Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Yeah it is quite nice to be able to just fuck Undead automatically through their immunities

 

[Desiderius]

Ok, @GayHeart I can't tag you since you don't show up on the suggestion list, but here's your Unfair RTwP (man what a cluster with these Swifts and Moves) on hardest foe I've encountered yet:



Was trying to get a shot of Seelah tanking (would have had 72AC which would have been enough) but killed it too fast. Second try it just kept Dazzling and failing to Overrun and never attacked her. Pretty bizarre how high she can stack the maluses and still hit on Unfair without Skald or Hearth. The plan was to just crit fish with Bless Weapon and advantage but she hits plenty the hard way. Lann's Smilo was at 57 AB and MC at 61. Reg whiffed here at around 53 I think.



Frigid Touch applies auto-Stagger if you can hit Touch and get thru Spell Pen, which most Undead doesn't have.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah it is quite nice to be able to just fuck Undead automatically through their immunities

Most don't have SR so if you've got a good variety of spells there's usually something there to own them with.

 

[FreeKaner]

Ok, @GayHeart I can't tag you since you don't show up on the suggestion list, but here's your Unfair RTwP (man what a cluster with these Swifts and Moves) on hardest foe I've encountered yet:

View attachment 31367

Was trying to get a shot of Seelah tanking (would have had 72AC which would have been enough) but killed it too fast. Second try it just kept Dazzling and failing to Overrun and never attacked her. Pretty bizarre how high she can stack the maluses and still hit on Unfair without Skald or Hearth. The plan was to just crit fish with Bless Weapon and advantage but she hits plenty the hard way. Lann's Smilo was at 57 AB and MC at 61. Reg whiffed here at around 53 I think.

View attachment 31368

Frigid Touch applies auto-Stagger if you can hit Touch and get thru Spell Pen, which most Undead doesn't have.

Paladin bonuses to hit/damage are so strong in this setting, shame that armor doesn't get AC high enough without the tabletop tweaks adding the missing mythics. I will probably try and do an armored frontliner run if/when they add armor mythic feats with patch 2.1

 

[Desiderius]

Ok, @GayHeart I can't tag you since you don't show up on the suggestion list, but here's your Unfair RTwP (man what a cluster with these Swifts and Moves) on hardest foe I've encountered yet:

View attachment 31367

Was trying to get a shot of Seelah tanking (would have had 72AC which would have been enough) but killed it too fast. Second try it just kept Dazzling and failing to Overrun and never attacked her. Pretty bizarre how high she can stack the maluses and still hit on Unfair without Skald or Hearth. The plan was to just crit fish with Bless Weapon and advantage but she hits plenty the hard way. Lann's Smilo was at 57 AB and MC at 61. Reg whiffed here at around 53 I think.

View attachment 31368

Frigid Touch applies auto-Stagger if you can hit Touch and get thru Spell Pen, which most Undead doesn't have.

Paladin bonuses to hit/damage are so strong in this setting, shame that armor doesn't get AC high enough without the tabletop tweaks adding the missing mythics. I will probably try and do an armored frontliner run if/when they add armor mythic feats with patch 2.1

I'm not using the Mythics (yet?) here other than Not a Chance that turns off autohit on 20. That plus Abundant Casting, Mythic Evo (Archon's DC up to 27) and Mythic Spell Pen for the 27 DC Holy Whisper which is ok second round after saves are debuffed (also buffs Good characters so probably only really worth it with Good MC).

It's interesting that OC gives you a little hint by starting Seelah with Dodge and Shield Focus. My sense is that Crane Wing is WAI with Shield (they want to make actuals Shields worth using) so Dodge is there as prereq so you can get Style right away with Monk Splash then follow up with Wing. Shield Focus is to give hint for Tower Shield Proficiency once you pick up Weapon Bond to offset the malus and can buy +3 Tower after Garrison. Picking it up via Splash gives the Bonus Feat to make up for Wing and sets her up for TSS 3 to unlock higher DEX bonus later. Add in items like Protector of Life and/or Bracers of Rough Landing and she can get there by early midgame. Helps to have Reg for his Aura and Inspiring Command at 13 for Morale/Insight AC.

MC Pal would open up other options.

 

[FreeKaner]

Weren't you saying don't use crane just some time ago? Of course anyone with crane and monk dip is going to work, especially since Seelah is lawful & has high cha. Companions have really high point buys anyway, the crown for this of course goes to Arueshalae but she starts as 8 ranger which makes it more difficult to do a really abusive build with it.

Giving Seelah monk dip feels wrong so I wouldn't do it.

 

[Haplo]

Well, but giving her a mount doesn't feel wrong. And works very well.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Wait wait wait.

Wait!

I have consulted the holy scriptures for guidance.

It's interesting that OC gives you a little hint by starting Seelah with Dodge and Shield Focus. My sense is that Crane Wing is WAI with Shield (they want to make actuals Shields worth using) so Dodge is there as prereq so you can get Style right away with Monk Splash then follow up with Wing. Shield Focus is to give hint for Tower Shield Proficiency once you pick up Weapon Bond to offset the malus and can buy +3 Tower after Garrison. Picking it up via Splash gives the Bonus Feat to make up for Wing and sets her up for TSS 3 to unlock higher DEX bonus later.

You're under-leveled *every level of the game*. Do the side by side comparison at each level and you'll see it. It's why people aren't doing the Monk and Vivi splashes anymore. The ruleset is literally designed around single-classing *especially* for redundant classes.

This is what you guys are missing. You literally play the whole game without your best ability if you do that. Some levels that's "just" an iterative (Hunter is a 3/4 class), which is half your attacks at lvl 6. 1/5 of the time that's an Order ability (for Cav), 1/10th of the time a Domain ability, 1/2 the time all your highest level spells (if you're a fast progression class), 1/5 of the time a Bloodline Power. It all adds up in addition to the scaling you lose.

d20 even goes out of its way to discourage duplicate multi-classing. It's that bad. And somehow you guys come up with "not missing any levels". As if!

Lord, I try to live by the true path as you espouse, but I'm so confused!

No one does the monk dips anymore... except you, apparently. But no one should multiclass because it's a massive self-own... but the perfect design shows that they're hinting you should... even though the ruleset is literally designed around single classing... but you should take a monk dip for crane wing... and maybe a TSS dip for tower shield prof. and bonuses... despite this being like THE campaign for a single classed paladin...

Is this a case where only the divine are capable of properly taking dips whereas everyone else should single class to avoid a "massive self own" or is this a case where using the language of "dips" is heretical while "splash" is the accepted nomenclature?

Your guidance is confusing, O Lord. Take pity on us hapless mortals with mere mortal intellect!

 

[FreeKaner]

Well, but giving her a mount doesn't feel wrong. And works very well.

It is just the mount tanking then though, which they are very good at, I got regill inquisitor levels and his boar bulwark mount was at 56 AC very easily and I even got to equip armor on it. I just dislike Seelah as a companion. Also consider Camellia much better tank & utility.

I would definitely play an armored paladin MC though, when they add the mythic abilities/feats for armor AC scaling.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I would definitely play an armored paladin MC though, when they add the mythic abilities/feats for armor AC scaling.

This is what I hate about high level D&D since 3E. Armour becomes a trap, despite the art, setting, history of the game, etc. It sucks and it's retarded.

They should have some sort of offset to make higher level armour start dropping off the dex cap or something so that either being an armoured hulk is still preferable to running around naked, or at least comparable in some way.

It changes the game from being about e.g. knights and dragons and into being some sort of backflipping kung fu movie.

 

[Haplo]

Well, but giving her a mount doesn't feel wrong. And works very well.

It is just the mount tanking then though, which they are very good at, I got regill inquisitor levels and his boar bulwark mount was at 56 AC very easily and I even got to equip armor on it. I just dislike Seelah as a companion. Also consider Camellia much better tank & utility.

Eh, Camelia might be a better tank, but utility?
Seelah can Smite Evil/Mark of Justice, which can be a game-changer in tougher fights. Provides complete immunity to fear, party wide. Can ensure auto-confirmation of crits for everyone with Bless Weapon. Can also buff some of the traditional stuff: Crusader's Edge, Freedom, Death Ward. With her high Charsima, can also easily demoralize enemies with Dazzling/Dreadful/Cornugon to open Shatter and provide large party benefits with stuff like Order of the Lion For the King!

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the Shaman spellbook. Hexes are good, but IMO what Seelah brings to the table is better. Her damage output is also better post Elemental Barrage nerf.

 

[Delterius]

Eh, Camelia might be a better tank, but utility?
Seelah can Smite Evil/Mark of Justice

Seelah is the mvp in act 1 and 2 imo, solely due to smite evil. But that's not really utility, that's being the spearhead. Camellia can round out the divine caster buffs as a source of Remove Fear, Barkskin, Delay Poison and Protection from Energy. This is particularly good if you use Daeran. Bless weapon is great, but I think it's easier to relegate to scrolls than stuff like Barkskin, which I needed for most fights often enough. Eventually she can use Evil Eye as well as her easy rapier crits to fish for outflank strikes.

 

[FreeKaner]

I would definitely play an armored paladin MC though, when they add the mythic abilities/feats for armor AC scaling.

This is what I hate about high level D&D since 3E. Armour becomes a trap, despite the art, setting, history of the game, etc. It sucks and it's retarded.

They should have some sort of offset to make higher level armour start dropping off the dex cap or something so that either being an armoured hulk is still preferable to running around naked, or at least comparable in some way.

It changes the game from being about e.g. knights and dragons and into being some sort of backflipping kung fu movie.

Problem is dropping dex cap also just means dex characters tank better still. There are just more ways to scale AC with dex and absolutely no ways to scale AC on armor itself except itemization (which owlcat was bad at in Kingmaker and okay in Wrathfinder). Maybe they could add ways for AC to scale off STR or CON then it would work.

In all honesty I think none of the dex/wis/int/cha to AC should exist, which originally was meant so that there could be dodgy archetypes that are not so easy to hit without armor, rather they should be class features that just add non-scaling AC to other things with prerequisites like crane style. Despite its notoriety I think crane style is best designed non-armor AC bonus as it requires feat investment that only benefits defense and has prerequisites like using defensive style, having one hand empty and all else. That way a monk or duelist or whatever it is could keep up with armor with features.

Of course partially the issue is just how high stats you can get in this game too, getting secondary stats to AC isn't a big issue when highest stat is 22 (+6) and heavy armor gives you +10, it is a big issue when it is at 40 and you are getting +20 from it and best armor gives +14 and caps other scaling.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I would definitely play an armored paladin MC though, when they add the mythic abilities/feats for armor AC scaling.

This is what I hate about high level D&D since 3E. Armour becomes a trap, despite the art, setting, history of the game, etc. It sucks and it's retarded.

They should have some sort of offset to make higher level armour start dropping off the dex cap or something so that either being an armoured hulk is still preferable to running around naked, or at least comparable in some way.

It changes the game from being about e.g. knights and dragons and into being some sort of backflipping kung fu movie.

Problem is dropping dex cap also just means dex characters tank better still. There are just more ways to scale AC with dex and absolutely no ways to scale AC on armor itself except itemization (which owlcat was bad at in Kingmaker and okay in Wrathfinder). Maybe they could add ways for AC to scale off STR or CON then it would work.

In all honesty I think none of the dex/wis/int/cha to AC should exist, which originally was meant so that there could be dodgy archetypes no being so easy to hit without armor, rather they should be class features that just add non-scaling AC to other things with prerequisites, like crane style, despite its notoriety I think crane style is best designed non-armor AC bonus as it requires feat investment that only benefits defense and has prerequisites like using defensive style, having one hand empty and all else. That way a monk or duelist or whatever it is could keep up with armor with features.

Of course partially the issue is just how high stats you can get in this game too, getting secondary stats to AC isn't a big issue when highest stat is 22 (+6) and heavy armor gives you +10, it is a big issue when it is at 40 and you are getting +20 from it and best armor gives +14 and caps other scaling.

Yes, that's exactly it. Even if they simply capped off how much any stat (dex/wis/whatever) could contribute to AC, that'd pretty much resolve the entire issue. If some classes needed a top up to be viable (e.g. monks) just have a class feature that scales with class level and you'd be good to go.

Ah well.

 

[Yosharian]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

 

[Haplo]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

Not even close.

 

[Yosharian]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

Not even close.

Hexes? Divine support spells? Insane healing? What else do you need lol.

 

[Grunker]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

Not even close.

Hexes? Divine support spells? Insane healing? What else do you need lol.

A spellbook that’s not missing most of the vital support spells and access to busted mythic interactions with Domains?

 

[Yosharian]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

Not even close.

Hexes? Divine support spells? Insane healing? What else do you need lol.

A spellbook that’s not missing most of the vital support spells and access to busted mythic interactions with Domains?

Hexes.

 

[Yosharian]

Also: domains are fucking overrated.

Yeah I said it

 

[Grunker]

Shaman is the best support class in the game.

Not even close.

Hexes? Divine support spells? Insane healing? What else do you need lol.

A spellbook that’s not missing most of the vital support spells and access to busted mythic interactions with Domains?

Hexes.

Unfortunately I’m not at my PC or I would make the Aliens guy meme with your avatar as his head and the text “HEXES”

 

[Yosharian]

Oh no I'm missing Death Ward oh wait I have an item that gives it for free and later on I'll get it via my mythic spells

Oh no I'm missing Crusader's Edge wait why is everything dying so fast anyway

 

[Yosharian]

The virgin Cleric vs the chad Shaman

 

[FreeKaner]

Domains are very overrated indeed, it is more like compensation for having a useless party member. Camelia can be easily made into a killer damage dealer & tank with 50+ AC as early as end of act 2 while being a great outflank enabler with keen spirit enchantment while wielding rapier, having evil eye / dazzling display and also having all the necessary buffs like delay poison, barkskin, resist/protection from energy, heals, resurrects, owl's wisdom / bear's endurance and many more.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't even care how much damage my shaman does, she hexes the enemy and then my MC fucking destroys them with Jinx