of course be wrong and I mostly play on Core now because I’m old and lazy and absent-minded but I can still see when my AB is beating the mob’s AC by 20 and that trading half my base speed to beat it by 22 isn’t really something I’m interested in.

I've played as a Fighter through Kingmaker (with Call of the Wild) and a Mutation Warrior through the original WotR campaign. I kept my MW in medium mithral armor (I had a mithral breatplate +6 due to Trickster). The only advantage the base fighter gets is 10' move boost in medium or heavy armor, but if you're wearing mithral medium there is literally no advantage to being a base fighter over a mutation warrior (unless you're going dex-based 2 weapon fighter, where you really need pounce to make your extra attacks worthwhile).

In that situation, even the Mutation Warrior's +1 skill point per level is better than armor training. The mutagen is just extra on top.

Mithril requires Vestment, which burns a very valuable spell slot to make up for something you play the class to already get. Again tho, you can do that on any number of classes and Mut doesn’t give you enough to make up for the utility you can get from other Medium classes.

Extra skill pts are moot since all you need is Stealth and maybe perception.

If I want Kitsune Pounce I’m not fighting my way through the STR-malus so would either do @Haplo’s Mounted build or my Swordlord to take advantage of the DEX/CHR bonus.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Mithril requires Vestment, which burns a very valuable spell slot to make up for something you play the class to already get. Again tho, you can do that on any number of classes and Mut doesn’t give you enough to make up for the utility you can get from other Medium classes.

Extra skill pts are moot since all you need is Stealth and maybe perception.

You can get stealth, perception and trickery on one character. Frees up skill points on other characters.

Full plate requires more Vestment than breastplates do, you find magical mithral chainmail and breastplates with better enhancement bonus before you do heavy armor.

I just found the half-plate +4 (more than half-way through my third expidition), I found my first mithral breastplate +4 during my second.

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

I stopped playing. It got really boring in chapter 3 and didn't improve for me at all in chapter 4. Also Mutation Warrior is just a fighter archetype that can get mutagens.

Kind of like vivi, huh. Is it better than vivi or does it suck? Vivi had a couple of good spells in its spell list which made it decent.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

I stopped playing. It got really boring in chapter 3 and didn't improve for me at all in chapter 4. Also Mutation Warrior is just a fighter archetype that can get mutagens.

Kind of like vivi, huh. Is it better than vivi or does it suck? Vivi had a couple of good spells in its spell list which made it decent.

It's a full fighter archetype that replaces armor training with a mutagen and +1 skill point/level. It gets no spells but gets bonus feats, weapon training, and bravery like a regular fighter.

 

[Desiderius]

I found Full +2 before Mythril and iirc you can buy Fulls from the vendor. Which is moot unless there’s Armor like Chain of Comradery with other bonuses which is the main thing (after Weapon Training) motivating me to look at Fighter. Likewise if there’s a good Tower since Fighter is only class with Tower Prof.

There is one niche I can think of where I’d want to look at Mut Warrior: Effortless Dual Wielding best available one-handers *without Shatter* to hit Mind Immune bosses, using the three Feats saved on a good CM or as you suggested Vital Strike with Two-hander (preferably Glaive/Bardiche) and the Cleaves for non-bosses. That’s where you’d really need all that AB.

With Shatter it’s probably going to have the highest CMB available so if you can manage the speed issues you could Move + CM bosses if you can offset the INT malus.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

I stopped playing. It got really boring in chapter 3 and didn't improve for me at all in chapter 4. Also Mutation Warrior is just a fighter archetype that can get mutagens.

Kind of like vivi, huh. Is it better than vivi or does it suck? Vivi had a couple of good spells in its spell list which made it decent.

It hits things easier than Vivi. Though depending what you’re trying to hit if you need that much help you may have other issues.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I don't even know what a mutation warrior is, but this thread getting bumped to first page on a daily basis; reminds me that I'm going to have to eventually play this for completion's sake - gotta improve steam gamer score. FriendlyMerchant Did you ever manage to beat Wrath or did you give up?

I stopped playing. It got really boring in chapter 3 and didn't improve for me at all in chapter 4. Also Mutation Warrior is just a fighter archetype that can get mutagens.

Kind of like vivi, huh. Is it better than vivi or does it suck? Vivi had a couple of good spells in its spell list which made it decent.

I like vivi better because of the spells and such. It could double as a dodge tank and buffer in Kingmaker easily with infusion and the mutagen. It doesn't even require a special build. 10d6 Sneak attack die is a lot of damage too, even if you're playing with a mod that fixes the flanking rules.

Mutagen warrior is just a fighter with mutagen replacing armor training, gets up to Grand mutagen, and just has a few fewer feats than the normal fighter.

 

[Pink Eye]

It's a full fighter archetype that replaces armor training with a mutagen and +1 skill point/level. It gets no spells but gets bonus feats, weapon training, and bravery like a regular fighter.

What does Bravery do again. I've completely forgotten how Pathfinder works by now. Bravery is in Chalice 2 but I got a feeling it's not the same thing that you're talking about. Losing armor training doesn't sound too bad if you get mutagen as a tradeoff - as you get natural armor bonus, at least, that's how it worked with vivi in Kingmaker. Anyways. My experience in Kingmaker was that you always found a good armor set which gave decent enough AC.

I don't really know what +1 skill point does. As for weapon training, if I remember right, you get unique bonuses from wielding favored weapon. So that's good if it keeps that feature.

It hits things easier than Vivi.

Interesting, not sure how Wrath works though. Meaning I'm not sure if BAB is even relevant with Mythic bonuses. So hitting things may or may not even be a consideration.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

It's a full fighter archetype that replaces armor training with a mutagen and +1 skill point/level. It gets no spells but gets bonus feats, weapon training, and bravery like a regular fighter.

What does Bravery do again. I've completely forgotten how Pathfinder works by now. Bravery is in Chalice 2 but I got a feeling it's not the same thing that you're talking about. Losing armor training doesn't sound too bad if you get mutagen as a tradeoff - as you get natural armor bonus, at least, that's how it worked with vivi in Kingmaker. Anyways. My experience in Kingmaker was that you always found a good armor set which gave decent enough AC.

I don't really know what +1 skill point does. As for weapon training, if I remember right, you get unique bonuses from wielding favored weapon. So that's good if it keeps that feature.

Bravery is just bonus to will saves against fear.

 

[Desiderius]

Bravery gives bonus vs Fear saves (Armiger’s version is vs Compulsion?) that can be converted to Will Saves with Armed Bravery with Advanced Weapon Training.

Unlike Fighter’s Reflexes though it doesn’t benefit from Duelist Gloves. TTT lets you take Advanced Weapon Training Feats as regular Feats so it’s a good pickup by the time Bravery hits +3. In vanilla it’s hard to find room.

AB is always an issue depending on what you’re fighting. Main thing I use Fighter for is taking out the trash with minimal investment to save resources for the hardest fights where I can use Touch and debuffs and rnd/lvl stuff to present threats from the whole team. Part of that is not getting hit by the trash and having enough speed to take out stragglers and guys going for my back line.

Also to take advantage of any good Heavies/Towers that other classes can’t use effectively. It’s harder (but not impossible) to do that without Armor Training especially if you want to be able to Zerg. 20 ft Charge range and Stealth malus makes that harder but DLC has Mithril Armor to offset that.

 

[Daidre]

EDIT: The best heavy armour I've now found in the expansion is mithral half-plate +4. Best medium is mithral breastplate +4

There is full progression of all basic armors up to +5 available in the shop, but Mythril is very common too. There is Mithral breastplate + 5 that is guaranteed drop from some fat vavakias that spawn very often on the way to boss 3 long before the random chests can caught up with CR climb.

From what I saw, finding unique armor is even harder than some good weapon. Skeleton has some decent armor from the main game, I've bought Chain of Comradery from him couple of times. But other than that, all my mounted paladins that got to lvl 20 (all 2 of them) were ending the run in generic +5.

So my advise - don't skip up on the islands with a merchant spawn - he refreshes his shop each "chapter" of rogue-like and is best source of unique Wrath loot. In the end - same way as Kingmaker's rogue-like, if random is not in your favor be prepared to spend all you run with basic items from the Chaplain's shop. Imo, loot progression is a way more timid than it was in Depths DLC. Well, At least you can keep up 2 buffs from the best food and buy Heroic Invocation scrolls in the shop en masse.

 

[Stavrophore]

Playing beginning/tutorial now and the game is just good old pathfinder kingmaker, with more classes, and better[cinematic] introduction, though i dislike these underground native plot and characters so far. Itemization is as always pretty meh, descriptions are straight out of pathfinder book with pronouns not matching your char, spell and skills description also straight out of pathfinder with verbose spell descriptions instead of a point list with effect, what i mean, you should only get description like "Attack roll: +2 luck", and separate what spell do like "place the hand on the creature and infuse it with dark energy" in the separate tab for clearness of reading. Overall as always enjoyable game, the writing is quite good so far. I hope it won't fall on its face after first acts like with PK.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I found Full +2 before Mythril and iirc you can buy Fulls from the vendor. Which is moot unless there’s Armor like Chain of Comradery with other bonuses which is the main thing (after Weapon Training) motivating me to look at Fighter. Likewise if there’s a good Tower since Fighter is only class with Tower Prof.

There is one niche I can think of where I’d want to look at Mut Warrior: Effortless Dual Wielding best available one-handers *without Shatter* to hit Mind Immune bosses, using the three Feats saved on a good CM or as you suggested Vital Strike with Two-hander (preferably Glaive/Bardiche) and the Cleaves for non-bosses. That’s where you’d really need all that AB.

With Shatter it’s probably going to have the highest CMB available so if you can manage the speed issues you could Move + CM bosses if you can offset the INT malus.

There's only one highly rated tower shield I've found. It's a +4, evil only that gives an additional -2 to hit vs evil. Think I'll probably give that one a miss.

I'm still definitely more likely to include a barbarian (particularly a Mad Dog), a paladin, a bloodrider, or a cavalier than I am any variety fighter. Cavalry are just faster, better able to readjust position to attack, and better protected than foot sloggers.

 

[Desiderius]

You *can* cover Trickery with the Stealth/Trickery Background but I’ve usually got a class that already has it as a Class skill and on Core and above Ranks + Class skill usually doesn’t quite get there so I try to pickup Trapfinding if I can. Likewise I might want a different background on Fighter to pick up Perception (there are some nasty traps) or Unarmed to get Crane.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

So as a plain ol' fighter MC, what skills should I be focusing on? I see a lot of talk about stealth, please explain. Is the intention that I sneak my way up to targets with my fighter to start fights? Or just sneak within charge range? Does charge actually work right to start fights?

I respecced my fighter to have 13 int so I could get combat expertise and trip. Was this a foolish thing to do? Or a better question, what would you recommend for stats with a new fighter? And then, where should I be putting them on level up?

 

[Desiderius]

I found Full +2 before Mythril and iirc you can buy Fulls from the vendor. Which is moot unless there’s Armor like Chain of Comradery with other bonuses which is the main thing (after Weapon Training) motivating me to look at Fighter. Likewise if there’s a good Tower since Fighter is only class with Tower Prof.

There is one niche I can think of where I’d want to look at Mut Warrior: Effortless Dual Wielding best available one-handers *without Shatter* to hit Mind Immune bosses, using the three Feats saved on a good CM or as you suggested Vital Strike with Two-hander (preferably Glaive/Bardiche) and the Cleaves for non-bosses. That’s where you’d really need all that AB.

With Shatter it’s probably going to have the highest CMB available so if you can manage the speed issues you could Move + CM bosses if you can offset the INT malus.

There's only one highly rated tower shield I've found. It's a +4, evil only that gives an additional -2 to hit vs evil. Think I'll probably give that one a miss.

I'm still definitely more likely to include a barbarian (particularly a Mad Dog), a paladin, a bloodrider, or a cavalier than I am any variety fighter. Cavalry are just faster, better able to readjust position to attack, and better protected than foot sloggers.

Yeah that one’s bugged (45 lbs is a LOT of Mithril) or it would be good on Daeran in base game. Fighter is well positioned to eat the -2 and not everything (Pirates specifically) is Evil in the DLC anyway.

Pets/mounts have diminishing returns in base game but when you can buy +5 Bardings for a song its hard to justify passing that up.

The whole point of Armor Training is that it lets you wear Heavy/Towers *without* being a foot-slogger. Fighter’s Tactics + Shield Wall (always looking for a way to work in Shields so I can lose the mandatory Alch from P:K and damage is rarely an issue) + Shake it Off + Improved/Trained Initiative makes for a very resilient/smooth/self-sufficient character.