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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Btw is there any order you must do Drezen in? I’ve sort of just taken a random path and it feels kind of directionsless
Your goal is the citadel at the top. There's multiple ways to get there, some include bonus encounters like trying to batter down the walls, or making your way over/under the walls.

It's pretty freeform in how you accomplish your goal. I like it. Iirc you can even skip the "puzzle" and do a really hard battering ram encounter instead, but I might be misremembering.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The crusader mode is mind-numbingly boring and superflous so far. Never thought something could be less engaging than Kingdom Management but here we are
It wouldn't be boring if you needed more than one army (which was the key to HoMM). Two is nice to cover map more easily and to specialize your armies (three is ideal for that). The problem is that there's little need to do so since it's so faceroll, and it's so faceroll since people who should know better encourage the "hurr, durr, Crusade sux I've played five whole minutes" crew to never even learn the basics.

Biggest problem with it is the faceroll they evidently felt they had to reduce it to due to all the retards refusing to learn how it works.
Eh, arguably yeah, but I think the problems go deeper. The way the healing tent works, ie allowing you to do every combat losslessly, is a major culprit. I also think the balancing is all over the place, with units like marksmen outputting infinite dps whereas shieldbearers may as well not bother attacking half the time.
Kind of need the loselessness to build up critical mass, just needs to be a little more challenging/interesting to achieve it. Speaking of which running Marksmen into the wrong fight is a good way to lose that losslessness. They're glass cannons. Shield Bearers are on the weak side but even they have their uses.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Nah, far from Act 3, I just reached Drezen. We’re in full campaign mode so I only play from laptop and only when we have breaks so from hotel rooms or in the backrooms of TV stations lol

Btw is there any order you must do Drezen in? I’ve sort of just taken a random path and it feels kind of directionsless
I like to get up on the walls to take out Giants/open gates from above, then climb down over by the Tavern and clear back from there. Gives you an open path back to vendor to do everything else.
 

Grunker

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Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
 

Tsubutai

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Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
No, there isn't. It's the same for all of the game's large dungeons/set pieces - even the deepest, foulest, and most secret demonic lairs mysteriously have extensive collections of sanctified relics so you can rest as much as you like without worrying about corruption.
 

Grunker

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Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
No, there isn't. It's the same for all of the game's large dungeons/set pieces - even the deepest, foulest, and most secret demonic lairs mysteriously have extensive collections of sanctified relics so you can rest as much as you like without worrying about corruption.

Sadge. I think on paper Abyssal Corruption might be my favorite anti-Rest system ever. If it wasn't as toothless it would put pressure on you to not rest after every fight, but still not make the game a tedium. The first corruption level is pretty much whatever, and then it gets more serious/crippling, + you can tie the difficulty to skill checks and exploration. I really like the system
 

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
Iirc if you rest via the crusader supplies then no. The actual keep doesn't have free rest spots, but it also has a relic or two.
Kind of need the loselessness to build up critical mass, just needs to be a little more challenging/interesting to achieve it.
I disagree. You should scale into the lategame by having better forces, and more recruitment/month, not by taking 0 losses. It's very silly from a lore perspective that the total casualties in your final crusade against the demons is going to be like 20 people.

. Speaking of which running Marksmen into the wrong fight is a good way to lose that losslessness. They're glass cannons.
They are glass cannons, but they're also really fast, hit ridiculously hard and since they have low hp they're trivial to mass resurrect.

Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
No, there isn't. It's the same for all of the game's large dungeons/set pieces - even the deepest, foulest, and most secret demonic lairs mysteriously have extensive collections of sanctified relics so you can rest as much as you like without worrying about corruption.

Sadge. I think on paper Abyssal Corruption might be my favorite anti-Rest system ever. If it wasn't as toothless it would put pressure on you to not rest after every fight, but still not make the game a tedium. The first corruption level is pretty much whatever, and then it gets more serious/crippling, + you can tie the difficulty to skill checks and exploration. I really like the system
"As much as you want" is an exaggeration. You will always get a decent amount of rests (iirc with good religion you can get like 2-3 before the first penalty, and each relic will give you another 1.5-2.5 or so), but if you rest spam ala BG2 or NWN2 OC you're gonna die.

Imo it works a bit better in chapter 3, since then you're travelling further on the world map, which means you might very well consume 2 rests before even getting to the dungeon. But yeah, overall there's probably a few too many holy relics. I guess it's balanced for people who don't have a character with religion lore?
 

Grunker

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Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
Iirc if you rest via the crusader supplies then no. The actual keep doesn't have free rest spots, but it also has a relic or two.
Kind of need the loselessness to build up critical mass, just needs to be a little more challenging/interesting to achieve it.
I disagree. You should scale into the lategame by having better forces, and more recruitment/month, not by taking 0 losses. It's very silly from a lore perspective that the total casualties in your final crusade against the demons is going to be like 20 people.

. Speaking of which running Marksmen into the wrong fight is a good way to lose that losslessness. They're glass cannons.
They are glass cannons, but they're also really fast, hit ridiculously hard and since they have low hp they're trivial to mass resurrect.

Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
No, there isn't. It's the same for all of the game's large dungeons/set pieces - even the deepest, foulest, and most secret demonic lairs mysteriously have extensive collections of sanctified relics so you can rest as much as you like without worrying about corruption.

Sadge. I think on paper Abyssal Corruption might be my favorite anti-Rest system ever. If it wasn't as toothless it would put pressure on you to not rest after every fight, but still not make the game a tedium. The first corruption level is pretty much whatever, and then it gets more serious/crippling, + you can tie the difficulty to skill checks and exploration. I really like the system
"As much as you want" is an exaggeration. You will always get a decent amount of rests (iirc with good religion you can get like 2-3 before the first penalty, and each relic will give you another 1.5-2.5 or so), but if you rest spam ala BG2 or NWN2 OC you're gonna die.

Imo it works a bit better in chapter 3, since then you're travelling further on the world map, which means you might very well consume 2 rests before even getting to the dungeon. But yeah, overall there's probably a few too many holy relics. I guess it's balanced for people who don't have a character with religion lore?

Honestly even though I'm a masochist Unfair player I think systems like this need to err on the side of caution (i.e. rather allow 1 rest too many than 1 too few). Their primary purporse is to prevent rest spam - not to carefully aim for X rests per day to stress the player. The goal is to do what a GM does with more flexible human systems: make sure the players don't think they can't rest ad infinitum, but allow rests at key points or when they feel earned.

At least for me on Unfair, the system achieved this perfectly in Garrisson (I ended the dungeon a good bit over level 1 corruption because I failed some checks - resting carefully but not ignoring rests).
 

Tsubutai

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"As much as you want" is an exaggeration. You will always get a decent amount of rests (iirc with good religion you can get like 2-3 before the first penalty, and each relic will give you another 1.5-2.5 or so), but if you rest spam ala BG2 or NWN2 OC you're gonna die.

Imo it works a bit better in chapter 3, since then you're travelling further on the world map, which means you might very well consume 2 rests before even getting to the dungeon. But yeah, overall there's probably a few too many holy relics. I guess it's balanced for people who don't have a character with religion lore?
Most of the larger dungeons have three or four corruption-removing relics scattered around, so if you enter with no corruption that's 10+ rests in locations that can be cleared with none or one on unfair even without abusing the most egregiously overpowered stuff. I actually prefer the provisions mechanic in Kingmaker because it imposes somewhat more of a challenge, especially since the passage of time is an important consideration in that game.
 

Humbaba

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SADAT HQ
Vivisectionist is pretty good. Does loads of damage and between the DEX bonus, gear, shield spell and mutagen I can get 31 AC. Access to crit resistance is very nice too.

Glad to see they finally voiced Finnean, now he doesn't feel like a complete afterthought anymore. Seems like they also added a new track for certain indoor areas.

Off to the gray garrison now, don't feel like doing any of the optional encounters in the market square this playthrough.
 

RunningWolf

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Resting restrictions are gay. Annoying early for the casters who already have a tough time at low levels compared to good martial classes. Completely irrelevant later especially with abundant/everlasting/limitless being a thing.

So on the high difficulty the only thing they accomplish is further divide between martials dominating early levels and casters dominating high levels.
 
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Current DLC3 party:
Skald Battle Scion (main)
Cavalier Beast Rider
Cleric Ecclesitheurge
Magus Arcane Rider
Arcanist Brown Fur Transmuter

With the middle 3 all mounted with Fauchards (yes I know it's suboptimal with Magus but I like to AoO things across the room). Skald is giving Seize the Moment to everyone including pets so they can AoO spam on crits across the room.

Few notes on Battle Scion bugs/oddities: Battle Prowess does not actually cost 3 turns of rage per turn of giving rage + teamwork feats. So that's pretty OP and means there's practically no downside to saving everyone tons of feats on feat-starved classes. The downside that is there is that for some stupid reason Battle Prowess is actually locked out of being used if you aren't in battle. So you can't prebuff with it and you have to micromanage pretty hard to get it going off before your pet boys charge in.

Any recommendations for a 6th party member btw? Want some kind of synergy obviously but not sure if I want a 4th pet.

wtb auto saddle up mod
Yeah same.
 
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RunningWolf

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Wenduag Judge melee dual wield: Madness domain out of the box, party wide judgement, sentence(party damage and anti-consealment tool), mount through impossible domain, melee bleed daggers combo and optional mythic weapon specialization late. Seems a lot more useful than an average throwing axe plinker. Thoughts?

Could also be Sanctified Slayer if you're not playing a martial and need more damage.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Is there any penalty for resting in Drezen? It seems kind of weird that you can but otoh there's so much fucking combat unless you're playing on Core or you're a serious GAMER it's probably necessary
No, there isn't. It's the same for all of the game's large dungeons/set pieces - even the deepest, foulest, and most secret demonic lairs mysteriously have extensive collections of sanctified relics so you can rest as much as you like without worrying about corruption.
Not extensive, not really. It is designed for higher rest than P:K, but so is the ruleset with all the classes (like Warpriest) that rely so heavily on rnd/lvl abilities. It's far from trivial to avoid corruption in Labyrinth, for instance, and passing the resting skillchecks on high difficulties isn't either. If you're reloading on every failed skill check you're kind of undermining one of the main sources of challenge in the game, and if you're taking the abilities that allow you to take the RNG out of those checks (and combat) you'll necessarily be toning down some of the c-c-combos that allow you to dominate combat with good RNG.

Any recommendations for a 6th party member btw? Want some kind of synergy obviously but not sure if I want a 4th pet.
WIS-based Scout. Could be a good place to try out Forester. That's the spellbooks you're missing. EDIT: Tactician is redundant with Battle Scion. Hunter of some sort might still be good fit, or just a Freebooter.

They are glass cannons, but they're also really fast, hit ridiculously hard and since they have low hp they're trivial to mass resurrect.
If you're mass resurrecting, you're not nuking, and it has to be done in combat. There are fights where that matters, just not enough of them.
 
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Humbaba

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These subsequent playthroughs are getting easier and easier. Did gray garrison without resting even once this time. Only 2 tries for the Minagho fight, instead of 5000 like last time. What a crapshoot of an encounter.

Completely forgot about rescuing the theatre troop in Kenabres. Oh well! Guess they're dead.

Was very tempted to go with unrelenting assault instead of last stand for my first mythic feat for my melee fighters but then I remembered the gargoyle cave exists and I really don't feel like dropping dead to random crits every other attempt.
 

Grunker

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These subsequent playthroughs are getting easier and easier. Did gray garrison without resting even once this time. Only 2 tries for the Minagho fight, instead of 5000 like last time. What a crapshoot of an encounter.

Minagho is trivialized by Grease because of the DC-buff.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Iirc if you rest via the crusader supplies then no. The actual keep doesn't have free rest spots, but it also has a relic or two.
You can retreat from the Citadel to rest up and sell up back at forward camp. Each rest uses a set of Crusader Supplies so that's anything but limitless but retreating lets you use the supplies scattered around the map to eliminate drained levels and configure spells and abilities for next fight.

Biggest motivation to avoid rest pre-BubbleBuff was to avoid tedium of rebuffing and even with the mod some strategic planning is still required, but it's satisfying to be at your best for each fight. Rest isn't infinite but it's sufficient (there) to do that because you've got your Crusade you've assembled to have your back and you've put in the work to clear out anything that could threaten you there. There are later location where you don't.

Minagho is trivialized by Grease because of the DC-buff.
Sound Burst also works. Need to stop Vrock too.
 

ArchAngel

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Current DLC3 party:
Skald Battle Scion (main)
Cavalier Beast Rider
Cleric Ecclesitheurge
Magus Arcane Rider
Arcanist Brown Fur Transmuter

With the middle 3 all mounted with Fauchards (yes I know it's suboptimal with Magus but I like to AoO things across the room). Skald is giving Seize the Moment to everyone including pets so they can AoO spam on crits across the room.

Few notes on Battle Scion bugs/oddities: Battle Prowess does not actually cost 3 turns of rage per turn of giving rage + teamwork feats. So that's pretty OP and means there's practically no downside to saving everyone tons of feats on feat-starved classes. The downside that is there is that for some stupid reason Battle Prowess is actually locked out of being used if you aren't in battle. So you can't prebuff with it and you have to micromanage pretty hard to get it going off before your pet boys charge in.

Any recommendations for a 6th party member btw? Want some kind of synergy obviously but not sure if I want a 4th pet.

wtb auto saddle up mod
Yeah same.
What I do is start with standard Inspire Rage and then turn on Battle Prowess in next round.
 

IllusiveBrian

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Btw is there any order you must do Drezen in? I’ve sort of just taken a random path and it feels kind of directionsless
Your goal is the citadel at the top. There's multiple ways to get there, some include bonus encounters like trying to batter down the walls, or making your way over/under the walls.

It's pretty freeform in how you accomplish your goal. I like it. Iirc you can even skip the "puzzle" and do a really hard battering ram encounter instead, but I might be misremembering.
I like Drezen but I think my main complaint is that it doesn't have any mechanics to force you to plan out what you're doing or sort of punishment for going too far without letting your allies move up and attract more demons away from you. For example, it could be that if you haven't taken down the stone thrower giants and the first gate, the areas past the second gate will have a lot more demons. The rest makes sense though, battles take hours or days, the same people aren't fighting on the front the whole time, they take shifts and rest.
 
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WIS-based Scout. Could be a good place to try out Forester. That's the spellbooks you're missing.

Scout? Do you mean Hunter (which has forester subclass)? Honestly not sure what the draw of the class is. Looks to be a ranger who sacrifices BAB for slightly more casting, but 6th level spells are still kind of meh and don't look like they'd add much (I want the Brown Fur Transmuter to be casting Mass Bull's Strength, no one else). If I wanted more casting I think I'd take a Druid instead who has same BAB and full spell list, and rather than get 6 teamwork feats (kind of excessive) I'd just give the feats with Battle Scion. Forester does get more stuff in exchange for the pet but still seems distinctly suboptimal if you don't need the teamwork feats.

Edit: Drovier might be interesting. The buffs don't look that good, but they'll go to a lot of people. Kind of curious how good giving the party and animal companions Aspect of the Wolf would be. That's a LOT of free trip attacks everyone can do as a swift action in addition to the normal trip on bite of dogs. I could also get Battle Scion to give Tandem Trip to the whole party.

Edit 2: Though that'd come on pretty late. Can anyone tell me about what level the 2nd run through the isles DLC kills you off?

What I do is start with standard Inspire Rage and then turn on Battle Prowess in next round.

Yeah that's probably the best option now that I have more rage rounds than I know what to do with.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Scout? Do you mean Hunter (which has forester subclass)? Honestly not sure what the draw of the class is. Looks to be a ranger who sacrifices BAB for slightly more casting, but 6th level spells are still kind of meh and don't look like they'd add much (I want the Brown Fur Transmuter to be casting Mass Bull's Strength, no one else). If I wanted more casting I think I'd take a Druid instead who has same BAB and full spell list, and rather than get 6 teamwork feats (kind of excessive) I'd just give the feats with Battle Scion. Forester does get more stuff in exchange for the pet but still seems distinctly suboptimal if you don't need the teamwork feats.

Edit: Drovier might be interesting. The buffs don't look that good, but they'll go to a lot of people. Kind of curious how good giving the party and animal companions Aspect of the Wolf would be. That's a LOT of free trip attacks everyone can do as a swift action in addition to the normal trip on bite of dogs. I could also get Battle Scion to give Tandem Trip to the whole party.
Scout is any character with high Stealth, Perception, and ideally Trickery who can see what's ahead without being seen. Aru is the ideal case since she gets scaling bonuses to Stealth and Perception, but Favored Terrain also boosts Perception while adding Initiative (Forester gets super Favored Terrain - additional bonuses plus treats Favored Terrain as Favored Enemy).

The draw of the Hunter spellbook is that you're missing both Ranger and Druid spells and Hunter combines them. Bull's Strength, Mass is lvl 16 so you're more looking at things like Feather Step, Mass that you get much earlier and it has Hurricane Bow/Lead Blades, Longstrider, Aspect of Falcon, Snowball, Faerie Fire, Magic Fang, Greater, etc. Also has Delay Poison at lvl one and Focused Leopard Pet for early tanking if you grab it early while covering key skills. At some point I listed all the Druid/Ranger utility stuff and it adds up.

That said you've got Scion so Hunter's Tactics/Tactician would be wasted and already have enough pets. Freebooter would be awesome with that team (Arcane Rider really needs it if you're using Spell Combat) and yeah Drovier would probably be decent as well, but less needed since you have Transmuter and Mounts for speed. The problem with Druid is that you're already going to be clogged up in melee and Druid gets no ranged proficiencies. Druids can take a Domain instead of a pet, but not Drovier. Ranger is probably a better bet and Demonslayer is less good in DLC compared to main campaign which makes Booter relatively more appealing, especially with how many Flankers you have.
 
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The favored terrain expertise thing does look interesting, considering it seems 90% of this DLC is underground. I'm guessing it only counts for +2 as a favored enemy bonus when you're on it though, not more that a higher level ranger would get?

Can you tell me about what level the 2nd run through the islands kills you off? I'm leaning towards Drovier since 4 characters + 4 pets with like 16 or 20 trip attempts per turn + sky high stats from brown fur transmuter + everyone having tandem trip from Battle Scion and combat reflexes/Seize the Moment for AoO abuse sounds insane (even an enemy with sky high CMB has to get tripped on critical failures when they are rolling like 20+ times per turn). But Aspect of the Wolf only comes online at level 14 so if I'm either not getting there or only get to use it for a level or two then I'll go Freebooter. Freebooter will definitely be useful since the one thing my melee character's aren't generally doing much is focus firing so he'd do nicely with a bow for that.
 
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