Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[FreeKaner]

It is really unfortunate how feast or famine offensive spell casting is because of spell resistance mechanic and how liberally it is used by Owlcat. It makes hybrid casters very unsatisfying even when they should be good in certain paths (like Demon which gives a lot of DC, save rerolls while also boosting your melee capabilities) because at the end of day you are either passing the spell resistance or you don't. Not saying that a hybrid should be as effective as a full caster but they could get something out of it if they invest, there are a lot of spells that do half-effect or reduced effect even on a save after all. Right now you either invest enough and you can pass the check or you don't and all that investment was for nothing and you were better off casting buffs.

If you want to bypass it you have the tools. All about trade-offs. You can also use Conj spells (and a few others - Angel spells notably) that already bypass it. There's a short span in the game where you can't beat all the SR but you can use Piercing Meta/Rods for that if you want.

I usually go all-in on Spell Pen for Nenio for her Illusion spells and use some Conj spells until that comes online. Hybrids aren't supposed to be able to own the toughest foes with casting anyway. They've got enough for regular mobs, both DC and Spell Pen.

Are you really giving Nenio as an example against how hybrid offensive casting is bad? I mean Nenio is an offensive caster with a good archetype that already starts with illusion focus so you can go phantasmal killer/weird/shadow spells on her comfortably and beat most SR, if you get right items on her she can probably pass SR on basically just about anything on very low rolls. Saying Nenio with full penetration can bypass spell resistance is not really an argument against hybrid offensives being bad at it though is it? You delay your spell progression / caster levels even a bit and you are significantly set back. That is not even getting to the fact you would probably being filtered on rolls against saves already, which should have been the trade off in the first place.

My point rather is exactly that it is not about trade-offs at all. Unless your trade off is you trade off something for nothing. You trade off a bit of spell levels / caster levels and you are simply not going to pass SR because you got +7 at level 10 (caster level 5 with spellpen, casting level 3 spells so also lower on DC) vs. having +12 (caster level 10 with spellpen, higher on DC because higher skill level, higher caster level), that is 40% chance to pass the SR vs. 15% chance to pass it against common 24 SR for example, it is a huge difference even if not passing the saves would be okay after passing the SR and even worse if you want to pass it (since half-effects and reduced effets exists). A full caster can cast phantasmal killer, comfortably beat the SR with a medium roll, then have a good chance against the saves because of higher base stat, more feats spent on spell focus and what not, while a hybrid has to bypass a 15% chance to maybe have another 15% chance to beat the saves, that is just not a good way to play the game unless you want to reload until you get 2-3 high rolls in a row.

If SR wasn't at such a level that basically meant you had to roll your caster level against enemies, as a hybrid with lower main casting stat and lower level spells you could at least hope to get off half-effects and reduced effects on offensive spells, while very rarely getting full effects if ever. Which would be a decent trade off.

 

[Desiderius]

It is really unfortunate how feast or famine offensive spell casting is because of spell resistance mechanic and how liberally it is used by Owlcat. It makes hybrid casters very unsatisfying even when they should be good in certain paths (like Demon which gives a lot of DC, save rerolls while also boosting your melee capabilities) because at the end of day you are either passing the spell resistance or you don't. Not saying that a hybrid should be as effective as a full caster but they could get something out of it if they invest, there are a lot of spells that do half-effect or reduced effect even on a save after all. Right now you either invest enough and you can pass the check or you don't and all that investment was for nothing and you were better off casting buffs.

If you want to bypass it you have the tools. All about trade-offs. You can also use Conj spells (and a few others - Angel spells notably) that already bypass it. There's a short span in the game where you can't beat all the SR but you can use Piercing Meta/Rods for that if you want.

I usually go all-in on Spell Pen for Nenio for her Illusion spells and use some Conj spells until that comes online. Hybrids aren't supposed to be able to own the toughest foes with casting anyway. They've got enough for regular mobs, both DC and Spell Pen.

Are you really giving Nenio as an example against how hybrid offensive casting is bad? I mean Nenio is an offensive caster with a good archetype that already starts with illusion focus so you can go phantasmal killer/weird/shadow spells on her comfortably and beat most SR, if you get right items on her she can probably pass SR on basically just about anything on very low rolls. Saying Nenio with full penetration can bypass spell resistance is not really an argument against hybrid offensives being bad at it though is it? You delay your spell progression / caster levels even a bit and you are significantly set back. That is not even getting to the fact you would probably being filtered on rolls against saves already, which should have been the trade off in the first place.

My point rather is exactly that it is not about trade-offs at all. Unless your trade off is you trade off something for nothing. You trade off a bit of spell levels / caster levels and you are simply not going to pass SR because you got +7 at level 10 (caster level 5 with spellpen, casting level 3 spells so also lower on DR) vs. having +12 (caster level 10 with spellpen, higher on DR because higher skill level, higher caster level), that is 40% chance to pass the SR vs. 15% chance to pass it against common 24 SR for example, it is a huge difference even if not passing the saves would be okay after passing the SR and even worse if you want to pass it (since half-effects and reduced effets exists). A full caster can cast phantasmal killer, comfortably beat the SR with a medium roll, then have a good chance against the saves because of higher base stat, more feats spent on spell focus and what not, while a hybrid has to bypass a 15% chance to maybe have another 15% chance to beat the saves, that is just not a good way to play the game unless you want to reload until you get 2-3 high rolls in a row.

If SR wasn't at such a level that basically meant you had to roll your caster level against enemies, as a hybrid with lower main casting stat and lower level spells you could at least hope to get off half-effects and reduced effects on offensive spells, while very rarely getting full effects if ever. Which would be a decent trade off.

No, I'm saying that she's the one where it's worth investing in the Feats and items to bypass SR. Hybrids can do the same thing if you invest the same Feats and Items (but there are only so many to go around). And if you're rolling that low you're looking at a narrow span of a couple levels and applying it to the whole game or haven't found half the ways the game gives you already to beat SR.

What's the point of pure casters if hybrids can do everything they can do? Seriously the nerftards are out of control.

Hybrids get full CL, what are you talking about? Take the dip pay the price sucka. That's... the trade-off. No, I don't want a game where Rangers can save-or-die optional bosses thx.

basically meant you had to roll your caster level against enemies

I... don't. Git gud.

 

[FreeKaner]

It is really unfortunate how feast or famine offensive spell casting is because of spell resistance mechanic and how liberally it is used by Owlcat. It makes hybrid casters very unsatisfying even when they should be good in certain paths (like Demon which gives a lot of DC, save rerolls while also boosting your melee capabilities) because at the end of day you are either passing the spell resistance or you don't. Not saying that a hybrid should be as effective as a full caster but they could get something out of it if they invest, there are a lot of spells that do half-effect or reduced effect even on a save after all. Right now you either invest enough and you can pass the check or you don't and all that investment was for nothing and you were better off casting buffs.

If you want to bypass it you have the tools. All about trade-offs. You can also use Conj spells (and a few others - Angel spells notably) that already bypass it. There's a short span in the game where you can't beat all the SR but you can use Piercing Meta/Rods for that if you want.

I usually go all-in on Spell Pen for Nenio for her Illusion spells and use some Conj spells until that comes online. Hybrids aren't supposed to be able to own the toughest foes with casting anyway. They've got enough for regular mobs, both DC and Spell Pen.

Are you really giving Nenio as an example against how hybrid offensive casting is bad? I mean Nenio is an offensive caster with a good archetype that already starts with illusion focus so you can go phantasmal killer/weird/shadow spells on her comfortably and beat most SR, if you get right items on her she can probably pass SR on basically just about anything on very low rolls. Saying Nenio with full penetration can bypass spell resistance is not really an argument against hybrid offensives being bad at it though is it? You delay your spell progression / caster levels even a bit and you are significantly set back. That is not even getting to the fact you would probably being filtered on rolls against saves already, which should have been the trade off in the first place.

My point rather is exactly that it is not about trade-offs at all. Unless your trade off is you trade off something for nothing. You trade off a bit of spell levels / caster levels and you are simply not going to pass SR because you got +7 at level 10 (caster level 5 with spellpen, casting level 3 spells so also lower on DR) vs. having +12 (caster level 10 with spellpen, higher on DR because higher skill level, higher caster level), that is 40% chance to pass the SR vs. 15% chance to pass it against common 24 SR for example, it is a huge difference even if not passing the saves would be okay after passing the SR and even worse if you want to pass it (since half-effects and reduced effets exists). A full caster can cast phantasmal killer, comfortably beat the SR with a medium roll, then have a good chance against the saves because of higher base stat, more feats spent on spell focus and what not, while a hybrid has to bypass a 15% chance to maybe have another 15% chance to beat the saves, that is just not a good way to play the game unless you want to reload until you get 2-3 high rolls in a row.

If SR wasn't at such a level that basically meant you had to roll your caster level against enemies, as a hybrid with lower main casting stat and lower level spells you could at least hope to get off half-effects and reduced effects on offensive spells, while very rarely getting full effects if ever. Which would be a decent trade off.

No, I'm saying that she's the one where it's worth investing in the Feats and items to bypass SR. Hybrids can do the same thing if you invest the same Feats and Items (but there are only so many to go around). And if you're rolling that low you're looking at a narrow span of a couple levels and applying it to the whole game.

What's the point of pure casters if hybrids can do everything they can do? Seriously the nerftards are out of control.

Hybrids get full CL, what are you talking about? Take the dip pay the price sucka. That's... the trade-off. No, I don't want a game where Rangers can save-or-die optional bosses thx.

What would be the point of pure casters? Passing saves because of high DC on spells. It would still function similarly because hybrids have to spread around their stats, feats, dips/levels. So offensives would only really manage to cast on very low saves based on target or just cast for the half-effects or reduced effects (chain lightning etc.) It would still be inferior mind you because you would be still investing and not really passing saves most of the time (because again, lower base stats and feats means you are not getting to Nenio with triple spell focus oneshotting optional bosses on save-or-die on hybrids) as opposed to just memorizing/taking buffs and just attacking things (which is way easier to build) but rather it would be an option.

Hybrids can't really do the same thing while investing feats is exactly my point. You invest feats to get back to square one because you are compensating for lack of caster levels. Really don't see how say a wizard going EK with a single dip in fighter plus one more dip in martial for example being so penalized against SR is a good thing, it being primarily based on caster levels is just so punishing even when you expend all the feats to get back up. Because the difference between as low as 3 caster levels (so not even losing any spell levels, only delaying them) is difference between getting off your spells half the time vs. not getting them off most of the time (which you won't beat the saves on most of the time if ever). You also get penalized on your attacks too for doing that.

 

[FreeKaner]

You also save-or-die with your AC against a 250-300 damage attack crit, and on a 16-20 threat range that can be much more likely to happen than failing three checks on a save-or-die since it is one check vs. three unless you beat all the checks on a nat1.

 

[LannTheStupid]

In fact, much as I love the mods for the game, I've been tripped up a few times by updates screwing with abandonware mods making me lose hours of playtime (one of them getting quite close to the end of the game), that next time I get a hankering for the game (which I think I've got one more run in me in the not too distant future) I'm thinking of stripping the mods back entirely to just QOL,

It's almost like I have never written that the first step in any trouble shooting should be clean reinstall without any mods and even mod managers.

Who would have thought, huh.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Fight’s a lot harder without the Pillars. I’m not skipping Defense anymore anyway since I want that Amulet from the Nabasu.

Killing that Nabasu feels like that hidden area in Guild Wars where you can fight lvl 8 dudes pre-Searing.

Have you ever managed to do it on hard and above without scrolls of Freedom of Movement?

I saw it done on Unfair with smart kiting, but I cannot pull it off.

 

[Rhobar121]

What about mid-game, where most of the game happens, though? I guess Soulshear is serviceable, but... really feels weak next to a generic fauchard, not to mention Grave Singer or Wide Sweep if you don't care about reach much.

Imho, Glaive is bad weapon for professional melees, especially MC, but pretty solid for support-focused builds who can't really afford some parts of Improved Crit/Shatter/Outflank package.
Currently, I take Guided Hand (feat, STR > WIS for attack bonus on deity's favored weapon) from some mod on Sosiel and he is more than competent with Soulshear, if the sheer number of demons he spawns with it is something to judge him by.

Um, why not just buff his STR instead? Lol and use Enlarge effects? He *really* doesn't have room for Guided Hand when he can barely afford Outflank. (Mythic) Evo Focus for Archon's is a higher priority.

Glad you're finally admitting that he can be an offensive force. And yes it was the demon spawns that give it away. Can't believe the endgame theorycrafters are taking a Feat that gets completely obsoleted by Frightful Aspect.

Wasting mythic feats for one spell is a bad idea, especially with Sosiel. He has enough better choices.
Without spell penetration the other evocation spells will be useless and you still need an outflank early on.
If you want to invest in an evocation for Archon's Aura, it's better to do it on Daeran.

 

[Desiderius]

You also save-or-die with your AC against a 250-300 damage attack crit, and on a 16-20 threat range that can be much more likely to happen than failing three checks on a save-or-die since it is one check vs. three unless you beat all the checks on a nat1.

Yes, that’s what a Martial is for. Also costs several feats and supporting abilities to do. Same with Spell Pen/DC. If you want to do that it costs different ones. That’s the trade-off.

 

[Desiderius]

What about mid-game, where most of the game happens, though? I guess Soulshear is serviceable, but... really feels weak next to a generic fauchard, not to mention Grave Singer or Wide Sweep if you don't care about reach much.

Imho, Glaive is bad weapon for professional melees, especially MC, but pretty solid for support-focused builds who can't really afford some parts of Improved Crit/Shatter/Outflank package.
Currently, I take Guided Hand (feat, STR > WIS for attack bonus on deity's favored weapon) from some mod on Sosiel and he is more than competent with Soulshear, if the sheer number of demons he spawns with it is something to judge him by.

Um, why not just buff his STR instead? Lol and use Enlarge effects? He *really* doesn't have room for Guided Hand when he can barely afford Outflank. (Mythic) Evo Focus for Archon's is a higher priority.

Glad you're finally admitting that he can be an offensive force. And yes it was the demon spawns that give it away. Can't believe the endgame theorycrafters are taking a Feat that gets completely obsoleted by Frightful Aspect.

Wasting mythic feats for one spell is a bad idea, especially with Sosiel. He has enough better choices.
Without spell penetration the other evocation spells will be useless and you still need an outflank early on.
If you want to invest in an evocation for Archon's Aura, it's better to do it on Daeran.

Lost in abstraction again.

(a) depends on the spell, and how much difference the 4 DC makes (literally every single mob you fight will have to pass it). There’s no other spell like it. THE biggest reason to bring a Divine Caster (as opposed to Inq/Shaman).

(b) Not every threat you need to take out even has SR. Notably Zach doesn’t.

(c) Mythic evo focus gets better the later in the game, and by then you can get enough Spell Pen as well.

(d) Respec with Spell Pen in place of Extra Channel/Toughness and Piercing Rod if you want to cast spells thru SR (like Prayer) early. O/W you can still get there by lvl 13 (or 11 if you burn a Mythic on a Feat)

(e) Oracle is no better (or worse) than Cleric, just slower Spell Progression.

Fight’s a lot harder without the Pillars. I’m not skipping Defense anymore anyway since I want that Amulet from the Nabasu.

Killing that Nabasu feels like that hidden area in Guild Wars where you can fight lvl 8 dudes pre-Searing.

Have you ever managed to do it on hard and above without scrolls of Freedom of Movement?

I saw it done on Unfair with smart kiting, but I cannot pull it off.

Interrupted the cast in RTwP on Hard. Skipped it on Unfair. If I had to go it Unfair I’d let a Summon eat the Gaze/Hold. There’s also a little peninsula on the other side you could probably turtle in.

 

[Desiderius]

It is really unfortunate how feast or famine offensive spell casting is because of spell resistance mechanic and how liberally it is used by Owlcat. It makes hybrid casters very unsatisfying even when they should be good in certain paths (like Demon which gives a lot of DC, save rerolls while also boosting your melee capabilities) because at the end of day you are either passing the spell resistance or you don't. Not saying that a hybrid should be as effective as a full caster but they could get something out of it if they invest, there are a lot of spells that do half-effect or reduced effect even on a save after all. Right now you either invest enough and you can pass the check or you don't and all that investment was for nothing and you were better off casting buffs.

If you want to bypass it you have the tools. All about trade-offs. You can also use Conj spells (and a few others - Angel spells notably) that already bypass it. There's a short span in the game where you can't beat all the SR but you can use Piercing Meta/Rods for that if you want.

I usually go all-in on Spell Pen for Nenio for her Illusion spells and use some Conj spells until that comes online. Hybrids aren't supposed to be able to own the toughest foes with casting anyway. They've got enough for regular mobs, both DC and Spell Pen.

Are you really giving Nenio as an example against how hybrid offensive casting is bad? I mean Nenio is an offensive caster with a good archetype that already starts with illusion focus so you can go phantasmal killer/weird/shadow spells on her comfortably and beat most SR, if you get right items on her she can probably pass SR on basically just about anything on very low rolls. Saying Nenio with full penetration can bypass spell resistance is not really an argument against hybrid offensives being bad at it though is it? You delay your spell progression / caster levels even a bit and you are significantly set back. That is not even getting to the fact you would probably being filtered on rolls against saves already, which should have been the trade off in the first place.

My point rather is exactly that it is not about trade-offs at all. Unless your trade off is you trade off something for nothing. You trade off a bit of spell levels / caster levels and you are simply not going to pass SR because you got +7 at level 10 (caster level 5 with spellpen, casting level 3 spells so also lower on DR) vs. having +12 (caster level 10 with spellpen, higher on DR because higher skill level, higher caster level), that is 40% chance to pass the SR vs. 15% chance to pass it against common 24 SR for example, it is a huge difference even if not passing the saves would be okay after passing the SR and even worse if you want to pass it (since half-effects and reduced effets exists). A full caster can cast phantasmal killer, comfortably beat the SR with a medium roll, then have a good chance against the saves because of higher base stat, more feats spent on spell focus and what not, while a hybrid has to bypass a 15% chance to maybe have another 15% chance to beat the saves, that is just not a good way to play the game unless you want to reload until you get 2-3 high rolls in a row.

If SR wasn't at such a level that basically meant you had to roll your caster level against enemies, as a hybrid with lower main casting stat and lower level spells you could at least hope to get off half-effects and reduced effects on offensive spells, while very rarely getting full effects if ever. Which would be a decent trade off.

No, I'm saying that she's the one where it's worth investing in the Feats and items to bypass SR. Hybrids can do the same thing if you invest the same Feats and Items (but there are only so many to go around). And if you're rolling that low you're looking at a narrow span of a couple levels and applying it to the whole game.

What's the point of pure casters if hybrids can do everything they can do? Seriously the nerftards are out of control.

Hybrids get full CL, what are you talking about? Take the dip pay the price sucka. That's... the trade-off. No, I don't want a game where Rangers can save-or-die optional bosses thx.

What would be the point of pure casters? Passing saves because of high DC on spells. It would still function similarly because hybrids have to spread around their stats, feats, dips/levels. So offensives would only really manage to cast on very low saves based on target or just cast for the half-effects or reduced effects (chain lightning etc.) It would still be inferior mind you because you would be still investing and not really passing saves most of the time (because again, lower base stats and feats means you are not getting to Nenio with triple spell focus oneshotting optional bosses on save-or-die on hybrids) as opposed to just memorizing/taking buffs and just attacking things (which is way easier to build) but rather it would be an option.

Hybrids can't really do the same thing while investing feats is exactly my point. You invest feats to get back to square one because you are compensating for lack of caster levels. Really don't see how say a wizard going EK with a single dip in fighter plus one more dip in martial for example being so penalized against SR is a good thing, it being primarily based on caster levels is just so punishing even when you expend all the feats to get back up. Because the difference between as low as 3 caster levels (so not even losing any spell levels, only delaying them) is difference between getting off your spells half the time vs. not getting them off most of the time (which you won't beat the saves on most of the time if ever). You also get penalized on your attacks too for doing that.

What lack of caster levels? If you’re talking about Paladin/Ranger you should be attacking. Dips suck for casters. If you want a hybrid caster play a class designed for it. It’s doable, especially on MC.

BTW, Shadow Conjuration (TTT makes Shadow Spells use Illusion DC, but still gets by SR, I think) on Nenio can be kind of sick.

I've given EK a lot of shit and still think it's boring but I've still done it on Octavia and done it on Nenio (to use Bite and Vulpine Pounce). It's fine. But if it's as good as a full caster at beating DCs and Spell Pen then what's the point? It isn't. If you want to cast against (all) the toughest opponents why go EK in the first place?

 

[LannTheStupid]

(b) Not every threat you need to take out even has SR. Notably Zach doesn’t.

That's the problem with the "tunnel vision" you are always referring to.

Most of the Gargoyles are not demons, and, thus, susceptible to poison.

The Ancient Sarkorian Ghost does not have SR. Does not have Shield. And Force spells, like Magic Missile, do full damage to ghosts without saves. And Ghost Touch weapons make sneak attacks against ghosts who are otherwise immune to precision damage.

In the Gray Garrison one mini-boss is a demon, but all of his minions are humans; another is surrounded by lesser demons, but her herself is a human. And another mini-boss is one lonely Minotaur.

Preconception is harmful for good decisions.

 

[Desiderius]

Jeslyn not only has no SR, she doesn't even have Fire Resistance (might even be vulnerable, can't remember). Alchemist likewise has no SR and very low Will.

Holy Sword scroll bypasses final Mino DR10/Good.

Gargs have some SR but Stinking Cloud bypasses. Snowballs bypass SR and target touch for Clerics.



And they get sneaks (from Vitals for instance). High DC is Shadow Conjuration (good with Grease too!). Lann Drovier taking full advantage of Zach's lack of SR to use Faerie Fire to cancel Blur/Displacement (not sure if Faerie Fire is affected by SR in any case). Zach had bad initiative roll so didn't end up mattering.

Maxxed (from Rod in adjoining room) Searing Touch also a good one. That's no Save.

 

[Desiderius]

Does anyone know if this flat-footed from being outnumbered is a thing in-game?



The reward from killing Nabasu. Very good on a Smilo. Or can just sell it for good coin.



Great job Owlcat. Just outstanding. Did the coder think "whoa, a ten point bonus, that's enough better reduce this 14 CHR the designers gave me"?



One of the Nenio boss dialogues I was talking about. Numeria = America

 

[rojay]

View attachment 30573

Does anyone know if this flat-footed from being outnumbered is a thing in-game?

View attachment 30574

The reward from killing Nabasu. Very good on a Smilo. Or can just sell it for good coin.

View attachment 30575

Great job Owlcat. Just outstanding. Did the coder think "whoa, a ten point bonus, that's enough better reduce this 14 CHR the designers gave me"?

View attachment 30576View attachment 30577

One of the Nenio boss dialogues I was talking about. Numeria = America

Sounds more like they're commenting on Russia.

 

[FreeKaner]

You also save-or-die with your AC against a 250-300 damage attack crit, and on a 16-20 threat range that can be much more likely to happen than failing three checks on a save-or-die since it is one check vs. three unless you beat all the checks on a nat1.

Yes, that’s what a Martial is for. Also costs several feats and supporting abilities to do. Same with Spell Pen/DC. If you want to do that it costs different ones. That’s the trade-off.

That's my point though, there is no trade off. You are either a martial or you are an offensive caster, there is no in-between where you can sacrifice some of it for other. You can definitely trade-off some martial abilities for buffs, support abilities and what not (which is a good trade off) but there is no trade off with being a very good offensive caster and a passing one, despite existence of a lot of spells that do things even on save would imply since you have to first pass SR. Which you would have to trade off anyway most likely on buffs, support abilities, feats etc. anyway. As it stands there are really no hybrid offensive casters even EK and even as demon. Demon EK gets closest even if it plays with minus -2 CL even with just 1 fighter dip but you still have to either prio STR or INT (eg 16 str 19 int vs 19 str 16 int, former makes for a poor martial and latter for a poor offensive caster, latter is better generally again as a buffer hybrid) at character creation.

 

[Desiderius]

You also save-or-die with your AC against a 250-300 damage attack crit, and on a 16-20 threat range that can be much more likely to happen than failing three checks on a save-or-die since it is one check vs. three unless you beat all the checks on a nat1.

Yes, that’s what a Martial is for. Also costs several feats and supporting abilities to do. Same with Spell Pen/DC. If you want to do that it costs different ones. That’s the trade-off.

That's my point though, there is no trade off. You are either a martial or you are an offensive caster, there is no in-between where you can sacrifice some of it for other. You can definitely trade-off some martial abilities for buffs, support abilities and what not (which is a good trade off) but there is no trade off with being a very good offensive caster and a passing one, despite existence of a lot of spells that do things even on save would imply since you have to first pass SR. Which you would have to trade off anyway most likely on buffs, support abilities, feats etc. anyway. As it stands there are really no hybrid offensive casters even EK and even as demon. Demon EK gets closest even if it plays with minus -2 CL even with just 1 fighter dip but you still have to either prio STR or INT (eg 16 str 19 int vs 19 str 16 int, former makes for a poor martial and latter for a poor offensive caster, latter is better generally again as a buffer hybrid) at character creation.

That's not close to the case. I've already explained that you can either take the two Feats right away (along with the Relic and Robe it's enough other than a couple bosses) or wait until the items and abilities start coming in to boost Spell Pen and use spells that bypass it (Grease/Pits/Snowballs/Web/Cloud) until then or just use spells against foes that don't have high SR and use other abilities like Hexes or attacking against things that do. You can also get Piercing Rods in modded or use Piercing meta.

You've got all kinds of hybrid classes that can do that - I've done it on Transmuter* ES with Wolj (and Darven's Hat) but Evo, Enchantment, and Illusion all have more item support to boost DCs. I don't get the fixation on EK. That's for attacking since it gets to the high level self-buffs. If you want to cast offensively play a class (hybrid or pure) that already sets up for that and lets you mix and match without sacrificing CL.

I did an Unfair run with Enchanter/Evo Azata Skald and owned. It's very doable as long as you're not expecting faceroll and can mix up your spells until midgame.

Give us some examples or what you're talking about because in general it sounds like you're playing a different game.

* - Obsidian Flow bypasses SR anyway, and a Swift Slow that hits half the foes is good value.

 

[Desiderius]

Fighting Stringy Demodand with Lawful Team

Playing ZA2/Drovier (Druid Archetype) on Lann mostly for the Smilo Pet and Speed Aura (helps here running back up the mountain at Lost Chapel, mostly to boost Move/Charge range on Seelah/Reg/Sos) but Rime Metamagic works well with Druid Snowballs and Lann's Perfect Strike to soften up the Stringy Demodand. Had some trouble with him last run and here the Lawl team handles him smoothly.



Not the best play here: should have delayed to let Sos apply Touch of Good or Luck Advantage. Reg has Swift Touch of Law but needed his Swift Action here for the Smite, and Power Attack should have been off to make sure first hit landed. Even with the errors 33 vs 39 is pretty good vs this lvl 20 boss.

In TTT Shatter Defenses uses PnP rules, so you have to hit things at full AC first to apply it. This strongly incentivizes taking the Mythic version you can see here on your highest AB character to benefit the rest of the team, which appreciates freeing up the Feats.



With his Defense Shattered they can then clean him up handily. Really helps out Ranged MC Spawn Slayer, though she has Shatter herself since just picked up Reg. May respec when Big Game Gloves kick in (Quarry is delayed on Slayer) since that will give team a round to get things set up.

One of the Nenio boss dialogues I was talking about. Numeria = America

Sounds more like they're commenting on Russia.

They've always had a lot in common. Used to produce a good bit of fellow feeling as well. Russia is only two syllables.

 

[Parabalus]

You also save-or-die with your AC against a 250-300 damage attack crit, and on a 16-20 threat range that can be much more likely to happen than failing three checks on a save-or-die since it is one check vs. three unless you beat all the checks on a nat1.

Yes, that’s what a Martial is for. Also costs several feats and supporting abilities to do. Same with Spell Pen/DC. If you want to do that it costs different ones. That’s the trade-off.

That's my point though, there is no trade off. You are either a martial or you are an offensive caster, there is no in-between where you can sacrifice some of it for other. You can definitely trade-off some martial abilities for buffs, support abilities and what not (which is a good trade off) but there is no trade off with being a very good offensive caster and a passing one, despite existence of a lot of spells that do things even on save would imply since you have to first pass SR. Which you would have to trade off anyway most likely on buffs, support abilities, feats etc. anyway. As it stands there are really no hybrid offensive casters even EK and even as demon. Demon EK gets closest even if it plays with minus -2 CL even with just 1 fighter dip but you still have to either prio STR or INT (eg 16 str 19 int vs 19 str 16 int, former makes for a poor martial and latter for a poor offensive caster, latter is better generally again as a buffer hybrid) at character creation.

Angel and Lich can nuke and fight, since most of the mythic spells bypass SR.

 

[FreeKaner]

That's not close to the case. I've already explained that you can either take the two Feats right away (along with the Relic and Robe it's enough other than a couple bosses) or wait until the items and abilities start coming in to boost Spell Pen and use spells that bypass it (Grease/Pits/Snowballs/Web/Cloud) until then or just use spells against foes that don't have high Spell Pen and use other abilities like Hexes or attacking against things that do. You can also get Piercing Rods in modded or use Piercing meta.

You've got all kinds of hybrid classes that can do that - I've done it on Transmuter* ES with Wolj (and Darven's Hat) but Evo, Enchantment, and Illusion all have more item support to boost DCs. I don't get the fixation on EK. That's for attacking since it gets to the high level self-buffs. If you want to cast offensively play a class (hybrid or pure) that already sets up for that and lets you mix and match without sacrificing CL.

I did an Unfair run with Enchanter/Evo Azata Skald and owned. It's very doable as long as you're not expecting faceroll and can mix up your spells until midgame.

Give us some examples or what you're talking about because in general it sounds like you're playing a different game.

* - Obsidian Flow bypasses SR anyway, and a Swift Slow that hits half the foes is good value.

EK wizard with two dips into martials, one fighter and one depends (but a full BAB one to get 4 attacks at level 20 probably). Big disadvantage to casting anything offensive by being an entire spell level and 2/3CL behind. I am trying to make this work in a way that it would be mostly a caster, sacrificing a bit of offensive casting to be able to frontline / attack at an acceptable but not excellent level, but you can't really sacrifice just a bit of offensive power, it is such a binary because of SR (except in abilities that do not check for SR).

I will make it work, probably by keeping the fighter side as lean as possible by only taking greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, shatter defenses and improved crits (so no cleave or power attack, only trying to get hits/crits in) and see how it goes.

Angel and Lich can nuke and fight, since most of the mythic spells bypass SR.

Agree, but I don't want to play either angel or lich with this one, angel I may play eventually as some divine caster gish but I would rather kill Zacharius.

 

[Desiderius]

But why? You’ve only got one standard action per turn. EK trying to cram two in there will just end up with them both being shitty. Figure out what you want to do primarily and get good at that.

 

[FreeKaner]

But why? You’ve only got one standard action per turn. EK trying to cram two in there will just end up with them both being shitty. Figure out what you want to do primarily and get good at that.

Swift action on crit for spells is the whole point of EK isn't it? But yes I agree the game works best when you choose what to do primarily and specialize.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I decided to persist with my sanctified slayer aeon run in hope of maybe finally beating the game, but, uh, it's just fucking broken, isn't it? Somewhere around Wintersun most enemies started aggresively targeting Ember (was not a thing at any point before), but apparently she is 100% immortal. She gets completely ganged on and verbally complains a little, but otherwise stays standing firm at permanent 0hp, tanking dozens upon dozens of spells, arrows and weapon hits like a total champ.

 

[Yosharian]

I decided to persist with my sanctified slayer aeon run in hope of maybe finally beating the game, but, uh, it's just fucking broken, isn't it? Somewhere around Wintersun most enemies started aggresively targeting Ember (was not a thing at any point before), but apparently she is 100% immortal. She gets completely ganged on and verbally complains a little, but otherwise stays standing firm at permanent 0hp, tanking dozens upon dozens of spells, arrows and weapon hits like a total champ.

Did you post this on Reddit? Saw a similar thing on there

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Posting on reddit, lel. Nope. Also, no mods and latest patch.

 

[Yosharian]

Posting on reddit, lel. Nope. Also, no mods and latest patch.

I see, yeah you are not the only person with this bug dude



https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/yvh1m4/immortal_ember/