Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Jaedar]

Like, if you know "sex positive" people, the way e.g. Wenduag talks about her fetisch is exactly like these people would talk. I'm not judging, I'm just saying it sticks out like a sore thumb when you take that kind of prose and put it into a fantasy world in a story about demons invading.

It's cringe in every definition of the word, and you can't help suspecting that some of these writers Care Very Deeply About Sex Positivity and completely lack the ability to sell those points with more subtlety than just having these characters blankly stating their sexual desires.

Maybe, maybe not. I do agree it sticks out, but Wenduag is also a completely broken shell of a person. And I think in the end she's really just ruthlessly whoring herself out for increased physical safety and justifying it in a few that makes her feel in control.

(like Irabeth's waivering)

I am very upset there isn't an option to execute her / relieve her of duty on the spot.
(Galfrey incompetence counter: +1)

As for the writing, I think it has some pretty good highs, but also some rather low lows. Definitely more memorable than kingmaker in the end.

 

[RunningWolf]

Lore, story and general writing are all different things. Lore and background for the mythic wasn't written by Owlcat. I think Avellone did narrative design so the main story and questing is competent. The actual writing of companions and dialogue is where all the cringe comes and that's the only part of the writing of which Owlcat can take full credit for.

The same was the case in Kingmaker, where most non-Avellone written NPCs and dialogue were cringe as shit. Like the woman who wanted to be ugly because living her entire life on easy mode was annoying. Or the cuck couple. Or the strong independent wamen whos entire background and personal quest is how she isn't appreciated enough because shes a wamen.

 

[Aarwolf]

Also, Kingmaker did do a pretty good job at making its world HUEG by constantly referring to how other states and peoples viewed the affairs of your nation - often having throne room events, quests etc. reference that.

In comparison WotR feels kind of small so far, but I only just finished Drezen so maybe the game will scale up now.

It will improve a little in chapter 3, when some of your advisors will be mentiong other countries and you'll have a choice regarding some mercs or events. It's nothing big, but there is some flavour.

 

[Daidre]

Lore and background for the mythic wasn't written by Owlcat.

No, I've browsed through the paper version of Wrath and some of the Paizo's lorebooks (they are extremely barebones) and can say for sure that most of the mythic stuff is Owlcat's own thing to the point that it conflicts with official pathfinder's lore, like Gold Dragon being all-merciful hippie instead of proper LG, or Aeon's approach to proper lawfulness. Paizo writers also go much farther when they try to preach their retarded worldview: game's version of Sosiel, for example, is toned down compared to his character in the original AP - he had recovering drug-addict husband there.

Biggest Wrath's issue imho - Owlcat's project leads were too generous with the creative freedom for to their writers, especially for companion's writers. Or maybe they have planned to do an editorial pass at some point but run out of the time and money long before that.

Heh, Nenio had not made it to the beta and her author admitted once (somewhere on runet) that he had like two or three days to write her.

 

[Aarwolf]

As for Nenio, she feels to me like a DLC character - out of place and out of main history. There is no point in her being there and her quest does not link to anything important gamewise. Her lines was slightly funny first time, but in subsequent playthroughs were only annoying, and her quest was nothing but tedious busywork that lead to nothing.

I don't care for her story and her quest and would be glad if she was part of DLC I could never install into the main game.

 

[RunningWolf]

that most of the mythic stuff is Owlcat's own

What i meant is that the lore behind lich or angel is decent not because of Owlcats writing. They written paths to fit specific theme and alignment. Tying mythics to alignment and specific creatures was a huge mistake in itself in my eyes.

Don't see how Sosiels husband would make the character worse as hes already retarded fag in the actual game. In fact removing his monkeypox romance would be an overall improvement.

 

[Lambach]

Ok, my lvl 10 lich sorcerer just got lvl 3 lich and became lvl 13 sorc and got spells as lvl 13 sorc, not just access to Lich spells. Don't know if that is a bug or what is happening.

I'm pretty sure that's how it's supposed to work. One of the main draws of having a Merged Spellbook is precisely the fact that you gain access to higher level spells earlier than you would normally be able to.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ok, my lvl 10 lich sorcerer just got lvl 3 lich and became lvl 13 sorc and got spells as lvl 13 sorc, not just access to Lich spells. Don't know if that is a bug or what is happening.

I'm pretty sure that's how it's supposed to work. One of the main draws of having a Merged Spellbook is precisely the fact that you gain access to higher level spells earlier than you would normally be able to.

At release but they were supposed to change it for spontaneous spellcasters where you no longer get sorcerer spells unless you level up in sorcerer, you are only supposed to get more spells to cast and lich spells from higher spell levels.

Anyways, my 2 man run is going well so far. I had problems just before reaching Mythic 3 vs Mythic Barbarian Vrock that owned my little Inquisitor, Dog, Sorc Mythic 2 party with the fucking Greater Beast Totem ability. I had to redo that fight two times until I learned to get away from him after his first "death" because he gets full attacks. Also I used my Spectre Summon that could not be damage by that Vrock but he kept losing 2 levels per Spectre attack :D
I got my revenge on next one I met after I got my first lich powers. I took Lich ability that makes it so any hit with spells reduces target Str, Dex and Con by 1 point. Funny thing, it counts Magic Missile as 5 hits :D

 

[Daidre]

At release but they were supposed to change it for spontaneous spellcasters where you no longer get sorcerer spells unless you level up in sorcerer, you are only supposed to get more spells to cast and lich spells from higher spell levels.

They have changed it again. Now each Lich/Angel rank has its own progression table for the spell leaning - MR 3 gives extra lvl 1-6 spells, MR 4 lets you learn extra 2-7 lvl spells from the class spellbook and etc. In the end, merged spontaneous caster will end up knowing a lot more spells than unmerged on each spell level, but in the main campaign, your mundane leveling will most likely outpace mythic ranks gains and character will end up knowing only Lich lvl 8-9 spells around Sorc 14/Lich 4.

It is different in DLC 3 btw, since they've added extra crystal for repeat kills of big bosses - Mythic progression wildly outpaces standard leveling comparing to the main campaign, where it is close to impossible to have MR 5 on lvl 11-12 character.

edit: yes, whole system became way more contrived than it should be after Owlcat decided to "fix" it.

 

[ArchAngel]

At release but they were supposed to change it for spontaneous spellcasters where you no longer get sorcerer spells unless you level up in sorcerer, you are only supposed to get more spells to cast and lich spells from higher spell levels.

They have changed it again. Now each Lich/Angel rank has its own progression table for the spell leaning - MR 3 gives extra lvl 1-6 spells, MR 4 lets you learn extra 2-7 lvl spells from the class spellbook and etc. In the end, merged spontaneous caster will end up knowing a lot more spells than unmerged on each spell level, but in the main campaign, your mundane leveling will most likely outpace mythic ranks gains and character will end up knowing only Lich lvl 8-9 spells around Sorc 14/Lich 4.

It is different in DLC 3 btw, since they've added extra crystal for repeat kills of big bosses - Mythic progression wildly outpaces standard leveling comparing to the main campaign, where it is close to impossible to have MR 5 on lvl 11-12 character.

edit: yes, whole system became way more contrived than it should be after Owlcat decided to "fix" it.

That makes sense and it is what happened to me. I got access to lvl 6 spells with lvl 10 sorcerer and I got a bunch of lower level spells as well AND I got all lich spells added to my spellbook. Lich wizard or arcanist is pointless with this system that removes big penalty Sorcerers have.

 

[Desiderius]

Lore, story and general writing are all different things. Lore and background for the mythic wasn't written by Owlcat. I think Avellone did narrative design so the main story and questing is competent. The actual writing of companions and dialogue is where all the cringe comes and that's the only part of the writing of which Owlcat can take full credit for.

The same was the case in Kingmaker, where most non-Avellone written NPCs and dialogue were cringe as shit. Like the woman who wanted to be ugly because living her entire life on easy mode was annoying. Or the cuck couple. Or the strong independent wamen whos entire background and personal quest is how she isn't appreciated enough because shes a wamen.

That’s the first 1/3 of those quests.

Are you a journo?

Sosiels husband

There are limits to what even Western Women can domesticate. Gay sex has proven to be beyond even their formidable powers. See also: pit bulls

They once had men with the courage to remind them of those limits, and enforce them if necessary.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Petruchio

That's what a husband is, not a butt buddy. They were happier then.

 

[RunningWolf]

Their entire character revolved around crying about being beautiful, overcompensating for not having a dick and being a simp, its the defining characteristic not just their quests. Fuck off with your apologetics.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Their entire character revolved around crying about being beautiful, overcompensating for not having a dick and being a simp, its the defining characteristic not just their quests. Fuck off with your apologetics.

At which point did you drop Kingmaker? And Wrath, for that matter.

 

[Humbaba]

Spoiler

having nu-linzi be the betrayer is kindda brilliant tbh, not so much because it's surprising, just because of all the players going "yay, new linzi!"

Still pissed we can't romance her.

Spoiler

But did you manage to figure it out and reveal her before going to drezen?
Also,
Galfrey incompetence counter: +1

You can do that, though the effects are minor if you don't go with her route anyway. Still, cool optional thing.

I did like it though, don't mistake me. It's build up very well in terms of structure, from the moment you hear her slave story you're like "something's missing here, why is she so carefree about her slave status" so it doesn't come out up the blue, it makes sense on some fantasy level. In general I'm kind of suffering from cognitive dissonance with the writing when comparing it to Kingmaker:

- On the one hand, I enjoy some of the writing much more. The main plot, the characters in it, and even some of the companions the way their mysteries are set up. Yeah it's disgustingly high fantasy but I'd rather have something that embraces that fully than try something with more ambitious without having the ability. So often I'm sitting there enjoying the writing much more than Kingmaker - which, while it did get interesting near the end, everything leading up that last chapter, story-wise, was incredibly boring.

- On the other hand, when this writing gets bad, it gets... oh my. Everything sexual said by a companion, a lot of the "dramatic moments" etc. aren't just cringe-inducing, they can arrive completely out of the blue with no build-up (like Irabeth's waivering) and seem to be there because the character needed its "challenges and temptations"-moment from the monomyth. The sex stuff reminds me of this meme from one of my favourite centrist meme sites:

Like, if you know "sex positive" people, the way e.g. Wenduag talks about her fetisch is exactly like these people would talk. I'm not judging, I'm just saying it sticks out like a sore thumb when you take that kind of prose and put it into a fantasy world in a story about demons invading.

It's cringe in every definition of the word, and you can't help suspecting that some of these writers Care Very Deeply About Sex Positivity and completely lack the ability to sell those points with more subtlety than just having these characters blankly stating their sexual desires.

So the obvious conclusions is there were many different writers and one or two were obviously more skilled than the rest; because some plotlines have proper setup, dramatic moments and payoffs, while others are all over the place.

I wouldn't say Irabeth's waivering comes out of nowhere, it's a logical consequence of seeing her men get eaten and turned into ghouls and getting tortured. If she wasn't affected by that in the slightest, people would call her a mary sue.

I will excuse Wenduag all day long because she's a literal troglodyte for whom it would be out of place to have normal sexual morals. Owlcat is low key based to have her, the degenerate cannibal, be the "sex positive" character. Sure it's cringe, but it's also internally consistent.

 

[Jaedar]

Biggest Wrath's issue imho - Owlcat's project leads were too generous with the creative freedom for to their writers, especially for companion's writers. Or maybe they have planned to do an editorial pass at some point but run out of the time and money long before that.

Heh, Nenio had not made it to the beta and her author admitted once (somewhere on runet) that he had like two or three days to write her.

At the same time, I doubt we would have gotten characters like Regill or Camel if there was less creative freedom. I think the writer for Regill even said the other staff kinda hated him (the character, not the writer), but he's probably the best companion in the game. I'll happily leave 3 nenios in the camp if I can get 1 Regill in the party.

 

[Tsubutai]

Biggest Wrath's issue imho - Owlcat's project leads were too generous with the creative freedom for to their writers, especially for companion's writers. Or maybe they have planned to do an editorial pass at some point but run out of the time and money long before that.

Heh, Nenio had not made it to the beta and her author admitted once (somewhere on runet) that he had like two or three days to write her.

At the same time, I doubt we would have gotten characters like Regill or Camel if there was less creative freedom. I think the writer for Regill even said the other staff kinda hated him (the character, not the writer), but he's probably the best companion in the game. I'll happily leave 3 nenios in the camp if I can get 1 Regill in the party.

But mechanically 1 Nenio >>> 3 Regills unless you're playing an arcane full caster yourself. I wish owlcat would start offering more arcane caster options among the npc companions, being stuck with Octavia/Nenio gets tiresome.

 

[Jaedar]

Biggest Wrath's issue imho - Owlcat's project leads were too generous with the creative freedom for to their writers, especially for companion's writers. Or maybe they have planned to do an editorial pass at some point but run out of the time and money long before that.

Heh, Nenio had not made it to the beta and her author admitted once (somewhere on runet) that he had like two or three days to write her.

At the same time, I doubt we would have gotten characters like Regill or Camel if there was less creative freedom. I think the writer for Regill even said the other staff kinda hated him (the character, not the writer), but he's probably the best companion in the game. I'll happily leave 3 nenios in the camp if I can get 1 Regill in the party.

But mechanically 1 Nenio >>> 3 Regills unless you're playing an arcane full caster yourself. I wish owlcat would start offering more arcane caster options among the npc companions, being stuck with Octavia/Nenio gets tiresome.

I can sympathize, but as someone who almost always plays an arcane caster myself, I can't really relate

 

[LannTheStupid]

I think that Octavia and Nenio are the best representations of wizards. They're very helpful, but also quite strange. Take them of leave them.

Personally, I will not play with a "bro" wizard companion. Raistlin, Gandalf and Elric of Melniboné are all Western creations - and I am not even sure that Elric can be counted as a wizard. Even Wynn from Dragon Age: Origins is too stable and rational for a mage. Leave your gandalf's for Rings of Power watchers.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Elric can be counted as a wizard.

Definitely counts as fag.

 

[Delterius]

still can't believe nenio isn't a brown fur transmuter by default what an obvious wasted opportunity

 

[Average Manatee]

That makes sense and it is what happened to me. I got access to lvl 6 spells with lvl 10 sorcerer and I got a bunch of lower level spells as well AND I got all lich spells added to my spellbook. Lich wizard or arcanist is pointless with this system that removes big penalty Sorcerers have.

Well, wizard and arcanist archetypes can still add something unique. Though arguably far less of an advantage compared to what Cleric gets for being a prepared caster compared to Oracle with domains.

Wonder if Arcanist/Lich merging got changed at all. Before it was kind of the worst of both worlds IMO, you didn't get more spells known (because you know them all like wizard), but you were still hugely limited in the number of spells you could have in your spellbook each day (which either got no buff from merging or only got like 1 per level). Abundant casting feats also screwed you with how they only gave you spell casts per day not spells known per day. Way more limiting overall compared to a sorcerer who knew practically every useful spell and had like 10-15 casts per spell level.

 

[Lambach]

Lich wizard or arcanist is pointless with this system that removes big penalty Sorcerers have.

There's also the fact that a Lich becomes fully Undead at MR 9, meaning it completely loses CON as an Ability Score and replaces it and all the benefits it provides with CHA instead - perfect for a Sorc (or at least, for a non-Sage and non-Empyreal Sorc). With all the buffs that are on the regular Sorcerer Spell List + unique Lich buffs + Undead immunities + extra HP from CHA + a dip into Scaled Fist for extra min-maxing if you feel like it (which won't really hurt your spellcasting abilities in any noticeable way) + the right equipment, your Merged Lich/Sorc can also become quite a formidable tank as well, at least on Core and below.

So yeah, if you're going for a Merged Spellbook Lich, mechanically, there's no reason not to go with a Sorc. Unless there's a way that I don't know about for a Lich Wizard or a Lich Arcanist to bump their Spell DCs significantly beyond anything a Lich Sorc can achieve.

 

[Lambach]

Well, wizard and arcanist archetypes can still add something unique.

In Companions, sure. For example, I've waited for my playthrough #3 to hire my first Mercenary Companion, and it was a Brown-Fur Transmuter. Added tremendous value to the Party in no small part because of 'Share Transmutation'. Just the fact that she was able to cast Echolocation on other hard-hitting members of the Party to make sure they don't get fucked by 50% concealment alone was stupid good, not to mention being able to do the same with other very good buffs that are normally personal use only. Dragonkind III + Animal Growth + Transformation (all with 'Powerful Change' on top) on a Smilodon Animal Companion turns it into a nigh-unhittable engine of destruction.

But there doesn't seem to be a lot of sense in having that kind of character as your Lich Merged Spellbook MC - a Sorcerer simply synchronizes far better with that particular (sub-)Path and gets a whole lot more bang for its buck from it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Elric can be counted as a wizard.

Definitely counts as fag.

The swords did that to him.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Well, wizard and arcanist archetypes can still add something unique.

In Companions, sure. For example, I've waited for my playthrough #3 to hire my first Mercenary Companion, and it was a Brown-Fur Transmuter. Added tremendous value to the Party in no small part because of 'Share Transmutation'. Just the fact that she was able to cast Echolocation on other hard-hitting members of the Party to make sure they don't get fucked by 50% concealment alone was stupid good, not to mention being able to do the same with other very good buffs that are normally personal use only. Dragonkind III + Animal Growth + Transformation (all with 'Powerful Change' on top) on a Smilodon Animal Companion turns it into a nigh-unhittable engine of destruction.

But there doesn't seem to be a lot of sense in having that kind of character as your Lich Merged Spellbook MC - a Sorcerer simply synchronizes far better with that particular (sub-)Path and gets a whole lot more bang for its buck from it.

Ley Line and Stigmatized Witch are both spontaneous, Ley Line in particular could be free caster levels once your CHA adds to fortitude saves. Lich merge can mostly replace your weaker Witch spellbook and you'd have access to Hexes.