Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

I don't even care how much damage my shaman does, she hexes the enemy and then my MC fucking destroys them with Jinx

 

[ga♥]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

 

[Yosharian]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

S k a l d

 

[Cyberarmy]

Skald is the best support class, fite me! (near my skald pls)

 

[ga♥]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

S k a l d

How much you get with a skald at lvl8? also we were talking about shaman vs cleric.

 

[Desiderius]

Wait wait wait.

Wait!

I have consulted the holy scriptures for guidance.

It's interesting that OC gives you a little hint by starting Seelah with Dodge and Shield Focus. My sense is that Crane Wing is WAI with Shield (they want to make actuals Shields worth using) so Dodge is there as prereq so you can get Style right away with Monk Splash then follow up with Wing. Shield Focus is to give hint for Tower Shield Proficiency once you pick up Weapon Bond to offset the malus and can buy +3 Tower after Garrison. Picking it up via Splash gives the Bonus Feat to make up for Wing and sets her up for TSS 3 to unlock higher DEX bonus later.

You're under-leveled *every level of the game*. Do the side by side comparison at each level and you'll see it. It's why people aren't doing the Monk and Vivi splashes anymore. The ruleset is literally designed around single-classing *especially* for redundant classes.

This is what you guys are missing. You literally play the whole game without your best ability if you do that. Some levels that's "just" an iterative (Hunter is a 3/4 class), which is half your attacks at lvl 6. 1/5 of the time that's an Order ability (for Cav), 1/10th of the time a Domain ability, 1/2 the time all your highest level spells (if you're a fast progression class), 1/5 of the time a Bloodline Power. It all adds up in addition to the scaling you lose.

d20 even goes out of its way to discourage duplicate multi-classing. It's that bad. And somehow you guys come up with "not missing any levels". As if!

Lord, I try to live by the true path as you espouse, but I'm so confused!

No one does the monk dips anymore... except you, apparently. But no one should multiclass because it's a massive self-own... but the perfect design shows that they're hinting you should... even though the ruleset is literally designed around single classing... but you should take a monk dip for crane wing... and maybe a TSS dip for tower shield prof. and bonuses... despite this being like THE campaign for a single classed paladin...

Is this a case where only the divine are capable of properly taking dips whereas everyone else should single class to avoid a "massive self own" or is this a case where using the language of "dips" is heretical while "splash" is the accepted nomenclature?

Your guidance is confusing, O Lord. Take pity on us hapless mortals with mere mortal intellect!

Some of us revise our takes when new data comes in, and some stick to sucking. That's all I've ever said.

In this case the splashes have a specific (and unique!) motivation behind them, I'll go into it because its interesting when I get the time.

Not all splashes equal.

 

[Desiderius]

Of course partially the issue is just how high stats you can get in this game too, getting secondary stats to AC isn't a big issue when highest stat is 22 (+6) and heavy armor gives you +10, it is a big issue when it is at 40 and you are getting +20 from it and best armor gives +14 and caps other scaling.

But STR-based gets (alot of) other benefits. Resources spent on getting DEX to 40 could go a lot of other places. Reg is fine but Seelah is eclipsing him largely because she can benefit from things like Legendary Proportions. As I keep saying, DEX-based can be a trap depending on what you're trying to do with it. Depending on how you're doing it STR-based tanking can take some work, but if you're hitting hard enough with that character you may not need to tank at all.

 

[FreeKaner]

I do agree you generally only need one tank and even that is circumstantially in some encounters but we are specifically talking about a character being able to deal with getting hit, where armor should be the logical choice but it isn't. I think DR is the best solution to this (and the game system already has it) so armor would be AC + DR while dodge would be just AC, meaning an avoidant character can just not get hit while a tank one can shrug off blows that hit (while getting hit more), but if it is a dragon clawing at you it is better to not get hit (which is fair & sensible) but the game didn't go that way. In fact again ironically most sources of DR are not armor.

 

[Yosharian]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

S k a l d

How much you get with a skald at lvl8? also we were talking about shaman vs cleric.

Level 8 Skald:

+2 AB (Inspired Rage)
+3 AB (Lethal Stance)
+3 AC (Beast Totem)
Immunity to Sickened/Nauseated
Enemy flat-footed to attacks via Dazzling + Shatter (CHA synergy makes this easy)

Guarded Hearth can go suck a fuck

 

[Desiderius]

How I ended up with Tank/Splash Seelah (after telling everybody not to do it for a year):

(1) In general enjoy looking for what designer was going for and trying to make it work, in any game. That goes for Paizo archetypes, Owlcat tweaks, and companion design in particular. Big theme of PF design (that I kind of reverse engineered before knowing it was there) is making single-class viable. Not optimal (there is no optimal, full stop - which is the main thing I'm fighting against the memes to establish) since optimal (not sucking, nobody likes to suck) depends on what role the character is playing within the team.

(2) I like to look at the unique strengths of each class and try to bring that out. Pal doesn't have any abilities that go with Mounted (and the abilities it does have don't go well with it) while Divine Weapon Bond is one of the best abilities in the game. On top of that Pal has some unique spells (even something as simple as Divine Favor) that incentivize taking Pal levels. MC Pal I'd almost certainly go Two-handed with enough AC to avoid adds but no tanking bosses. But have discovered that Bond + Favor + full BAB + Smite + items in this setting lets Pal eat some maluses and still hit. Question is which maluses and for what.

(3) Seelah starts with Shield Focus and Dodge. Those make her even less suited for Mounted, but does bring (some) tanking into the picture. Anyone who's tried to tank with her on straight Pal knows that it's not nearly enough though even on Hard. This is the point where I start to look at splashes, especially since Pal is so Feat-starved.

(4) I'm doing my first TB run in Wrath. I liked TB in CotW since it lets you get all your Swifts and Move Actions in, but it does change your tactical options since it doesn't let you zerg Charge or interrupt spells with damage. That makes tanking a lot better in TB, which gives you more time to debuff and disable instead of just rocket tagging. But giving the bad guys more time puts a bigger premium on playing defense, hence the need for a tank.

(5) There was still a significant downside. No Mark for Devarra made that fight significantly tougher, but not as much as I had feared since I had access to Swift Domain abilities from Good, Luck, and Law and Lann had big (enough) Snowballs. There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Missed Angelic, Greater at lvl 13 for sure (Knockdown on Charge Relic Ring in that slot at 14 has been interesting). No Archon's for Drezen, etc..

(6) Still haven't decided on Monk, since Lann is on the team, but he's ranged/mounted so may get some melee exclusive Monk items. Already having Dodge is big incentive. OC making Wing work with Shield to make Shields better (something I like) is kind of clunky but I've come around to it so probably will. TTT turns it off by default but you can turn it back on.

(7) Wouldn't be doing any of this if I hadn't adjusted my strategy for TB and a team with strong debuffs. There are no no-brainers in this game, which is what makes it great.

 

[Desiderius]

armor should be the logical choice but it isn't

It is if you want to be STR-based, which comes with substantial benefits.

Doing it right now with AC DEX bonus of 1 (hoping eventually to get that higher, but don't need much).

+3 AB (Lethal Stance)

Go Reckless or go home.

 

[ga♥]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

S k a l d

How much you get with a skald at lvl8? also we were talking about shaman vs cleric.

Level 8 Skald:

+2 AB (Inspired Rage)
+3 AB (Lethal Stance)
+3 AC (Beast Totem)
Immunity to Sickened/Nauseated
Enemy flat-footed to attacks via Dazzling + Shatter (CHA synergy makes this easy)

And it prevents spellcasting, also it caps lower than what you tipically get with guarded heart. Which is +15/16 AB (and the same to saving throws).
You can get both I guess, but still I don't get why skald makes guarded heart overrated and a reason to get a shaman, huh?

 

[Yosharian]

Dudes, guarded earth in chapter 2 is a +5 AB (assuming a 20 WIS), and you reach lvl8 at the chapel, that's a lot, not overrated at all.

S k a l d

How much you get with a skald at lvl8? also we were talking about shaman vs cleric.

Level 8 Skald:

+2 AB (Inspired Rage)
+3 AB (Lethal Stance)
+3 AC (Beast Totem)
Immunity to Sickened/Nauseated
Enemy flat-footed to attacks via Dazzling + Shatter (CHA synergy makes this easy)

And it prevents spellcasting, also it caps lower than what you tipically get with guarded heart. Which is +15/16 AB (and the same to saving throws).
You can get both I guess, but still I don't get why skald makes guarded heart overrated and a reason to get a shaman, huh?

> And it prevents spellcasting

Oh no.

Anyway...

(Also, doesn't prevent it at 20th level)

> also it caps lower than what you tipically get with guarded heart.

+3 Inspired Rage
+2 Call to Violence
+2 Cloak of Blood Scent
+1 Demonic Resentment
+1 Clone Haste effect
+6 Lethal Stance
= 15

> and the same to saving throws

Granted, that is an advantage to GH.

> You can get both I guess

The whole point of Shaman + Skald + BFT is you tick all the boxes and your remaining spots can be taken up by proper martials that aren't fucking around trying to do multiple roles and failing miserably at it

Guarded Hearth and domains in general are overrated IMO

 

[ga♥]

> And it prevents spellcasting

Oh no.

Anyway...

(Also, doesn't prevent it at 20th level)

Yeah oh noes, especially if you want to hellfire ray or other rays.

> also it caps lower than what you tipically get with guarded heart.

+3 Inspired Rage
+2 Call to Violence
+2 Cloak of Blood Scent
+1 Demonic Resentment
+1 Clone Haste effect
+6 Lethal Stance
= 15

Clone haste what's that, is the bonus you get from the boots? But that's only for 1 guy, also Demonic resentment. And demonic resentment is a waste of a head slot.

> and the same to saving throws

Granted, that is an advantage to GH.

> You can get both I guess

The whole point of Shaman + Skald + BFT is you tick all the boxes and your remaining spots can be taken up by proper martials that aren't fucking around trying to do multiple roles and failing miserably at it

Imagine Skald + Cleric (a crusader).... woah shocking, I know.

Guarded Hearth and domains in general are overrated IMO

You can do without but overrated? No.

 

[Yosharian]

I just can't think of a situation where I need Hellfire Rays, but we'll see

Clone Haste is the effect that Skald 20 grants to the party, it's like Haste but it stacks with Haste

DR is not a waste of a head slot if the build doesn't require any other head slot item, I use it on one of my builds

Skald + Cleric - so the Cleric is taking the Shaman's slot? Or now I have one less real martial? Doesn't sound like an increase in effectiveness to me.

 

[ga♥]

Clone Haste is the effect that Skald 20 grants to the party, it's like Haste but it stacks with Haste

Informative. Does skald rage stack with rage/bloodrage?

DR is not a waste of a head slot if the build doesn't require any other head slot item, I use it on one of my builds

My last run I had a bloodrager and after a while I moved away from DR to something better. Anyway you agree its situational, depending on your team vs pretty much universal as GH is.

Skald + Cleric - so the Cleric is taking the Shaman's slot? Or now I have one less real martial? Doesn't sound like an increase in effectiveness to me.

What kind of shaman? Camellia or a merc, need more input.

 

[Desiderius]

Resentment is only a waste of a head slot if you’ve got a better alternative. By the time that shows up his BFT can give +6 stats (or Nenio can with Idealize Arcane Discovery modded).

+1 AB/dam etc is opposite of situational

Competes with Wind Keepers or Comradery AC. Gravekeepers gives AC vs Undead.

 

[Average Manatee]

And it prevents spellcasting

It's a free action to turn off accept rage, which doesn't just stop you from getting future rages but actually immediately dispels rage and re-enables spell casting, and you can turn it back on as soon as you are done spell casting to get the next rage tick. So it's literally just micro to avoid this downside.

 

[ga♥]

And it prevents spellcasting

It's a free action to turn off accept rage, which doesn't just stop you from getting future rages but actually immediately dispels rage and re-enables spell casting, and you can turn it back on as soon as you are done spell casting to get the next rage tick. So it's literally just micro to avoid this downside.

With rays you need AB you know?
GH doesn't disable anything.

 

[Desiderius]

Apples to Oranges

 

[Yosharian]

I agree that GH has more utility if you are playing a caster heavy party, but then why would you go Skald at all? It's obvious this conversation is in the context of martial heavy parties.

I am currently planning a caster heavy party and it's a bit of a headscratcher whether it's even worth bringing an AB booster like a Domain bot or a Court Poet (which I don't even consider to be a Skald) or a Bard

I think I would rather just bring another heavy caster? But I'm not sure yet, haven't decided

 

[Yosharian]

What kind of shaman? Camellia or a merc, need more input.

I use full respec builds. It's all on my Steam page

 

[Average Manatee]

And it prevents spellcasting

It's a free action to turn off accept rage, which doesn't just stop you from getting future rages but actually immediately dispels rage and re-enables spell casting, and you can turn it back on as soon as you are done spell casting to get the next rage tick. So it's literally just micro to avoid this downside.

With rays you need AB you know?
GH doesn't disable anything.

Wasn't aware that this discussion was based around making ray attacks (aka a bad party).

 

[Delterius]

ray attacks (aka a bad party).

do rays just not work on unfair or something? i found them busted on core

 

[ga♥]

ray attacks (aka a bad party).

do rays just not work on unfair or something? i found them busted on core

When you are a level 20 mythic troll, why do you need rays, when you can just troll, huh?