Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Haplo]

Yeah, also the Talent that drains Con on sneak attacks.. that could be good.

 

[Lambach]

The first thing you'd do if you wanted to make it stronger is to use a weapon instead of Claws - it's an improvement on almost every level. But hey, Claws go brrrrrrr

That would go against the "Rip and Tear" LARP I've got going. I also really like the Claw attack animation.

I'm only on Core and I'm strong enough at this point to not need an extra "oomph", but I might switch to using a weapon later on if I feel like I'm not keeping up with my overwhelming superiority in terms of power compared to other Party members.

I assume you took at peek at me and Daidre's combined effort here?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16qq--FuBKw86vLMhPajQMr8ij5zAvsSN4n1rsrcaTR8/edit?usp=sharing

From a quick glance, you're missing bites from Wolf-Scarred, Serpentine Bloodline and DD - but those are harder to get with your build, which is more streamlined than mine.

EDIT: Also if you bring Ember, she can give you a Bite with one of the Major Hexes for a long duration (in fact, she can give this to the entire party).

I went pure Vivisectionist so far mostly because I wanted to progress through the Spell List ASAP (and also get improved Mutagens). Lotta really good Buffs in there that are very much needed. But now that I have access to Level 4 Spells, dipping seems like a better prospect because Level 5 Vivisectionist Spells are garbage and all the good Level 6 ones can be cast on you by other Party members (sans Transformation).

Will benefits from Bloodrager Rage stack with benefits from Skald's Inspired Rage? If not, then Bloodrager is out because the Skald gives me two extra attacks instead of just one (Bite + Gore).

And those 1-level thematically inappropriate dips like Oracle + Sorcerer (to unlock Dragon Disciple) hurt my soul.

EDIT: Also if you bring Ember, she can give you a Bite with one of the Major Hexes for a long duration (in fact, she can give this to the entire party).

Huh, would you look at that. I completely stop paying attention to new Hexes after a certain point and just pick them at random once I get the essential ones (Evil Eye, Protective Luck, Fortune, Cackle).

 

[Yosharian]

Role-playing rather than optimizing... disgusting.

A true demon would use whatever granted him the most power.

Will benefits from Bloodrager Rage stack with benefits from Skald's Inspired Rage? If not, then Bloodrager is out because the Skald gives me two extra attacks instead of just one (Bite + Gore).

I've got some bad news for you, you can't benefit from Inspired Rage and Bloodrage at the same time. If a Bloodrager activates Bloodrage, he loses all Inspired Rage bonuses, including any totems or other powers granted by the Skald. A Demon character can activate Demonic Rage and automatically gain any Bloodrage bonuses/powers he has, but again this overwrites Inspired Rage.

 

[Lambach]

But I'd not use the Fiend Totem on your Skald.

I am also thinking this was a mistake. The Lesser version gives that one exrta Gore attack, but the regular one is pretty crappy and the Greater one is outright useless because it only works on non-Evil creatures. Not sure why that was even implemented into this game.

Role-playing rather than optimizing... disgusting.

A true demon would use whatever granted him the most power.

Well, it's only Core. Fully optimizing is not exactly super necessary. One day I might start an Unfair run and min-max my dick off, but it is not this day.

I've got some bad news for you, you can't benefit from Inspired Rage and Bloodrage at the same time. If a Bloodrager activates Bloodrage, he loses all Inspired Rage bonuses, including any totems or other powers granted by the Skald.

Yup, I assumed as much.

 

[Grunker]

That would go against the "Rip and Tear" LARP I've got going. I also really like the Claw attack animation.

Indeed. I'm using claws myself.

On full Unfair

 

[Yosharian]

Spoiler

 

[Yosharian]

More testing with Demon. This ability:

Aspect of Kalavakus​

Demonic Aspect​

Demon adopts the aspect of Kalavakus, gaining a bonus on all Perception, Athletics, and Use Magic Device skill checks equal to half of the Demon's mythic rank plus one. Those bonuses do not stack with other bonuses from demonic aspects.

While in demonic rage, the Demon with an aspect of Kalavakus gains a +2 bonus to CMD, CMB, and natural armor to AC. The bonus increases by +1 at 6th and 9th mythic rank.

Whenever the Demon with an aspect of Kalavakus succeeds at a combat manuever check during a demonic rage, the Demon can make an attack against that target as a free action. When the Demon with an aspect of Kalavakus hits with a charge attack during a demonic rage, the Demon can attempt to disarm the target as a free action.

is completely fucked. In my testing I am getting 10 free attacks whenever I charge something. I have no idea if the number of attacks is tied to anything - I tried increasing my available AOOs and it didn't change the number. Anyway, supposedly the aspect triggers a disarm action on the target, which provokes a 'free attack'.

Only there is never a disarm action taken in the combat log. Oh sure, a disarm actually takes place (i checked, the target was actually disarmed), but is there even a saving throw? Who fucking knows. What determines how many bonus attacks you get? Who fucking knows.

It gets juicier:

Aspect of Schir​

Demonic Aspect​

Demon adopts the aspect of Schir, gaining a bonus on all Lore (Nature), Mobility, and Athletics skill checks equal to half of the Demon's mythic rank plus one. Those bonuses do not stack with other bonuses from demonic aspects.

While in demonic rage, the Demon with an aspect of Schir gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls. The bonus increases by +1 at 6th and 9th mythic rank.

During a demonic rage, the Demon with an aspect of Schir gains a Powerful Charge ability, increasing the number of weapon damage dice by two and applying an additional one and a half of the Demon's Strength bonus to damage from the charge.

This thing isn't increasing my weapon dice by two, it's increasing Grave Singer's 1D12 to 5D12. Which then gets multiplied by your effective crit modifier (which currently I am aiming to push up to x5). So the base weapon damage can end up at 25D12. (note that it doesn't stack with other increases to your weapon die, such as Size or Lead Blades - though those will count for subsequent attacks)

The STR mod to damage is just as nutty - my character currently will have a STR modifier of +27, +40 on 2H attacks, so Schir increases the STR mod to damage of this charge attack (but not the subsequent free attacks, note) to +80.

Just for reference

 

[Yosharian]

Sword Saint 20 might actually be the most powerful build because multiplying your insane base weapon damage by as high a multiplier as possible could be the most effective route to high damage. And pure SS is pretty good anyway, if a bit... narrow in scope.

5D12 base damage, multiplied by x6 = 195, then you have your bonus damage on top of that which you should be able to get around +100 at least, so that's 600 damage on a crit, total damage is around 800, then you have Mythic Charge on top of that.

You could make a pretty good Vital Strike build out of this if you wanted I guess

 

[Lambach]

You could make a pretty good Vital Strike build out of this if you wanted I guess

So what's the deal with Vital Strike builds? I know they're capable of dishing out absurd damage at once, but they don't seem very reliable. Without Trickster, you have at most a 30% chance of disintegrating most non-bosses into atoms in a single round, but also a 70% chance of doing nothing special during that round. Do Vital Strikes hurt even without a Crit?

 

[Haplo]

Will benefits from Bloodrager Rage stack with benefits from Skald's Inspired Rage? If not, then Bloodrager is out because the Skald gives me two extra attacks instead of just one (Bite + Gore).

I've got some bad news for you, you can't benefit from Inspired Rage and Bloodrage at the same time. If a Bloodrager activates Bloodrage, he loses all Inspired Rage bonuses, including any totems or other powers granted by the Skald. A Demon character can activate Demonic Rage and automatically gain any Bloodrage bonuses/powers he has, but again this overwrites Inspired Rage.

You sure about that, Yosh? Discord seems to claim otherwise.

 

[Haplo]

Sword Saint 20 might actually be the most powerful build because multiplying your insane base weapon damage by as high a multiplier as possible could be the most effective route to high damage. And pure SS is pretty good anyway, if a bit... narrow in scope.

5D12 base damage, multiplied by x6 = 195, then you have your bonus damage on top of that which you should be able to get around +100 at least, so that's 600 damage on a crit, total damage is around 800, then you have Mythic Charge on top of that.

You could make a pretty good Vital Strike build out of this if you wanted I guess

That's... frankly sick

 

[Haplo]

Aspect of Schir​

Demonic Aspect​

Demon adopts the aspect of Schir, gaining a bonus on all Lore (Nature), Mobility, and Athletics skill checks equal to half of the Demon's mythic rank plus one. Those bonuses do not stack with other bonuses from demonic aspects.

While in demonic rage, the Demon with an aspect of Schir gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls. The bonus increases by +1 at 6th and 9th mythic rank.

During a demonic rage, the Demon with an aspect of Schir gains a Powerful Charge ability, increasing the number of weapon damage dice by two and applying an additional one and a half of the Demon's Strength bonus to damage from the charge.

This thing isn't increasing my weapon dice by two, it's increasing Grave Singer's 1D12 to 5D12. Which then gets multiplied by your effective crit modifier (which currently I am aiming to push up to x5). So the base weapon damage can end up at 25D12. (note that it doesn't stack with other increases to your weapon die, such as Size or Lead Blades - though those will count for subsequent attacks)

So those bonuses don't work with Pounce?

 

[Yosharian]

Will benefits from Bloodrager Rage stack with benefits from Skald's Inspired Rage? If not, then Bloodrager is out because the Skald gives me two extra attacks instead of just one (Bite + Gore).

I've got some bad news for you, you can't benefit from Inspired Rage and Bloodrage at the same time. If a Bloodrager activates Bloodrage, he loses all Inspired Rage bonuses, including any totems or other powers granted by the Skald. A Demon character can activate Demonic Rage and automatically gain any Bloodrage bonuses/powers he has, but again this overwrites Inspired Rage.

You sure about that, Yosh? Discord seems to claim otherwise.

Yes, I literally tested it days ago

 

[Yosharian]

Ok this is super fucking weird, it's working now. Let me test it a bit more

 

[Haplo]

I know some rage interactions were being fixed. Mostly related to Demon Rage, but not only I think.

 

[Yosharian]

Ok no they were not, on a hunch I figured it might be an order issue because the way I constructed my party is for Inspire Rage to always be the first thing that is cast (my Bard has +41 Initiative)

Sure enough everything works fine when Demonic Rage is the first thing to be cast, but if Inspired Rage is cast first, it's a no-go. And this is super bad because usually you either want IR to be the first thing cast, or you pre-cast it when able. So having to put DR first (which is a combat-only ability) requires some planning, or loss of efficiency. Actually it's always a loss of efficiency, because you never want to take your turn while not having IR up.

Proof:

Spoiler

 

[Lambach]

I know some rage interactions were being fixed.

Why fix it? The bonus sources are named differently (Rage and Inspired Rage), so there's no overlap. I'd love it if Spells like Bull's Strength gave an Inspired Enhancement to Ability Scores so they could stack with Enhancement bonuses from Belts and such.

 

[Yosharian]

Bonus bug discovery - Transfixing Charge, which is meant to only trigger on mounted charges, is actually triggering in full when not mounted. Just a basic charge will do. This is pretty huge.

Spoiler

 

[Yosharian]

I know some rage interactions were being fixed.

Why fix it? The bonus sources are named differently (Rage and Inspired Rage), so there's no overlap. I'd love it if Spells like Bull's Strength gave an Inspired Enhancement to Ability Scores so they could stack with Enhancement bonuses from Belts and such.

it's not about the Rage bonuses to AB/DMG stacking, it's about the interactions between the various rage powers such as totems and stances when both the recipient and the Skald have those powers. Turns out there is a way to eat all the cake, but you have to cast the recipient rage first then activate IR

 

[Lambach]

it's not about the Rage bonuses to AB/DMG stacking, it's about the interactions between the various rage powers such as totems and stances when both the recipient and the Skald have those powers. Turns out there is a way to eat all the cake, but you have to cast the recipient rage first then activate IR

Now that sounds like it should be fixed. Either the two Rages should always stack or they never should. Everything else seems like a bug exploit, which in all honesty I might use on Unfair, but certainly not on Core.

 

[Yosharian]

it's not about the Rage bonuses to AB/DMG stacking, it's about the interactions between the various rage powers such as totems and stances when both the recipient and the Skald have those powers. Turns out there is a way to eat all the cake, but you have to cast the recipient rage first then activate IR

Now that sounds like it should be fixed. Either the two Rages should always stack or they never should. Everything else seems like a bug exploit, which in all honesty I might use on Unfair, but certainly not on Core.

it should be fixed

Yeah I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'm sure the next patch is going to dumpster my build somehow with a targeted nerf though!

 

[Lambach]

I'm sure the next patch is going to dumpster my build somehow with a targeted nerf though!

If Elemental Barrage (ab)users found a way to carry on after it was nuked into perfect uselessness, I'm sure you'll be able to handle anything they might throw at you.

 

[Haplo]

Ok no they were not, on a hunch I figured it might be an order issue because the way I constructed my party is for Inspire Rage to always be the first thing that is cast (my Bard has +41 Initiative)

Sure enough everything works fine when Demonic Rage is the first thing to be cast, but if Inspired Rage is cast first, it's a no-go. And this is super bad because usually you either want IR to be the first thing cast, or you pre-cast it when able. So having to put DR first (which is a combat-only ability) requires some planning, or loss of efficiency. Actually it's always a loss of efficiency, because you never want to take your turn while not having IR up.

Proof:

Spoiler

What if you don't have Demonic Rage / don't want to use it?

 

[Haplo]

Bonus bug discovery - Transfixing Charge, which is meant to only trigger on mounted charges, is actually triggering in full when not mounted. Just a basic charge will do. This is pretty huge.

Spoiler

Coded same as Disciple of the Pike, perhaps? Although I guess Deadly Charge is supposed to be a little weaker.

 

[Yosharian]

Ok no they were not, on a hunch I figured it might be an order issue because the way I constructed my party is for Inspire Rage to always be the first thing that is cast (my Bard has +41 Initiative)

Sure enough everything works fine when Demonic Rage is the first thing to be cast, but if Inspired Rage is cast first, it's a no-go. And this is super bad because usually you either want IR to be the first thing cast, or you pre-cast it when able. So having to put DR first (which is a combat-only ability) requires some planning, or loss of efficiency. Actually it's always a loss of efficiency, because you never want to take your turn while not having IR up.

Proof:

Spoiler

What if you don't have Demonic Rage / don't want to use it?

If you don't have Demonic Rage then you never have a reason to activate your rage simultaneously with Inspired Rage so the question is moot.

I mean, unless you somehow have more Barb/BR class levels than your Skald, which.. I dunno why taht would be the case

The optimal scenario for a non-Demon is you take a couple of levels to pick up a rage power such as an additional stance then your Skald will activate it along with his own

This doesn't work for totems though, only the Skald's totem will take effect