Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Haplo]

But Transmutation also gets a Selective Spell at lvl 3 (Slow) which gets Quickened by Darven’s Hat and a very underrated SR-bypassing Obsidian Flow (Entangle, Difficult Terrain, and damage) at lvl 4 that turns on Fire Items if you don’t have a nuker. Touch of Gracelessness can also be a sneaky-good Standard Action and of course also gets Baleful and other good late spells.

Yeah, in my current game I rarely use other CC then Persistant Slow. I mean it doesn't land a lot, but its quite crippling for the enemies... without disabling their ability to make AoOs or see my MC

 

[Haplo]

Ember kinda takes a while to get going as a Enchanter. You very likely need at least one level in Loremaster to pick up Greater Command, which requires two Feats. Then you need 2 Spell Focus Feats and 2 Spell Pen ones. So she only fully comes online at level 15, unless you put more levels in Loremaster for extra Feats.

Spell Pen is a given, but Focus, while certainly helps, is not THAT urgently needed with all the item support Enchantment gets.
Bigger problem are enemies immune to Mind Affecting spells.

And yeah, the early availability of good Enchantment spells - which your proposed Loremaster dip could somewhat solve.
Although Hideous Laughter is supposed to be fixed by the last patch to work on Prone-immune enemies :D
So now Enchantment could be better then ever.

I wonder if the Best Jokes Mythic Ability is fixed...

 

[Lambach]

with all the item support Enchantment gets.

Which items are those? I only remember that Staff that gives a +2 DC to all Spells and those Gloves that give +2 DC specifically to Enchantment. What else is there?

 

[Haplo]

with all the item support Enchantment gets.

Which items are those? I only remember that Staff that gives a +2 DC to all Spells and those Gloves that give +2 DC specifically to Enchantment. What else is there?

There's also the fairly early Ring of Chaotic Fascination +2, and optionally, if you kill a certain NPC in Ac 4 - Bracers of Mind Break +2

 

[Yosharian]

with all the item support Enchantment gets.

Which items are those? I only remember that Staff that gives a +2 DC to all Spells and those Gloves that give +2 DC specifically to Enchantment. What else is there?

If only someone had a Steam page that listed every fucking item you need to use on such a build, and where those items can be found

Alas no such Steam page exists

 

[Haplo]

with all the item support Enchantment gets.

Which items are those? I only remember that Staff that gives a +2 DC to all Spells and those Gloves that give +2 DC specifically to Enchantment. What else is there?

If only someone had a Steam page that listed every fucking item you need to use on such a build

Alas no such Steam page exists

To be fair, not only Steam exists

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/guides/Unique_Items

 

[Yosharian]

Pffft =)

 

[Lambach]

if you kill a certain NPC in Ac 4 - Bracers of Mind Break +2

Hiding an item like this behind a choice that probably only dedicated murderhobos make because there's no indication whatsoever that killing her is useful or beneficial in any way.

Very interesting design choice there, Owlcat.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Fedora Master]

Good to see Owlscat quality at work.

 

[Desiderius]

Ember kinda takes a while to get going as a Enchanter. You very likely need at least one level in Loremaster to pick up Greater Command, which requires two Feats. Then you need 2 Spell Focus Feats and 2 Spell Pen ones. So she only fully comes online at level 15, unless you put more levels in Loremaster for extra Feats.

You’re making the game harder than it needs to be. Does LM advance her Hex progression (the strength of Witch is getting to Major/Grand)? Does she need the prereqs? Command not being Compulsion (lol) is a bug that TTT fixes. She gets Confusion at lvl 3 already.

 

[Desiderius]

Ember kinda takes a while to get going as a Enchanter. You very likely need at least one level in Loremaster to pick up Greater Command, which requires two Feats. Then you need 2 Spell Focus Feats and 2 Spell Pen ones. So she only fully comes online at level 15, unless you put more levels in Loremaster for extra Feats.

Spell Pen is a given, but Focus, while certainly helps, is not THAT urgently needed with all the item support Enchantment gets.
Bigger problem are enemies immune to Mind Affecting spells.

And yeah, the early availability of good Enchantment spells - which your proposed Loremaster dip could somewhat solve.
Although Hideous Laughter is supposed to be fixed by the last patch to work on Prone-immune enemies :D
So now Enchantment could be better then ever.

I wonder if the Best Jokes Mythic Ability is fixed...

The problem is that Spell Pen isn’t a given on the Character since Hexes and Conj spells bypass it. But if you want to go Enchant I guess. That’s more an MC Azata thing for me. It’s got enough Enchant spells then she can fill out the rest with key buffs/heals/hexes. She’s also got the burn package the Homebrew adds for mind-immune.

Some of the Enchantment boosters people are thinking of (like Amulet of Clarity) are Mind Affecting so also work on Illusion or just general DC boost like Staff of the War Mage. Staff of Coercion is spells that attack Will.

 

[Lambach]

You’re making the game harder than it needs to be. Does LM advance her Hex progression (the strength of Witch is getting to Major/Grand)?

No, but the thing is, I don't play on Story difficulty, so I'm never gonna beat the target's Save with Major or Grand Hexes anyway and they are ergo all worthless to me. All the actually useful Hexes like Evil Eye, Protective Luck, Fortune and Cackle can be picked up before hitting level 10 (where you pick up the first level in Loremaster) and after that there is very little reason to keep leveling her as a Witch.

 

[Desiderius]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

There’s a good bit of Evo/nuking stuff as well and Blightmaw has Enchant ring. Will Staff works for more than Illusion. Basically if you focus on any school you can get there but people don’t because they’re chasing memes instead of figuring out how.

Nah but Illusion/Mind-affecting is really - really shoved to you. Yeah there are also some Evocation stuff given but not to the extent of Illusion. And Nenio starting specializing as one is just a very shoved in build. She will still be effective in Unfair precisely because the whole game props her up (at least until the High Level expansion where all the enemies are immune to mind affecting). Power curve wise this makes her effective throughout the game instead of needing to reach mid/high level.

Evocation DC based companion build is not nearly as supported as her Illusion build is. The other non MC DC based casters are just way too RNG early. I mean sure you can build them and you can probably go to high level enough where they start to be effective as you have 5 other party members + animal companion(s), but it doesn't mean "Nenio Illusion" build is a good example of "building DC based caster for companion". Nenio Illusion is exception than the rule.

Illusion is fine and dandy, but as already has been said, its actually Enchantment that gets the most support by far.
Shouldn't be surprising, as Nenio might be Illusion focused, but Enchantment spells are one of the strong points on a Witch spell list - Ember can easily be made to specialize in them.

That makes sense but in the part of the game I’m most familiar with the gap isn’t that wide or even there yet (we’ll see how things play out). Divine Casters also get some Enchantments to use those items.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re making the game harder than it needs to be. Does LM advance her Hex progression (the strength of Witch is getting to Major/Grand)?

No, but the thing is, I don't play on Story difficulty, so I'm never gonna beat the target's Save with Major or Grand Hexes anyway and they are ergo all worthless to me. All the actually useful Hexes like Evil Eye, Protective Luck, Fortune and Cackle can be picked up before hitting level 10 (where you pick up the first level in Loremaster) and after that there is very little reason to keep leveling her as a Witch.

Stop making excuses for sucking so badly. Hex DCs scale with level and bypass the SR you were whining about yesterday. Agony is 60 ft range (!) and attacks weak save of most threats that are that far away (TTT fixes Poison miscoding). Delicious Fright doesn’t need a made save to apply Shaken. There’s the Bites for team one. At Grand is a Rez that doesn’t use Diamonds and Animal Servant IIRC. In any event scaling Hexes kick up to full power at class lvl 16 (-6 on Evil Eye).

Cramming the same spells into every class (or trying to spam low level spells) kills half the fun while making you worse unless it gives *the party* an irreplaceable effect. Command, Greater is not that.

Hexes are under-supported for a main Action Econ (for boss-level save-or-dies for instance), but that doesn’t mean they’re altogether useless. Especially the unique ones only Witch gets.

 

[Haplo]

Thing is, Delicious Fright might be nice.. but it has a pretty limited window of application, between level 10 when its first available and level 15/16 when Frightful Aspect comes online.

 

[Lambach]

Stop making excuses for sucking so badly. Hex DCs scale with level and bypass the SR you were whining about yesterday.

It scales with half her level, you retarded cocksucking obnoxious inbred faggot. A level 10 Ember will have about 22-23 DC on her Hexes. Against anything worth casting Hex on at that point in the game, on Hard, you're probably just gonna spend a Standard Action for nothing. Or I can cast one of the other Hexes that are guaranteed to work instead. Or another Spell that will do something at least.

Be honest, you never even tried this on Hard or Unfair, did you? You're just pulling stuff from your ass because you can't help being an insufferable cum-guzzler.

Delicious Fright doesn’t need a made save to apply Shaken.

Or I can use that round to cast Evil Eye for a -4 penalty instead of -2 from Shaken, you 30-IQ mental cripple. Did you not learn that 4 > 2 in pre-school?

Cramming the same spells into every class (or trying to spam low level spells) kills half the fun while making you worse unless it gives *the party* an irreplaceable effect.

Oh yeah, an irreplacable effect. Like one extra shitty Natural Attack with a penalty at the point in the game where Regill has 8 ApR with Haste. Wow, so much better than AoE hard-CC, mongoloid. That's some Action Economy for ya.

Hexes are under-supported for a main Action Econ (for boss-level save-or-dies for instance), but that doesn’t mean they’re altogether useless.

Yes, it does mean that Major and Grand Hexes are altogether useless because there's always something else you can do during a given Round that will be more beneficial than using one of those. Fuck off with your autistic theorycrafting that's literally less optimal than just using the most basic, straightforward shit. You're not clever, you're not interesting, you're not special, you just sock miles and miles of hard cock.

 

[Desiderius]

Stop making excuses for sucking so badly. Hex DCs scale with level and bypass the SR you were whining about yesterday.

It scales with half her level, you retarded cocksucking obnoxious inbred faggot. A level 10 Ember will have about 22-23 DC on her Hexes. Against anything worth casting Hex on at that point in the game, on Hard, you're probably just gonna spend a Standard Action for nothing. Or I can cast one of the other Hexes that are guaranteed to work instead. Or another Spell that will do something at least.

Be honest, you never even tried this on Hard or Unfair, did you? You're just pulling stuff from your ass because you can't help being an insufferable cum-guzzler.

Delicious Fright doesn’t need a made save to apply Shaken.

Or I can use that round to cast Evil Eye for a -4 penalty instead of -2 from Shaken, you 30-IQ mental cripple. Did you not learn that 4 > 2 in pre-school?

Cramming the same spells into every class (or trying to spam low level spells) kills half the fun while making you worse unless it gives *the party* an irreplaceable effect.

Oh yeah, an irreplacable effect. Like one extra shitty Natural Attack with a penalty at the point in the game where Regill has 8 ApR with Haste. Wow, so much better than AoE hard-CC, mongoloid. That's some Action Economy for ya.

Hexes are under-supported for a main Action Econ (for boss-level save-or-dies for instance), but that doesn’t mean they’re altogether useless.

Yes, it does mean that Major and Grand Hexes are altogether useful because there's always something else you can do during a given Round that will be more beneficial than using one of those. Fucking off with your autistic theorycrafting that's literally less optimal than just using the most basic, straightforward shit. You're not clever, you're not interesting, you're not special, you just sock miles and miles of hard cock.

Alright, I'll keep posting screenshots blowing up your excuses* and you'll keep making them and beclowning yourself. It has been awhile since I've played Ember since Nenio is so good but next playthrough she'll be up for Chaos Demon run so we'll see. Here's what I found on Ember pics (looks like she was Enchanting after all):



Last one is Delicious Fright unlocking Vanilla Shatter so Sos can hit auto-hit hard target (back when I'd get Shatter on Soso ASAP). Student of Stone Aeon playthrough so probably also using to help Stunning Fist/Trips get there. Mind Fog (which Ember gets) is nice to unlock everything else if you can dodge the effect yourself (Aeon using Immunity, Ring from Regill quest, etc...). Seems like she's got plenty of DC to me (this is Core) but maybe I'll see what you're seeing when I get back there.

* - hopefully that can nip the memes in the bud though so everyone else can enjoy the damn game and hold up the nerf bus at least for awhile.

Thing is, Delicious Fright might be nice.. but it has a pretty limited window of application, between level 10 when its first available and level 15/16 when Frightful Aspect comes online.

Lol that's hardly limited, it's a major chunk of the game. Especially if you're relying on Daeran for Frightful. Getting bosses Shaken can be a major pain until then. Very low cost to solve that big of a problem since she gets new Hexes every two levels. As long as you don't blow her progression chasing spells she/the party doesn't need.

 

[Lambach]

View attachment 30691View attachment 30690View attachment 30689View attachment 30692

>Distorted Mythic Vrok
>+6 Will from Class Bonus



I did not realize Enhanced Edition came with a "Game Journalist" Difficulty option. Literally what the fuck is this shit, lmao. Mythic Vroks in my game rock something like +15 from Class alone.

No wonder you think everything is great and everything is viable, you're playing the "Press X to Win" version.

 

[Desiderius]

Against anything worth casting Hex on at that point in the game, on Hard, you're probably just gonna spend a Standard Action for nothing. Or I can cast one of the other Hexes that are guaranteed to work instead. Or another Spell that will do something at least.

Scaling with level means it goes up as you level, unlike, say Grease and Glitterdust if you don't blow a Feat on Heighten.

*Hexes autoheighten*

The other Hexes do different things. Disabling a caster 60 ft away is a pretty unique ability. When you need that you really need it. Casters don't tend to have high Fort and debuffing with Evil Eye isn't going to do much if you want to stop a cast (and Agony has twice the range). Fright turns on Shatter without needing an Intimidate check. Pretty good against, say, Darrazand or Devarra (and a lot of other bosses in between). It's not just one Bite, it's one for everyone including pets. Regill doesn't typically have a ton of Reach so you might want to bring some additional attackers.

 

[Desiderius]

One of us just posted a pic of Unfair Blightmaw failing a Reflex Save. It wasn't you, Lambach. People can tell.

Class bonus is unaffected by difficulty BTW. It scales by level and weakest save scales slowest. That Vrock could be 18th lvl and if that’s his weak save the class bonus will still be 6.

Mythic lvls may function differently.

If Nenio hit it with Putrefaction that shows up via (undocumented) Will reduction from lower WIS.

 

[Yosharian]

I keep my Shaman support pure but that's only because she literally does nothing else but Hex and heal, otherwise there is little point going past 16, the big hexes are quite disappointing IMO.

After Wind Ward I pretty much run out of hexes that I want

Really not interested in any DC-based hexes, no chance of making them work on the difficulties I play

My team is basically immortal with this build supporting them

Initially I wanted to make a hybrid support/damage dealer but I just couldn't be arsed with it in the end

L01 Spirit Hunter 1: Selective Channel (Note: have to select Life spirit first)
L02 Spirit Hunter 2: Hex: Protective Luck
L03 Spirit Hunter 3: Shield Proficiency
L04 Spirit Hunter 4: Hex: Evil Eye, Wandering Spirit: Wind
L05 Spirit Hunter 5: Shield Focus
L06 Spirit Hunter 6: Wandering Hex: Air Barrier
L07 Spirit Hunter 7: Missile Shield
L08 Spirit Hunter 8: Hex: Chant
L09 Spirit Hunter 9: Improved Initiative
L10 Spirit Hunter 10: Hex: Fortune
L11 Spirit Hunter 11: Skill Focus (Mobility)
L12 Spirit Hunter 12: Hex: Friend to the Animals
L13 Spirit Hunter 13: Mounted Combat
L14 Spirit Hunter 14: Second Wandering Hex: Wind Ward
L15 Spirit Hunter 15: Indomitable Mount
L16 Spirit Hunter 16: Secret: Metamagic (Extend), Animal Companion: Smilodon
L17 Spirit Hunter 17: Mounted Shield
L18 Spirit Hunter 18: Secret: Metamagic (Heighten)
L19 Spirit Hunter 19: Shake It Off
L20 Spirit Hunter 20: Hex: any

 

[Desiderius]

I keep my Shaman support pure but that's only because she literally does nothing else but Hex and heal, otherwise there is little point going past 16, the big hexes are quite disappointing IMO.

After Wind Ward I pretty much run out of hexes that I want

Really not interested in any DC-based hexes, no chance of making them work on the difficulties I play

My team is basically immortal with this build supporting them

Initially I wanted to make a hybrid support/damage dealer but I just couldn't be arsed with it in the end

L01 Spirit Hunter 1: Selective Channel (Note: have to select Life spirit first)
L02 Spirit Hunter 2: Hex: Protective Luck
L03 Spirit Hunter 3: Shield Proficiency
L04 Spirit Hunter 4: Hex: Evil Eye, Wandering Spirit: Wind
L05 Spirit Hunter 5: Shield Focus
L06 Spirit Hunter 6: Wandering Hex: Air Barrier
L07 Spirit Hunter 7: Missile Shield
L08 Spirit Hunter 8: Hex: Chant
L09 Spirit Hunter 9: Improved Initiative
L10 Spirit Hunter 10: Hex: Fortune
L11 Spirit Hunter 11: Skill Focus (Mobility)
L12 Spirit Hunter 12: Hex: Friend to the Animals
L13 Spirit Hunter 13: Mounted Combat
L14 Spirit Hunter 14: Second Wandering Hex: Wind Ward
L15 Spirit Hunter 15: Indomitable Mount
L16 Spirit Hunter 16: Secret: Metamagic (Extend), Animal Companion: Smilodon
L17 Spirit Hunter 17: Mounted Shield
L18 Spirit Hunter 18: Secret: Metamagic (Heighten)
L19 Spirit Hunter 19: Shake It Off
L20 Spirit Hunter 20: Hex: any

Shaman doesn’t get Major/Grand Hexes. Witch does. Thx for playing.

But yeah once you hit lvl 17 splashing for Command, Greater is an even worse idea. Splashing for Archon’s maybe. Plus non-pet.

I could see Hex-only being good with that set up if you want to Prot Luck tank/voltron. Chant Spam pre-combat is not WAI and trivializes the game which is I guess your thing.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I don't understand why someone cares about DC of hexes that work even on failed saves. And then, with Cackle, allow to apply other hexes over decreased DC.

Ember is very strong, but also very dead in my playthrough. Next time I will use her for the Lich.

P.S.: Also, it seems no one either cares or knows how to overcome the obligatory prompt when the game starts.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't understand why someone cares about DC of hexes that work even on failed saves. And then, with Cackle, allow to apply other hexes over decreased DC.

Ember is very strong, but also very dead in my playthrough. Next time I will use her for the Lich.

P.S.: Also, it seems no one either cares or knows how to overcome the obligatory prompt when the game starts.

I was talking about Agony Hex that has to beat save, and posted pic of Slumber which is same. Thing is Ember gets enough to pick some situational ones *if the situation is important enough and the ability addresses it* but people just look at things on an abstract level. Combine that with not knowing how to debuff and you get the meme that Hexes suck.

They don’t. You get so many *because* you’re supposed to use different ones to address different issues. I haven’t played Ember much since I like to use that slot for AoE control and that’s the one thing Hexes don’t do well (and Nenio is so good at it) but that doesn’t make Hexes bad.