Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Grunker]

Pathfinder games as tight, lol. Nigga if Owlcat games were vaginas you could fuck them with the USS Nimitz

 

[Jaedar]

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

This is not what I am arguing. I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!". Obviously owlcat games are incredibly bloated.

But arguing against satellite DLC by talking about "tightness" and "coherence" in relation to a Pathfinder game? Get outta here nigga

You know what would fix this already bad bloat? More content!

 

[Grunker]

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!".

Who made this argument again?

 

[user]

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

This is not what I am arguing. I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!". Obviously owlcat games are incredibly bloated.

Wrath is much more than I could have hoped for in this day and age, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

One thing that makes the game feel bloated to me was all these bland locations where they just had one or a sequence of bland battles. Another is that, as the time goes by, 90% of these crusade decisions you take have an inconsequential effect (that is also because the crusade system itself sucks - there is no real resource management). The puzzles and their rewards in general are also atrocious. And a bunch of demons everywhere - ok it's the Worldwound, but I would have liked more variety.

To be fair, Owlcat has made an effort for dungeons to not just be a series of encounters, always including some kind of NPC in them, but to little effect. For example Jerribeth in Ivory, the slave/hundred-face in Blackwater, or the lich in the Baphomet's prison. They end up being mostly fluff though. Most impactful of these random examples is Jerribeth where, to my knowledge, you are just able to make some encounters easier.

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!".

Who made this argument again?

I did - because I refuse to believe that a game with the scale of WotR couldn't have been better.

 

[Grunker]

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

This is not what I am arguing. I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!". Obviously owlcat games are incredibly bloated.

Wrath is much more than I could have hoped for in this day and age, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

One thing that makes the game feel bloated to me was all these bland locations where they just had one or a sequence of bland battles. Another is that, as the time goes by, 90% of these crusade decisions you take have an inconsequential effect (that is also because the crusade system itself sucks - there is no real resource management). The puzzles and their rewards in general are also atrocious. And a bunch of demons everywhere - ok it's the Worldwound, but I would have liked more variety.

To be fair, Owlcat has made an effort for dungeons to not just be a series of encounters, always including some kind of NPC in them, but to little effect. For example Jerribeth in Ivory, the slave/hundred-face in Blackwater, or the lich in the Baphomet's prison. They end up being mostly fluff though. Most impactful of these random examples is Jerribeth where, to my knowledge, you are just able to make some encounters easier.

But Pathfinder games ain't fucking that, the very notion is ludicrous, lol.

I am arguing against "A good game can never be too large you imbeciles!".

Who made this argument again?

I did - because I refuse to believe that a game with the scale of WotR couldn't have been better.

There's a difference between "bloated game won't get worse from getting a superquality extra area" and "no good games EVER despite their design will be worse by getting too large", which is what Jaedar is saying he is responding to

 

[user]

Since manhours and resources are limited, a drop in quality is the natural side-effect for a game that gets too large. But what I meant to say, is that the size of the game is not the inherent problem here. And the more improvements the base game gets, the less of a slog it will feel.

Crusade mode that is in shit condition is a good example of that, because it's something they have already spent resources on, but they don't even exploit it properly. They made a bunch of assets, units, abilities and so on, most of which are barely used in the game, and they are so terribly balanced there is no room for any tactical gameplay.

 

[Desiderius]

there is no room for any tactical gameplay

It's closer than you might think. All it needs is some enemies that require different types of armies/generals to effectively counter and situations that require >1 good army to profitably tackle. That isn't that hard to add. Once those things are something you need there is a good bit of resource management involved in achieving it.

As it is, I had to put some thought into getting that +4 STR belt from the 6 STR Ash Giant army so Tower Shield Seelah could traverse the map unencumbered.

 

[Desiderius]

I cast Blur on my MC for the first time now all enemies on the map (Lost Chapel) have Partial Concealment (20% miss chance on all attacks from my team).

Anybody else seen this?

 

[user]

there is no room for any tactical gameplay

It's closer than you might think. All it needs is some enemies that require different types of armies/generals to effectively counter and situations that require >1 good army to profitably tackle. That isn't that hard to add. Once those things are something you need there is a good bit of resource management involved in achieving it.

As it is, I had to put some thought into getting that +4 STR belt from the 6 STR Ash Giant army so Tower Shield Seelah could traverse the map unencumbered.

Yeah the enemy armies are a joke... Enemy generals should revive and level up like in HoMM until you get a fortress and each general should be different. But I think it still needs a lot more than that. Every general can have a huge hospital, cure, arcane spells, lots of mana and time to regenerate and even if you rush things, you can cheese your way through without any losses. Power scaling is still ridiculous (and I think they nerfed it early on) as well as a lot of spells, like the channel negative energy (think it's lich only) or the Azata spell which heals friendly and damages enemy adjacent units, both of which win in one round. I only used spells other than nukes just for the lols - maybe a summon spell once or twice to divert enemy fire in the early game. Unit balance is out of whack as well - some units which should be low tier have either too much hp or damage.

As for the flavor, you get all kinds of irrelevant silly units that you end up dismissing and you only get mythic specific units too late in the game (the lich is the only one who has a somewhat unique crusade experience with necromancy so far) and you get tiny amounts of these units in the worst way possible - decrees, summon cooldowns etc. For example my demon can summon a few dretches every week - and these are worth nothing in comparison to the normal recruitable army which I can easily hire with the resources available. And the funny thing is that when I got that ability I had already beaten every army in the map. Same experience I had with the Azata on CH3 (I don't even remember any MP-specific units there, there probably was some small forgotten stack of units somewhere). Same with the last tier units on CH5 - I can get like 7 of them with a decree, but they are not even worth giving to the level 1 general who is afk outside of Drezen and I gathered like 21 before I cleared everything and ended up never using them.

But yes, in the end, they have created a bunch of content - units, abilities etc - but it's pointless if they don't use it correctly.

 

[Desiderius]

All those "irrelevant, silly" units are what you use to man your second and third armies if you manage your Merc buildings well. And you can even build up a decent supply of some of the Specialty Units if you keep the decrees regularly firing.

I had a Melee General with a SoD of 5,000 Conscripts in one game along with a big Beer Elemental stack.

Only thing stopping all that from mattering is the fact that you only need one army or two max. If you needed three to cover the map (especially if there were seriously Magic Resistant foes for instance where a Melee General would have a big advantage) then a lot of the things that look out of balance now wouldn't be so much.

 

[Yosharian]

Modders can fix it!!!1

 

[LannTheStupid]

Most of the Gargs in Garg Cave (that fight had to be balensed around somebody other than the party being able to do some damage without it all getting eaten by DR - Yaker and Reg even have Magic Weapons that don't bypass it - after the first hit that does lol*) are Humanoids with 5 HD so perfect for Scare spam (Shaken on made save, 11 SR can be bypassed consistently at lvl 7 with Robe w/o Spell Pen Feats). Rainbow Pattern from Nenio is ok but the piddly damage from the HKs is just enough to wake everything up. Confusion spam from Ember/Nenio should be decent though, and/or Slow from Wolj. Big thing is taking down Clerics and Wend + Luck Domain ability (Swift from Zealot) from Sos took care of that (would have been better with Enlarged Wend with Holy Weapon).

Only "Half-Fiend" Gargoyles are immune to poison, and the strongest of them - the High Cleric IIRC - is not a Half-Fiend. So Stinking Cloud + Delay Poison, Communal work wonders. Also, Greater Invisibility + Bless Weapon on Woljif with daggers make him a very efficient meat grinder.

 

[Desiderius]

I think you meant Magic Weapon but I just use Finnean and the Blind on Crit +1. Scare and Cause Fear also work on most of them because outside of the Clerics they only have 5 HD, and the DR 5/Magic shield also works against Garg attacks since they're not Magic either. Bracer of Rough Landing is great, as is Rock of Nature. I've got no issues being effective there with my team.

The problem is that Reg has a +1 weapon that doesn't bypass DR/Magic. This is a bug. I'd be willing to bet Yaker has one too.

 

[LannTheStupid]

1. I don't understand why a +1 weapon should bypass DR/Magic. Please, explain with the link.
2. I used Bless Weapon to auto confirm crits, and with the Shiny Dagger 1 round of blindness is quite a nice addition to the total damage.

Anyway, I wanted to try a trickster run and I intended to use SpellBookMerger, Toybox and probably a buffbot mod. Do you have any mod to or not to recommand ?

Easy.

Don't play with any mods until EE is stable. Which means - until Owlcat Games release the first 2.1.* patch.

Otherwise, pray to Machine Spirit, Jesus Christ or whatever other imaginary friends you have.

 

[Daidre]

I cast Blur on my MC for the first time now all enemies on the map (Lost Chapel) have Partial Concealment (20% miss chance on all attacks from my team).

There is blizzard on the Chapel map, everyone got 20% concealment chance from weather.

Anybody else seen this?

Many people notice this. Your comrades in mental development ask about it each week on reddit/steam forum.

And then they start bitching like a petulant children that Owlcat ignores their "bug" reports.

 

[Desiderius]

Because that’s what DR/Magic means. It’s why all the weapons the party uses (if you use the +1 weapons you should have by that point) don’t have their damage reduced. Since it’s DR/10 for the Gargs it pretty much just makes all the Hellknights irrelevant, which can’t be intended from a plot or gameplay perspective.

Wolj shouldn’t need Bless Weapon to confirm his crits if you give him Outflank at lvl 7.

 

[Desiderius]

I cast Blur on my MC for the first time now all enemies on the map (Lost Chapel) have Partial Concealment (20% miss chance on all attacks from my team).

There is blizzard on the Chapel map, everyone got 20% concealment chance from weather.

Anybody else seen this?

Many people notice this. Your comrades in mental development ask about it each week on reddit/steam forum.

And then they start bitching like a petulant children that Owlcat ignores their "bug" reports.

Which I didn’t do. I asked the question and you answered it. Seriously, WTF.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Because that’s what DR/Magic means. It’s why all the weapons the party uses (if you use the +1 weapons you should have by that point) don’t have their damage reduced. Since it’s DR/10 for the Gargs it pretty much just makes all the Hellknights irrelevant, which can’t be intended from a plot or gameplay perspective.

Wolj shouldn’t need Bless Weapon to confirm his crits if you give him Outflank at lvl 7.

1. You have provided no links. Which means your answer is pointless.
2. Outflank does not auto confirm crits. Bless Weapon does. I will not provide any links for my claim, either.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Regarding the strategic layer: I think Owlcat's were spooked when it appeared that Kingmaker can be lost due to poor Kingdom Management, and their most profitable - Western - audience raised a hue and cry. As the result, Owlcat made the HoMM-lite as insignificant as they could, and so - boring.

 

[Desiderius]

Hue and cry is a good thing. Facebook will pay good money to people who can generate rage clicks.

There’s no record of a game in this genre that lost money for being too challenging. Deadfire release did bomb from being too faceroll. DOS I/II has some very tough gateway fights until you get the hang of it. Likewise, you know, the HoMM series.

T-level crash hitting RUS *hard*.

 

[user]

All those "irrelevant, silly" units are what you use to man your second and third armies if you manage your Merc buildings well. And you can even build up a decent supply of some of the Specialty Units if you keep the decrees regularly firing.

I had a Melee General with a SoD of 5,000 Conscripts in one game along with a big Beer Elemental stack.

Only thing stopping all that from mattering is the fact that you only need one army or two max. If you needed three to cover the map (especially if there were seriously Magic Resistant foes for instance where a Melee General would have a big advantage) then a lot of the things that look out of balance now wouldn't be so much.

Always hire 3 generals so that I don't have to move to defend against enemy armies and place them around gloomy, ferry and yath. They don't attack treasonhome from my experience. And go for master of maneuver in all of them.
5k conscripts? Are you trying to participate to Pathfinder's next campaign chronologically?

 

[IllusiveBrian]

If they aren't going to make any other changes to the crusade battles, at least give us the option to pick a mythic unit for training right at the start of Act 5, not just before the last map battle of it.

 

[Desiderius]

There is blizzard on the Chapel map, everyone got 20% concealment chance from weather.

There's no weather effect icon*, which there usually is for things like Thunderstorms that impair Perception and movement for instance.

I vaguely recall there once being something like that on this map.

* - is this a mod issue? Do other people have it?

 

[Barbarian]

Does the lesbian orc paladin and her bulldyke "wife" die eventually? Can you get them to die?

I fucking hate this kind of in your face shit. And from a russian studio no less. Even worse than the "ORKED!" bissexual elf in an open relationship from the previous game. At least vou could leave those two annoying degenerates to die or kick them out of your party.

I hope Putin sends the people responsible for this to a very cold gulag.

 

[Desiderius]

Always hire 3 generals so that I don't have to move to defend against enemy armies and place them around gloomy, ferry and yath. They don't attack treasonhome from my experience. And go for master of maneuver in all of them.
5k conscripts? Are you trying to participate to Pathfinder's next campaign chronologically?

But only one of those armies (or two max) needs to have much strength in vanilla.

If you get all the extra Merc choices buildings up (and Merc boost building) you can make sure the mercs you want come up often enough to build their stacks as high as your regular recruits. That would give you three full strength armies each with unique strengths and weaknesses. But unlike HoMM there's no need for them.

BTW LannTheStupid some of the backlash against P:K KM (most of it was the usual 110 IQ Reddit self-pwnage) was due to the mechanics/goals being poorly documented/opaque. Owlcat developed a very comprehensive tutorial mode for Wrath that solves that problem and you've already got a lot of people familiar with how HoMM works that would help everyone else along if the implementation were less incomplete.