Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Yes, that’s what I just said. And base Fighter is better at that than Mutation for the reasons I explained. That said, even without Vestment you should have the highest always on AC in your party, which is important in a low rest environment.

Main thing AC is for is avoiding attacks from regular mobs/adds and that’s doable for conventionally armored Fighter.

Roleplay wise, I prefer normal Fighters to Mutation Warriors, but mechanically they are strictly inferior.

A Mutation warrior with Strength mutagen running and wearing a mithral breastplate is a superior damage dealer to normal fighter in mithral full plate, and (with the basic mutagen buff) has only 1 point lower AC. Plus MW can stack Fortification to soak crits on top of that. Sneaking is easier in Mithral Medium armor, too so that balances out the base fighter's armor check bonus (especially as you get magical mithral breastplates and chainmail pretty early, and mithral plate much later. By the time you do, you're finding mithral breatplates +3/+4 vs mithral full plate +1/+2 (Staunton's Carapace is the best mithral full plate I've found in the expansion so far in 2 1/2 voyages).

Mutation warrior gets full weapon training and feats, anyway. It just loses out on armor training (which you don't need with Mithral medium armor unless you're running more than 20 dex. That seems excessive on most fighter builds). MW even gets to keep Bravery for Armed Bravery, too.

In the expansion, you generally have to clear 2-3 islands between rests. It generally takes me less than 20 minutes to get past an island, and there is negligible travel time between them. Once you get to having a 60 minute mutation (9th level) you can effectively have it on all of the time. Even at the beginning, before 7th level both normal and mutation fighters are better off in medium armor as the base fighter move speed isn't boosted in heavy armor until 7th). Thus, base fighter ends up getting a small advantage over MW 8th level, but mutation warrior is equal or better the rest of the time.

Mutation Warrior is also generally better as a Vital Striking 2-handed weapon fighter than a base fighter due to higher STR after mutagen and equal access to combat training. With Greater/Grand mutagen they just get better in comparison. Vital Striking fighters are better than other types of fighter due to being able to maximize move+attack damage in the surprise round. And they get a bonus skill point on top, just to rub in their advantages.

Like I said, I prefer the idea of base fighter over mutation warrior, but they are just not as effective.

Saying that, a Barbarian is probably a much stronger choice than any type of fighter in TotMI anyway due to their move speed buff and access to Limitless Rage, and pet riding martial classes are much better than either (pets can easily get much higher ACs than their riders can, and have longer move distances).

“Strictly inferior”

You can count the number of things that are strictly inferior in this game on one hand. It’s highly nonlinear/multi-dimensional and (almost) everything has a niche.

Fighter is the one class with enough Feats/AB to get there on two-weapon builds that no other class can, so Vital Strike ends up being unnecessary.

Mithril Armor is a nice addition for the fixed Vestment, but every Vestment you need to cast is one less Prayer/Archon’s etc. That spell level is crowded on the classes that can cast them.

Likewise one of the reasons I’d bring a Fighter in the first place is to have a character that can take full advantage of the good Heavy Armors you find.

Mut defeats that purpose. Plenty of Medium wearers already. Finally Fighters also have the Feats to fit in some CMs (or even turn on Combat Expertise as needed) and that INT malus can bite you there.

 

[Yosharian]

Mutagen boosts armor anyway

Armor Training boosts AC by a maximum of +4 and Mutagens can boost it higher than that without having to invest in DEX at all.

Of course if you are running TTT then AT has some other big benefits that balance out the equation a lot, but I wasn't talking about TTT since I don't use it

The idea that base Fighter is anywhere near as good as MW in the base game is laughable

 

[Yosharian]

Once you get to having a 60 minute mutation (9th level) you can effectively have it on all of the time

Doesn't Mutation Warrior treat their Alchemist level as their Fighter level? A 9th-level MW should have a 90 minute duration on their Mutagen.

Mutagen​

At 3rd level, a mutation warrior discovers how to create a mutagen that he can imbibe in order to heighten his physical prowess at the cost of his personality. This ability functions as the alchemist's mutagen ability, using his fighter level as his alchemist level.

 

[Desiderius]

Mutagen boosts armor anyway

Armor Training boosts AC by a maximum of +4 and Mutagens can boost it higher than that without having to invest in DEX at all.

Of course if you are running TTT then AT has some other big benefits that balance out the equation a lot, but I wasn't talking about TTT since I don't use it

Mut is stuck at 20 Speed even in Medium until you find Mithril. Have you guys even played it or are you stuck in theorycrafting?

Mut is nice at lvl 1-2 and 16-20. Fighter is better in between.

And yeah Advanced Armor Training helps as well. Tweaks also has Mythic Armor Training.

 

[Desiderius]

Natural Armor DNE DEX Bonus. Fighter should have Improved Initiative (and later Trained Initiative) and can afford high DEX since it doesn’t need a caster stat, so will rarely be flat-footed while DEX AC counts vs Touch.

The idea that base Fighter is anywhere near as good as MW in the base game is laughable

Once again the endgame 3.5 theorycrafting crew puts the "no brain" in "no brainer." +10 Speed, better skill checks, higher DEX AC, higher Armor Bonus (from Heavy), access to effects on Heavy Armor > +2 AB, +2 Natural AC and -2 INT on a class that already has the highest base AB/AC in the game. Something's laughable here and it isn't the guy who thinks for himself instead of falling for yet another clickbait meme from the Fextradeath grifters.

 

[Daidre]

Once again the endgame 3.5 theorycrafting crew puts the "no brain" in "no brainer." +10 Speed, better skill checks, higher DEX AC

Yeah, that is what I want - skill checks from the dumbest party member and +10 speed when I have +40 from Haste more often than not.
And it is totally not better than 4-8 stackable STR, some DEX, stackable natural armor, wings, bite, fortification and whatever else.

I can see armor training being ok-ish with all extra options from TTTweaks mod, but it is firmly in meh category in the original game. At the same time, you can put mutation Warrior on the mount in the same TTT, so "he" will have sky high AC and can full attack each time after the movement.

BTW I doing rogue-like run for the achievement with zero Mythic Powers on hard, and what could I say - there is no such thing as too much AB.

 

[Polanski]

I decided to add some Loremaster levels for my Sorcerer Lich, since it seems like those Secrets could be really powerful. Does anyone have some good suggestions for Feats/spells to consider for my 3 secrets?

Also does changing difficulty up from Core break achievements? Enemies in chapter 4 can't seem to keep up anymore.

 

[The_Mask]

Last I heard Loremaster had quite a few things about it that didn't work as intended, so you might be walking into a minefield. Desiderius might know more.

 

[Polanski]

Alright. I also just realized it does not progress my Animal Companions level, so I guess I would have to take Boon Companion. Might just stay full sylvan sorcerer, as originally planned.

But looking at the list of feats you can take without meeting the pre-requisites... There has to be some gold there.

 

[Daidre]

Also does changing difficulty up from Core break achievements? Enemies in chapter 4 can't seem to keep up anymore.

Changing difficulty on the run from Core to Hard for example, breaks all difficulty related achievements - like killing unique bosses on Core or higher, Sadistic Game Design and achievements for completing the game on Core/Unfair/Last Azlanti.

 

[Desiderius]

I have +40 from Haste more often than not.

Not in this DLC you don't, bub. More endgame design. When speed matters most Mut doesn't have it. Those are the levels where you need your Fighter to carry you the most because you can't keep up buffs yet and Fighter is by far the strongest unbuffed. Pets can't wear rings and have to spend Feats to get Barding Prof. Every Haste is a slot burned where you can't cast something else. Fighter doesn't need it.

skill checks from the dumbest party member

What does this even mean? Are you trying to use your Fighter to cook or something? Stealth is absolutely essential to Fighter and Perception comes in awfully handy as well. If you're plodding around at 20 Speed with no Stealth it's going to take you a turn and a half just to get to the action.

In the main game Fighter can handle Athletics as well and it's a pain to take your Armor on and off for checks.

And it is totally not better than 4-8 stackable STR, some DEX, stackable natural armor, wings, bite, fortification and whatever else.

All this theorycrafting. Are you trying to tell me you plodded around for eleven levels with a lousy +2 AB and +2 Natural Armor (Armor Training + Heavy would have been higher AC) just so you can finally get a little more STR/DEX at lvl 12 (edit: lvl 15 lol), along with a Will malus you can't afford? So much 3.5 thinking. +1 to hit out of 50 on a class that already had the highest AB and close to it on AC. If your Fighter needs the extra help what's the rest of your team doing?

You guys aren't thinking through what makes a Fighter worth it in the first place:

(0) Weapon Training/tons of Feats but Mut gets that. Since the other Fighter classes do too they need the benefit of Mut less than other classes would.

(1) No abilities that use any stat but STR and DEX. That means you want to use things (like TWF) that need both, and use abilities (like Armor Training) that gets you full benefit from both, because you can afford to crank them both sky high. Mut loses the second part of that in exchange for a little more AB you hardly need. It makes up somewhat for losing DEX bonus by getting Nat Armor but I've been thru downsides of that. High DEX + both Initiatives ( you have a gazillion Feats) a must.

(2) Can wear Heavy Armor without the downside (principally Speed, but also DEX bonus/Skill malus given high DEX). Main purpose of this is two-fold: very high unbuffed AC for ambushes and staying power, and any bonuses that come with Heavys since few classes can wear it effectively. Mut puts the downside back in and as Stoned Ape said I guess people just wear Light or Medium but then you miss out on one of the main benefits of the class, again for a generic bonus that's just win more.

If you want to play a Fighter in Light Armor come on up to the big leagues with Swordllord. If you want to see base Fighter in it's full glory try it on Wenduag. I did TWF Throwing Axe Tank with Point Blank Master, Fighter's Tactics, Seize the Moment, and Greater Snap Shot. Was great. Would really have missed that extra speed to get in position tho.

 

[Desiderius]

Ok, went back and tested it and works I little different than I remember.

(1) You don't even get the Mutagen until lvl 3, so take back what I said about being better at lvl 1-2. The difference between 40 and 50 speed isn't that big. But 20 to 30 is a 150% increase. Advantage Fighter.

(2) If you want Wings at 11, and Greater at 15(!) then you have to take the Bite at lvl 7. Bites without Trip Cloak are massively overrated, especially vs regular attacks which aren't at -5 and get both Weapon Enhancements and Training. Only half STR bonus.

(3) Wings at 11 is a big benefit and maybe worth playing the class if you can stomach the slow speed, but by then you can have Feather Step, Mass up (lasts forever AoE) and Armor Training has +3 from DEX by then

(4) Greater Mutagen isn't even available until lvl 15. Regular Mutagen is solid but nothing spectacular and just gives you more of what you already have.

Yet another lategame meme class that people get stuck on the week of release and never get off of.

 

[Yosharian]

Last I heard Loremaster had quite a few things about it that didn't work as intended, so you might be walking into a minefield. Desiderius might know more.

Loremaster is working fine in the base game.

 

[Daidre]

Yet another lategame meme class that people get stuck on the week of release and never get off of.

I think I've only played Mutation Warrior once - fully respeccing Regill into one. And took 3-5 lvl dip couple of times to salvage Greybor and turn him into dual thrower.

And in the realties of Rogue-like on Hard heavy armored Fighter is not exactly tanking material - any pet with heavy barding that is available right in the starting shop will outperform him in AC department whole first half of the DLC, while being faster and doing much better damage.

Well, I'd still take paladin over any fighter into harder runs of Rogue-like because even something as banal as Channel and removing Fatigue/Disease/Blind/Curse with Lay of Hand without any spellcasting (triggers shit from the underwinds) is way more amazing than any personal AC/AB bonuses, not mentioning everything else like Mark. Or Sohei who only needs one Fauchard to become a god of destruction on his fast 40+ AC horse. Or even Ranger to share Favored Enemies... etc etc.

So yeah, Fighter's 10 speed and some AC are worse option because even with them he is outperformed by some dog in his tanking role in early levels, and outperformed by Mutagen from the Mutation Warriors in higher levels.

Btw I have a long time tradition since Kingmaker to keep one caster in the party devoted to Haste-casting - with the spell specialization and any other CL bonuses I can find. Because without perma-hasting with gratuitous RTwP smashing starting from lvl 9-10 - I would have gone mad cleaning Rogue-like way before I got to the end boss.

 

[Daidre]

Aaaand my zero-Mythic rogue-like run ended in the most inglorious fashion possible

Spoiler

Right on my 15th voyage 2 steps away from the finale and on the island a can't avoid.
Could be mods but I am pretty sure it is Owlcat.

 

[Haplo]

Ok, went back and tested it and works I little different than I remember.

(1) You don't even get the Mutagen until lvl 3, so take back what I said about being better at lvl 1-2. The difference between 40 and 50 speed isn't that big. But 20 to 30 is a 150% increase. Advantage Fighter.

(2) If you want Wings at 11, and Greater at 15(!) then you have to take the Bite at lvl 7. Bites without Trip Cloak are massively overrated, especially vs regular attacks which aren't at -5 and get both Weapon Enhancements and Training. Only half STR bonus.

(3) Wings at 11 is a big benefit and maybe worth playing the class if you can stomach the slow speed, but by then you can have Feather Step, Mass up (lasts forever AoE) and Armor Training has +3 from DEX by then

(4) Greater Mutagen isn't even available until lvl 15. Regular Mutagen is solid but nothing spectacular and just gives you more of what you already have.

Yet another lategame meme class that people get stuck on the week of release and never get off of.

Having up to +8 Str and +6 Dex also means a MASSIVE CMB bonus. AND physical skill bonuses. On top of large AB & damage advantage.

Sorry Desiderius, I also believe MW is better. Even in TTT. Not to mention vanilla.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Could be mods but I am pretty sure it is Owlcat.

Are you riding cows in that screenshot?

 

[Haplo]

Last I heard Loremaster had quite a few things about it that didn't work as intended, so you might be walking into a minefield. Desiderius might know more.

Loremaster is working fine in the base game.

I think the issue you've might seem reported, is that some "advanced" feats don't work without their "basic" prerequisites.
For example you can't take Greater Vital Strike directly - you should have normal Vital Strike for it to work (but you get to skip Improved Vital Strike - and 16 BAB requirement!).

 

[Daidre]

Are you riding cows in that screenshot?

It is dogs of course. And since TTTweaks fixes size changes for pets - they are damn big dogs!

 

[Haplo]

Are you riding cows in that screenshot?

It is dogs of course. And since TTTweaks fixes size changes for pets - they are damn big dogs!

Well, that's one fix I would not endorse. Smaller pets make the battlefield crowded as it is.
But skipping the size buffs is also kinda painful.. particularly when you cannot replace them with polymorphs.. and still ride.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Not bad for a cursed potion:

 

[Desiderius]

Ok, went back and tested it and works I little different than I remember.

(1) You don't even get the Mutagen until lvl 3, so take back what I said about being better at lvl 1-2. The difference between 40 and 50 speed isn't that big. But 20 to 30 is a 150% increase. Advantage Fighter.

(2) If you want Wings at 11, and Greater at 15(!) then you have to take the Bite at lvl 7. Bites without Trip Cloak are massively overrated, especially vs regular attacks which aren't at -5 and get both Weapon Enhancements and Training. Only half STR bonus.

(3) Wings at 11 is a big benefit and maybe worth playing the class if you can stomach the slow speed, but by then you can have Feather Step, Mass up (lasts forever AoE) and Armor Training has +3 from DEX by then

(4) Greater Mutagen isn't even available until lvl 15. Regular Mutagen is solid but nothing spectacular and just gives you more of what you already have.

Yet another lategame meme class that people get stuck on the week of release and never get off of.

Having up to +8 Str and +6 Dex also means a MASSIVE CMB bonus. AND physical skill bonuses. On top of large AB & damage advantage.

Sorry Desiderius, I also believe MW is better. Even in TTT. Not to mention vanilla.

Well from watching you play you’re more of an all eggs in one basket guy so I could see why it would appeal to you, but marginal, generic, single character, endgame (as opposed to dramatic, unique, AoE, early game) build design is the bane of the first take after release memes that have gotten stuck in people’s heads.

MW doesn’t get Grand Mut until lvl 19 lol. Mutagen is so good on Vivi *because it needs them* to have average AB. MW is the opposite case and you don’t get them until later. Likewise “free” Bite/Wings is less valuable on a class that gets so much of what you’re getting for free already = attacks/feats. You’ve got the Feats to just go Aasimar if you want Wings.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Well from watching you play you’re more of an all eggs in one basket guy so I could see why it would appeal to you, but marginal, generic, single character, endgame (as opposed to dramatic, unique, AoE, early game) build design is the bane of the first take after release memes that have gotten stuck in people’s heads.

MW doesn’t get Grand Mut until lvl 19 lol. Mutagen is so good on Vivi *because it needs them* to have average AB. MW is the opposite case and you don’t get them until later. Likewise “free” Bite/Wings is less valuable on a class that gets so much of what you’re getting for free already = attacks/feats. You’ve got the Feats to just go Aasimar if you want Wings.

Dude, I have a lot of time for your opinions, but sometimes when literally everyone other than you states that Mutation Warrior is better than a base fighter you're probably not going to convince them that you're the only one that's right, and you're probably better off changing topics.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

His point about MW being a class where all the people praising it seemingly forget how leveling up works and that there is a game they are actually supposed to play attached to the theorycrafting is very valid. In other words: yeah, the perks are nice, but check when you actually get them and what you are left with for the vast majority of game time.

The part about vanilla fighter being somehow much better is lol, though, yes.

I still want to do a dragonheir scion run for extra shitty fighter experience. Assuming the game ever gets fixed. Right now I just don't have the patience for it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Fighter is nice and about equal for parts of the game but MW does seem to edge out fighter at some points. I guess if you are going high dex fighter that will be in danger pure fighter might be about equal.

I my run I think I might leave Elemental Rampager in Bear form, it seems better than Smilodon. 3 powerful attacks, lots of strength, reach, rend. Reach is especially cool as it lets me charge same target as my Vivi. and extra base damage and strength from attacks lets me go beyond DR easily. I took Power Attack and Mythic Power attack and keep it on all the time. It seems all Bear attacks are considered primary so I get +5 damage for -1 penalty and since I don't have iterative attacks they all hit, especially when Rampage is on (which is on at all times when it matters as I got like 25+ rounds of it at lvl 9).