Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Shifter is going to be complete shit.

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

In terms of encounteres, it's only picked up again for the boss fight, really. But then the thing was supposedly in parts designed by Cohhcarnage, Youtuber as a backer reward. Apart of that, is was fairly neat, change in scenery included.

It's frustrating, as the thing hinted at more early on. The environment actually being a factor in the tesla-ish coils, for a start. Enemies actually patrolling, as opposed to waiting behind the next door for you to pop up for probably the last 2,000 years. The fatigue kicked in after the first battle in the lava room already. Next room, basically the same thing all over. It never really went away until the boss.

For all the criticism Solasta's encounter design got here, this they got right: Even dedicated dungeon areas oft pack just 2 to 3 major fights -- and they try to make that count. But that's clearly not Owlcat, never been. Anyhow, back to the main dish.

 

[Desiderius]

Apparently they nerfed naturals stacking because their new shiny Shifter-toy would look a bit dumb if his feature of getting full iterative progression with natural attacks wouldn't a) look dumb as shit or b) be insanely OP if it also stacked with additional nats. Nothing official from Owlcat on it but it does make a lot of sense.

I read somewhere that Shifter will be the next DLC because it won a poll? Who the fuck would vote of Shifter over other much more awesome missing classes lol

Pets like Wolf already get iteratives with Natural Attacks. Don't know why you're taking such a derisive tone, stacking Bites were never as good as they looked without Bite Cloak. This frees up a lot of people from the ruts they were in to use Natural Attacks as they were designed in the ruleset (as long as Owlcat fixes the existing quirks and makes them work more like pet attacks, which is about a 50/50 proposition granted).

 

[Grunker]

Apparently they nerfed naturals stacking because their new shiny Shifter-toy would look a bit dumb if his feature of getting full iterative progression with natural attacks wouldn't a) look dumb as shit or b) be insanely OP if it also stacked with additional nats. Nothing official from Owlcat on it but it does make a lot of sense.

I read somewhere that Shifter will be the next DLC because it won a poll? Who the fuck would vote of Shifter over other much more awesome missing classes lol

Pets like Wolf already get iteratives with Natural Attacks.

Not sure what your point is here, has nothing to do with my post.

Don't know why you're taking such a derisive tone, stacking Bites were never as good as they looked without Bite Cloak.

Who said stacking bites was good? I've said stuff to the effect of "it's not even that good" in relation to it getting nerfed many times.

The derisive tone is partly because I'm annoyed that I can't play a mediocre build I found really fun anymore, and partly because I've been miffed about the decision to include the Shifter rather than a more exciting class ever since the announcement.

 

[Desiderius]

(1) If Daidre made it for you your build was far from mediocre.

(2) There are already several archetypes built around Natural Attacks that were seen as unplayable since:

(a) player Natural Attacks are buggy/missing features compared to pets'

(b) people got stuck in a rut with stacking secondary Bites instead (exacerbating the mutli-classing issue)

If they fix (a) then bringing (b) in line with the ruleset will get people out of that rut so they can enjoy the things those archetypes can uniquely do and the synergies they have with Mythic Paths (especially Demon). Introducing Shifter gives people an excuse to discover those instead of getting fixated on Bites getting "nerfed".

 

[Grunker]

(1) You: stacking bites isn't good

Also you: stacking bites is really good if Daidre does it

Stacking nat attacks can be decent - especially if you combine it with weapons so you benefit from iteratives - especially especially if you TWF so you actually capitalize on the huge amount of attacks you get.

However, that's exactly what I *didn't* do - I stuck to the theme of rip and tear and so was left with the two claw attacks instead of iteratives.

But good? Well, everything is relative, but if you want to melee in this game, there are far superior options to stacking natattacks.

(Fyi Daidre hardly "made my build", he helped with it - particularly with mythics. Bear in mind I did several thematic things with it Daidre probably wouldn't have done himself. One such clearly suboptimal choice is choosing abyssal bloodline which does almost nothing.)

(2) What does this have to do with my post

 

[mediocrepoet]

(1) You: stacking bites isn't good

Also you: stacking bites is really good if Daidre does it

It's 13/10 if Haplo does it.


I'm curious what the shifter implementation will be like. As I recall, the Pathfinder TT crowd thinks the class is shit, which is a shame because it represents an underserved class fantasy since druid's wild shape pretty much blows "off the rack". Hopefully it'll be viable so I can make a party of shifters and pet classes and roll around with a pack of wild dogs.

 

[Desiderius]

(1) You: stacking bites isn't good

Also you: stacking bites is really good if Daidre does it

Stacking nat attacks can be decent - especially if you combine it with weapons so you benefit from iteratives - especially especially if you TWF so you actually capitalize on the huge amount of attacks you get.

However, that's exactly what I *didn't* do - I stuck to the theme of rip and tear and so was left with the two claw attacks instead of iteratives.

But good? Well, everything is relative, but if you want to melee in this game, there are far superior options to stacking natattacks.

(Fyi Daidre hardly "made my build", he helped with it - particularly with mythics. Bear in mind I did several thematic things with it Daidre probably wouldn't have done himself. One such clearly suboptimal choice is choosing abyssal bloodline which does almost nothing.)

(2) What does this have to do with my post

Abyssal Bloodline is really good on the back-end. How many levels did you get in it?

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying - Shifter DLC will almost certainly fix the things that make those Claws relatively poor (although they can get there already with Claws Gloves etc depending, especially for classes/archetypes that don’t get many iteratives). If they’re upgraded to where pet attacks already are then with Mythic stuff added on they’ll be great. TWF is a different direction altogether.

Daidre knows what she’s doing. Multiclassing ends up nerfing people who don’t know what they’re doing. Daidre does.

 

[Daidre]

(a) player Natural Attacks are buggy/missing features compared to pets'

(b) people got stuck in a rut with stacking secondary Bites instead (exacerbating the mutli-classing issue)

(a) both player's and pet's Natural attacks were bugged in some way (or in many many ways) over the whole lifecycle of the game, on each particular version, and those bugs are not even consistent between versions. Over the lifecycle of both games even, since some builds for Kingmaker, like Haplo's guy with Mastery Fauchard and stacked bites and tripping cloak would be dead in the water if game's implementation was as RAW.

(b) That's just dumb. People who enjoy experimenting would go through ton of variants anyway (like druid or golden dragon shapeshifting) and will never blindly copy someone's else preplanned build on principle, and people who don't would probably go for something less contrived. In the end, nat attack stackers were very entertaining to play at low-mid levels where they were stably ahead of the curve with sheer #of attacks, but they were far from the top dogs compared to melee weapon users.

And even for people who like to experiment, desire to jump into the rabbit hole of multiclassing varies wildly from person to person, from build to build. I, for example, went for bloodrager/vivi/dragon disciple hybrid myself but I would not use wolf scarred face oracle because it started to give more than 1 bite at some point and went straight into my "I am not touching this bugged shit" pile. But at the same time, around 2/3 of my rogue-like's characters (over 100+) were single classed.

 

[Yosharian]

Permanent status effects Ageing, Middle Age, Old Age, Venerable Age, and Staggered weren't removed after the Flying Time Undertow stopped affecting the group – fixed;

This is still bugged. Just visited the first Island in Act 4, when I got off the boat the debuff is still visible in the icon list. The actual debuff doesn't seem to be affecting my guys, though.

Removed it using Toy Box. Everything seems fine now.

 

[Grunker]

Is there a good way for wizards to make targets immune to mind-affecting and/or illusions vulnerable to those effects?

 

[Yosharian]

I really. Really. Hate. The Midnight Isles DLC. Fucking horrendous shit.

 

[Yosharian]

Is there a good way for wizards to make targets immune to mind-affecting and/or illusions vulnerable to those effects?

Grandmaster Rod

 

[Desiderius]

(a) player Natural Attacks are buggy/missing features compared to pets'

(b) people got stuck in a rut with stacking secondary Bites instead (exacerbating the mutli-classing issue)

(a) both player's and pet's Natural attacks were bugged in some way (or in many many ways) over the whole lifecycle of the game, on each particular version, and those bugs are not even consistent between versions. Over the lifecycle of both games even, since some builds for Kingmaker, like Haplo's guy with Mastery Fauchard and stacked bites and tripping cloak would be dead in the water if game's implementation was as RAW.

(b) That's just dumb. People who enjoy experimenting would go through ton of variants anyway (like druid or golden dragon shapeshifting) and will never blindly copy someone's else preplanned build on principle, and people who don't would probably go for something less contrived. In the end, nat attack stackers were very entertaining to play at low-mid levels where they were stably ahead of the curve with sheer #of attacks, but they were far from the top dogs compared to melee weapon users.

And even for people who like to experiment, desire to jump into the rabbit hole of multiclassing varies wildly from person to person, from build to build. I, for example, went for bloodrager/vivi/dragon disciple hybrid myself but I would not use wolf scarred face oracle because it started to give more than 1 bite at some point and went straight into my "I am not touching this bugged shit" pile. But at the same time, around 2/3 of my rogue-like's characters (over 100+) were single classed.

Yes, that's what I was saying. If they fix Natural Attacks in general then they won't fall off late because the item support is largely already there and the various archetypes add things to keep them competitive as you level as long as you're not undermining that part with Bite splashes that rely on getting full attacks (which isn't trivial for melee) and without Bite Cloak (see Haplo's Tripping build from P:K) take a lot of work to make the Bites relevant. If they fix the bugs being a big if of course.

I'm not talking about people who love to experiment, I'm talking about people who play the Crusade for five minutes then start bitching about how much it sux because they heard P:K Kingdom Management sux. Same people stack Bites because they saw a video. And these days that's not even just casuals because it's a big time commitment to get up to speed so people rely on guides (I do too when replaying old games!) but the quality of the guides for newer games has degraded. Fixing Bite stacking resets that process.

 

[Delterius]

I love the midnight isles dlc. It gave me a cool trickster wand. I might have hated it without my infinite heals though.

I'm curious what the shifter implementation will be like. As I recall, the Pathfinder TT crowd thinks the class is shit

From what I read it's kinda meh in tabletop because the shifter bonuses are enhancement bonuses. Preliminary datamining shows that they are gonna be inherent in owlfinder. My concern is that certain archetypes won't be 'fully' implemented so to speak. Feyshifter for an instance would need a whole beastiary for the fey form spell. What I've seen instead is a feyshifter take that pretty much only entails turning into an Ankou and having sneak dice. Similar problems could arise with the other archetypes.

You guys can find dataminings on Reddit if you want.

 

[mediocrepoet]

You guys can find dataminings on Reddit if you want.

I prefer to wait until it's implemented rather than be "spoiled". Besides, this way, I can figure out what I think it means, notice that it's bugged 3 ways to Friday, and then come on here to lament.

 

[Grunker]

Anyone know the duration of Profane Hymn?

EDIT: Does this spell actually do anything at all?

 

[Yosharian]

Anyone know the duration of Profane Hymn?

EDIT: Does this spell actually do anything at all?

Um yes? What makes you think it doesn't?

 

[Desiderius]

Well this sux:



Aeon with advantage gets two rolls on Dispel Checks with Aeon Bane so thought I'd give Sosiel Dispel Focus to up his Dispel check to 19 since he usually has advantage up when I'd need it.

But he doesn't get two rolls on his Dispel checks. EDIT: stupidly had Touch of Law from Regill up (good on Spell Pen rolls), though that should give two rolls of 11? Only thing he Dispelled was the Entangle from Nenio's Icy Prison.



Reload for a different approach. This is Darrazand fight Unfair.



This time tank Seelah doesn't get initiative (despite having +17 initiative from bonuses and items) and math was off on Regill by 2 since he had Defensive Fighting and Power Attack on. He has Mythic Shatter (flat-footed for team) so that's kind of bad.

Note his Touch of Law giving him the roll of eleven which would have been enough if I weren't stupid.



MC Vanguard Aeon doesn't need no stinking Shatter. Note Darrazand failing the Fort Save on the Stagger Cloak. That ended up being big because Seelah was too late to tank. Vanguard used first turn applying Studied Target, Aeon Gaze, and Quarry with Big Game Gloves. Bismuth missed on attack so no Opportunist. Here activated Vanguard's Bond which left a Standard Action for an attack and Bismuth landed his so another from Opportunist.



Seelah's AC would have been enough if she'd have been there. Darrazand ended up clearing out summons on his first attack, then the Stagger (Entangle?) limited him to one on his second.



Not sure why I didn't cast the Persistent Putrefaction. Give him enough saves and he'll eventually fail one.



Sicken, Shatter, and Entangle (via Icy Prison) can all be applied with no Save. Looks like Seelah got a lucky roll on her Archon's. Picked up a third forced Archon's Save on MC at Aeon M5. Can see single Darrazand attack (due to Stagger) on Maralith that I think the party picked up from Sos killing High Priest with Soulshear.



Stone Golem getting in on the action. If Reg had gotten the Shatter established he would have done a lot of damage.



Reg getting it done this round. In TTT first hit is against full AC to Shatter the Defenses, then the subsequent ones are vs flat-footed (47 AC here). Can see the Entangle shaving 2 AC off in addition to the Archon's.



Drovier Lann has some decent Persistent Conj spells, but with spontaneous Summoning can just turn them into five Manticores to gum up the Maralith until MC finishes it off.

The Iomedae's Sword Sacred bonus is from a cool mod that adds Deity specific Feats. Seelah can use the Iomedae one that requires a Longsword, and allows you to use a Standard Action Attack which if it hits buffs team for a couple rounds. Vanguard's Bond kicking up to +2 finally is also a nice one.

 

[Grunker]

Anyone know the duration of Profane Hymn?

EDIT: Does this spell actually do anything at all?

Um yes? What makes you think it doesn't?

1. It doesn’t have a duration listed. No details can be found online. How long does it last?

2. I ran into the middle of a pack of mobs and cast it. None of them got debuffed.

 

[Yosharian]

Anyone know the duration of Profane Hymn?

EDIT: Does this spell actually do anything at all?

Um yes? What makes you think it doesn't?

1. It doesn’t have a duration listed. No details can be found online. How long does it last?

2. I ran into the middle of a pack of mobs and cast it. None of them got debuffed.

Hmm that's weird. I was testing my demon eldritch archer versus some enemies and i distinctly remember seeing the debuff icon, but i never actually checked to see if it was debuffing their stats

 

[Grunker]

Anyone know the duration of Profane Hymn?

EDIT: Does this spell actually do anything at all?

Um yes? What makes you think it doesn't?

1. It doesn’t have a duration listed. No details can be found online. How long does it last?

2. I ran into the middle of a pack of mobs and cast it. None of them got debuffed.

Hmm that's weird. I was testing my demon eldritch archer versus some enemies and i distinctly remember seeing the debuff icon, but i never actually checked to see if it was debuffing their stats

I'm not seeing any icon.

Grunker I dunno what Mythic rank you are yet, but do you have Toy Box installed? If so, could you get in a fight real quick with your Mythic rank increased to 9 and test out Aspect of Nocticula?

I want to know exactly what bonuses it gives to an ally because I tested it on an animal companion and it didn't give them ability score bonuses (like +STR for Vavakia) and I was wondering if that's because it bases the bonus off the target's mythic rank

Also I was seeing a Demonic Rage bonus of +1 which was weird since he had an Incubus bonus of +10

OK I did some limited testing for you and it seems to work exactly as it should - i.e. every effect that says "during a demonic rage" gets shared while stuff the passive stat bonuses don't get shared. For example, sharing Aspect of Coloxus allowed Camelia to cast spells as a Move Action.

You shouldn't get the stat bonuses from the aspect as far as I read the ability - it says "the benefits of your demonic rage." The stat bonuses aren't tied to demonic rage.

Her Demonic Rage bonus was correct (+4, like me), but I think what you saw might just be because the rage bonus itself is calculated off of the rager's mythic rank as you say.

 

[Grunker]

OK wtf lol. I am seeing a Profane Hymn icon on the initiative bar now, but not on monster sheets. So I can't determine Duration.

 

[Yosharian]

OK I did some limited testing for you and it seems to work exactly as it should - i.e. every effect that says "during a demonic rage" gets shared while stuff the passive stat bonuses don't get shared. For example, sharing Aspect of Coloxus allowed Camelia to cast spells as a Move Action.

You shouldn't get the stat bonuses from the aspect as far as I read the ability - it says "the benefits of your demonic rage." The stat bonuses aren't tied to demonic rage.

Her Demonic Rage bonus was correct (+4, like me), but I think what you saw might just be because the rage bonus itself is calculated off of the rager's mythic rank as you say.

Aww darnit. I was hoping that they would get the bonus to ability scores.

 

[Grunker]

OK I did some limited testing for you and it seems to work exactly as it should - i.e. every effect that says "during a demonic rage" gets shared while stuff the passive stat bonuses don't get shared. For example, sharing Aspect of Coloxus allowed Camelia to cast spells as a Move Action.

You shouldn't get the stat bonuses from the aspect as far as I read the ability - it says "the benefits of your demonic rage." The stat bonuses aren't tied to demonic rage.

Her Demonic Rage bonus was correct (+4, like me), but I think what you saw might just be because the rage bonus itself is calculated off of the rager's mythic rank as you say.

Aww darnit. I was hoping that they would get the bonus to ability scores.

If you get the chance I'd be curious if you could tell me what happens when you cast Profane Hymn.

I ended up going with a DC caster for my MC since I figured if I couldn't do nats, the other fun part of the demon mythic was casting spells as a move action. Currently my DCs are balanced rather than OP however, and I especially have trouble landing Ice Prison because even with Spell Focus I don't hit Evocation as hard *and* I don't hit Ref near as hard as Will and For, so Profane Hymn might come in handy sometimes, but I'm unsure if it even works.

Also, Bubble Buffs is skipping Mind Blank and GMW for some reason. By the way: whoever told me I would be fine without wizard buffs like Greater Invis because "most enemies have true seeing or equivalent" was smoking some heavy duty dope. All these buffs are amazing lol.