Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Stoned Ape]

Grunker
You mentioned that you were going to be respeccing your companions, any idea as to which of them you particularly want to bring with you and the kind of party role composition you're likely to go for?

 

[Grunker]

Grunker
You mentioned that you were going to be respeccing your companions, any idea as to which of them you particularly want to bring with you and the kind of party role composition you're likely to go for?

Not at all. I know I want a shield basher for a fact, but that should pretty much build itself, no? So many necessary feats.

I'm also strongly considering a Witch. I'm actually not too fond of the class on paper, but it's one of the Pathfinder classes I've played very little with, so it seems like a no brainer.

Then I wanted to do a staff monk, but since I found full shield bashing was in I've gone back a little on that since it could end up feeling similar to the shield basher, which is definetely going in.

Student of War seems fun, lots of stuff you could do with that, so that's definetely on the table as well. Could be rolled into the shield basher as well.

My main goal is having a party with (a) fun/off-kilter builds that (b) are strong enough to handle the hardest difficulty but (c) don't abuse exploits or otherwise make fights too steamrolley. This was basically impossible to achieve in Kingmaker since any competent build inevitably scaled out of control - even my shitty homemade ones - but I have a bit more faith I can come closer to that ambition in Wrath.

 

[Grunker]

Also have an old Indiana Jones Archaeologist tripper lying around somewhere from an old Serpent’s campaign that I never got to level past 6 because the GM moved away, but I’m a bit worried about its scaling in WotR

 

[Humbaba]

Very excited for the release of the enhanced edition guys.

 

[Haplo]

Also have an old Indiana Jones Archaeologist tripper lying around somewhere from an old Serpent’s campaign that I never got to level past 6 because the GM moved away, but I’m a bit worried about its scaling in WotR

Frankly in Wrath pets tend to be better trippers then PCs. And mostly using PC rounds for that is wasteful.
Do it only if your class/build supports tripping as part of Full Attack - but even then its a costly feat tax.

I had Pumelling Bully on my Cleric mounted charger build, but eventually respecced out of it. It costed many feats to be effective and well, why Trip a corpse?
The rocket tag is real here.

 

[Daidre]

I had Pumelling Bully on my Cleric mounted charger build, but eventually respecced out of it. It costed many feats to be effective, it was still challenging or even impossible to trip bosses and well, why Trip a corpse?

I think only tripping build that hadn't went into "never again" category for me was Quarterstaff Master monk who was auto-tripping with the first strike of his flurry. Earth Kinetic Knight was cool too, but he loses half of his luster in the unmodded game without Kinetic Whip.

Pet Trip is completely different story though. It is so easy to get animal's CMB into 70+ territory (and at 40+ in early chapters) that kitty + doggy, for example, with Tandem Trip and Fury Fall on both can reliably trip even toughest enemies like Mythic Vavakias on Hard and semi-reliably - on Unfair.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Grunker
You mentioned that you were going to be respeccing your companions, any idea as to which of them you particularly want to bring with you and the kind of party role composition you're likely to go for?

Not at all. I know I want a shield basher for a fact, but that should pretty much build itself, no? So many necessary feats.

I'm also strongly considering a Witch. I'm actually not too fond of the class on paper, but it's one of the Pathfinder classes I've played very little with, so it seems like a no brainer.

Then I wanted to do a staff monk, but since I found full shield bashing was in I've gone back a little on that since it could end up feeling similar to the shield basher, which is definetely going in.

Student of War seems fun, lots of stuff you could do with that, so that's definetely on the table as well. Could be rolled into the shield basher as well.

My main goal is having a party with (a) fun/off-kilter builds that (b) are strong enough to handle the hardest difficulty but (c) don't abuse exploits or otherwise make fights too steamrolley. This was basically impossible to achieve in Kingmaker since any competent build inevitably scaled out of control - even my shitty homemade ones - but I have a bit more faith I can come closer to that ambition in Wrath.

Ember (CG, Elf) is a Stigmatized Witch and is pretty solid with her build so you could just take her as is. She also has a personality that you'll either like or loathe. She has some funny interactions with Daeran (NE, Aasimar, Oracle), so taking those two along could be entertaining. I quite like both of them but I can see why others wouldn't.

Wendaug (NE, Mongrel) starts off as a fighter with 16 STR and 20 DEX who could easily be turned into a shield basher, though she lacks intelligence so you might want to respec her if you want to make her a student of war. She's another one you'll either really enjoy having around, or want to kick her out ASAP.

Camella (??, 1/2 Elf) she is helpful.

Lann (LN, Mongrel) tends to shift between wisecracking and sulking. I don't like him much if I'm honest, but his starting attributes make him good to have around if you didn't respec. As it is I'd probably choose Wendaug instead, she's more interesting.

Woljif (CN, Tiefling) has the sort of personality that you'd expect a CN thief to have. Archetypal.

A lot of people seem to dislike Seelah (LG, Human, Paladin) because of her voice actor. I don't hate her personally, but she's also not that interesting. Paladin who started out life as a pickpocket and struggles a bit with her current career choice.

Regil (LE, Gnome, Armiger/Hellknight) is great to have around. Probably one of the better-written companions.

Nenio is an annoying Neutral kitsune mage who is generally annoying except for the times she's busy being annoying.

Soseil is a NG Human Cleric who is always painting when you see him in camp. Has a horrible build with junk feats and could really do with a respec. Has quite an interesting questline that could unlock a hidden companion.

Greybor is a Dwarf Slayer hitman. Owlcat say he's neutral in alignment, but should probably be lawful evil considering his personality and job. Could also do the shield bash role very well.

Arueshalae is a CN Succubus trying to make herself ascend. You can help her do so or turn her back into a demoness.

As for builds, I'd recommend taking a full divine caster, a full arcane caster (could be the Witch), a skald or a bard, at least two front-line fighters, one of which should be mounted (could be the shield-basher, Gendarme Cavalier would fit well with feat requirements for that), and at least one ranged specialist who can do serious damage (I currently like a crossbow-shooting rogue/slayer type best for this job, but a Ranger also works well).

 

[Desiderius]

QStaff Master Angel was really good for me. Dice on QStaff goes up with lvl and Legendary/Frightful gives big Size bonus to CMB plus even more dice on weapon. Angel spellbook starts at lvl 3 even unmerged.

Aeonbane goes well with Flurry (and was triggering 3 times on the Ki Scorching Ray last time I tried it on Student of Stone Aeon) but spellbook is slower.

 

[Desiderius]

Greybor is neither L nor E lol. The LE fetish of the Codex is really something. He sets up perfect for Shield Bash (and needs the Shield) if you get Bash at ten and Shield Mastery at 11, but his build is anything but straightforward especially if you play TTT to get Stumbling/Toppling Bash and/or want him to cover Perception/Trickery with Trapfinding.

Advanced Slayer Talents open up a lot of options. Urgrosh is a lot less Feats (he doesn’t come with Outflank or Steel Soul) if you can get him a Shield Bonus to AC some other way. Defensive Study also helps.

Nenio Phantasmal spells (Rainbow Pattern, Phantasmal Web, and Phantasmal Putrefaction are all AoE enemies only) and Scroll Savant shenanigans unfortunately make her pretty irreplaceable (other than MC) for me by midgame when they turn on, and she can nuke/Weird late.

The setting turns on all the narrow Pal abilities (especially Mark of Justice) so hard to go without one, but Pal doesn’t set up well for the Mounted Feats.

Lann sets up better to go Mounted since he starts with Combat Reflexes and WIS to AC. Drovier, Divine Hound, and Nomad all work well.

Daeran can get a Mount via Second Mystery Nature which alleviates his Curse and lets him cast full Barkskins.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Greybor is neither L nor E lol.

He murders people for money and enjoys his work.

He believes his reputation and trustworthiness are the most important things to him.

 

[Yosharian]

Unfair Deskari can be tripped... If you can beat 130 CMD

 

[Desiderius]

Student of War doesn’t do much until lvl 9/10 outside of building around that Relic INT Bardiche so I consider it Legend only. Legend works well with Prestige classes.

 

[Desiderius]

Greybor is neither L nor E lol.

He murders people for money and enjoys his work.

He believes his reputation and trustworthiness are the most important things to him.

Murder is against the law. He left joy behind with his family. His work is how he forgets. There’s emphatically no joy in it, just business (busyness).

Maybe NE (Pride is one of the seven deadly sins) but more like TN in the Buddhist sense of abolishing all desire.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Greybor is neither L nor E lol.

He murders people for money and enjoys his work.

He believes his reputation and trustworthiness are the most important things to him.

Murder is against the law. He left joy behind with his family. His work is how he forgets. There’s emphatically no joy in it, just business (busyness).

On Earth, murder is against the law because it is an evil act. In the Abyss, or through much of the World Wound, which are the places we see Greybor murder people, there is no system of law for him to break. He does, however, follow a personal code of trustworthiness and rigorously honors his contracts to the letter, which are both lawful acts.

Sure, he's estranged from his family, but he does derive satisfaction from his work and says as much to the commander. Killing sentient creatures exclusively for financial reward is up there with the most evil things a person can do, and he does it repeatedly. He even states that he does not care if his targets are righteous or damned, he'll kill anyone or anything if the money is right. He even goes out of his way to join a guild of demon murderers in the abyss so he can get more money.

I could possibly be persuaded he might be Neutral Evil rather than Lawful, but he is definitely evil.

 

[Grunker]

Thanks a ton for your suggestions and input guys. I'll probably post an entire party plan or at least outline at some points so you have something concrete to comment on. But thanks a ton for the input, especially you Stoned Ape. Keep it coming

Greybor is neither L nor E lol.

He murders people for money and enjoys his work.

He believes his reputation and trustworthiness are the most important things to him.

Murder is against the law.

[disclaimer]d&d alignment debates are pointless and stupid[/disclaimer]

lawful isn't about following the law

it's about following a law

 

[Desiderius]

lawful isn't about following the law

it's about following a law

That’s where you’re wrong, kiddo, and the root of how all y’all got things so twisted you mistake evil for good. On the Codex LE = the faintest trace of testosterone. There’s a reason that this was what you were carefully taught, but not a good one.

Return.

 

[Grunker]

If it's wrong, does a Paladin of Torm stop being Lawful if he enters a land where something normally illegal is legal?

 

[Grunker]

How old are you btw Desiderius?

 

[Desiderius]

No

Greybor is neither L nor E lol.

He murders people for money and enjoys his work.

He believes his reputation and trustworthiness are the most important things to him.

Murder is against the law. He left joy behind with his family. His work is how he forgets. There’s emphatically no joy in it, just business (busyness).

On Earth, murder is against the law because it is an evil act.

No, being against the law is what makes killing murder in the first place. You gave the game away when you used the former term instead of that latter. The lawlessness of the Abyss makes my point not yours, but we don’t meet him in the Abyss.

You’d probably have trouble getting a jury of his peers to convict him of murdering the cultist in the tower. Looking at who he’s actually killing in this game you could even make the case for him being LG in spite of himself. Many such cases.

 

[Desiderius]

If it's wrong, does a Paladin of Torm stop being Lawful if he enters a land where something normally illegal is legal?

Nope. That’s my point, not yours.

 

[Desiderius]

How old are you btw Desiderius?

Old enough to have stolen money from my grandmother to play coin-op Breakout when it first came out.

 

[Grunker]

If it's wrong, does a Paladin of Torm stop being Lawful if he enters a land where something normally illegal is legal?

Nope. That’s my point, not yours.

How? I'm saying law means having strict principles you follow. So no - in my version, the Paladin would absolutely keep being Lawful when crossing borders, because that adherence to those principles do not change regardless of the law of the land. You're the one saying those principles must be named and are static/implicit to actual law i.e., Lawful is context-sensitive in your mind.

How old are you btw Desiderius?

Old enough to have stolen money from my grandmother to play coin-op Breakout when it first came out.

How old?

 

[Yosharian]

Looking forward to seeing your Assassin build!

 

[Grunker]

Stoned Ape boring and basic bitch as it sounds (since this race was also spammed for Kingmaker builds), Motherless Tiefling is almost too perfect for that Feral Champ demon. Not only does it get the bite for free (as opposed to Half-Orc which has to pay a feat for it, or other options where you have to spend 1 or more class levels to get, like Mutation Warrior), it also gains +2 in both STR and main casting stat. Hard pressed to find an argument not to do MT tbh :D

Spending my evening after finishing up fitness looking at different MC options, and I must admit I'm getting more and more keen on your suggestion here. It looks really fun and is even pretty gish, and reading some non-spoilery mythic path overviews it looks like Demon is actually pretty fun. I've also never done Natural Weapons in Pathfinder despite having played like a billion P&P campaigns in the thing.

EDIT: Come to think of it, MT's bite attack is a secondary weapon. That's a strong argument for going Half-Orc since that's a primary I think? So deals way more damage because of the strength multiplier?

 

[Stoned Ape]

Stoned Ape boring and basic bitch as it sounds (since this race was also spammed for Kingmaker builds), Motherless Tiefling is almost too perfect for that Feral Champ demon. Not only does it get the bite for free (as opposed to Half-Orc which has to pay a feat for it, or other options where you have to spend 1 or more class levels to get, like Mutation Warrior), it also gains +2 in both STR and main casting stat. Hard pressed to find an argument not to do MT tbh :D

Spending my evening after finishing up fitness looking at different MC options, and I must admit I'm getting more and more keen on your suggestion here. It looks really fun and is even pretty gish, and reading some non-spoilery mythic path overviews it looks like Demon is actually pretty fun. I've also never done Natural Weapons in Pathfinder despite having played like a billion P&P campaigns in the thing.

Awesome, glad to be of help!

Motherless looks perfect for the job, has everything you need to boost the strengths of the class and nothing that takes away from it.

Hope you have a lot of fun with it!