Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Apostle Hand]

is mutation warrior/hellknight good build?

 

[Yosharian]

Mutation Warrior/Anything is good

 

[Yosharian]

A lot of class choices depend on your Mythic path

 

[Apostle Hand]

So I must do some right thing to unlock hellknight at level 5? Fuck that.

 

[Yosharian]

So I must do some right thing to unlock hellknight at level 5? Fuck that.

What do you mean, 'some right thing'? You just need to put some points into a couple of skills, lol. Compared to some other PrCs, HK is a fucking breeze.

 

[Apostle Hand]

Ah, I misunderstood your post, sorry

 

[Average Manatee]

Mutation Warrior/Anything is good

Good to know. Mutation Warrior 10/Metamorph 10 LETS GO

 

[Yosharian]

Ah, I misunderstood your post, sorry

Ok I see the issue, no what I meant was that the meta concerning what classes you pick depends on your Mythic path.

For example, certain Divine classes are insanely good on the Angel path because of spellbook merging.

Basically if you want more info you need to decide on your Mythic path, otherwise all we can give you is generic build advice

 

[Yosharian]

For example if you go Demon there is a really powerful SS/MW build that exploits Demon's INT bonus

 

[mondblut]

Is it even an RPG anymore if heavy armor is decent? It needs to be either insanely overpowered or useless entirely, that's the law.

Being insanely overpowered is the whole point, otherwise why even bother? Nobody would stomp around with 40 pounds of metal on his back if prancing in pajamas would have been a viable alternative.

3ed killed armor when it introduced dex penalties.

 

[razvedchiki]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

 

[Average Manatee]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

 

[razvedchiki]

the fighter has the feats to burn, with slayer anyway i always take menacing for the shatter.

 

[Haplo]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

The other advantage of Slayer is the Dispelling Attack.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah DA is pretty sick. Probably second most powerful martial ability next to Dimension Strike/Prescient Attack.

DA is how Legend remains relevant compared to Mythic path powers IMO, CL40 dispel-on-hit wrecks.

 

[ga♥]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

Fake news.
Slayer > Mutation warrior for DPS because of sneak attacks.
Fighter get higher AB.

 

[Yosharian]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

Fake news.
Slayer > Mutation warrior for DPS because of sneak attacks.
Fighter get higher AB.

Ehhh Sneak Attacks are nice but don't scale as strongly as base damage in Wrath IMO

MW gets Weapon Training & Specialization, that's pretty strong. Of course, you could just dip MW 5 and go Slayer for the rest

 

[ga♥]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

Fake news.
Slayer > Mutation warrior for DPS because of sneak attacks.
Fighter get higher AB.

Ehhh Sneak Attacks are nice but don't scale as strongly as base damage in Wrath IMO

MW gets Weapon Training & Specialization, that's pretty strong. Of course, you could just dip MW 5 and go Slayer for the rest

beside mixing pure slayer does more dmg that pure mw. specialization is +2 dmg... seriously?

 

[Yosharian]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

Fake news.
Slayer > Mutation warrior for DPS because of sneak attacks.
Fighter get higher AB.

Ehhh Sneak Attacks are nice but don't scale as strongly as base damage in Wrath IMO

MW gets Weapon Training & Specialization, that's pretty strong. Of course, you could just dip MW 5 and go Slayer for the rest

beside mixing pure slayer does more dmg that pure mw. specialization is +2 dmg... seriously?

It's up to +7 damage, +9 if you get greater WS, because of Mythic weapon spec. Weapon Training is also +3 damage minimum. When you factor in weapon crits, these relatively small damage increases start to add up, big time, whereas Sneak Dice are only ever linear.

 

[ga♥]

for dual wield is mutation warrior or (spawn) slayer better dps wise? using trickster for the crit feats then legend or i will stay trickster.

Just as it is, Mutation Warrior, but the advantage of Slayer is that you get TWF for free without paying the feat or more importantly attribute score tax.

Fake news.
Slayer > Mutation warrior for DPS because of sneak attacks.
Fighter get higher AB.

Ehhh Sneak Attacks are nice but don't scale as strongly as base damage in Wrath IMO

MW gets Weapon Training & Specialization, that's pretty strong. Of course, you could just dip MW 5 and go Slayer for the rest

beside mixing pure slayer does more dmg that pure mw. specialization is +2 dmg... seriously?

It's up to +7 damage, +9 if you get greater WS, because of Mythic weapon spec. Weapon Training is also +3 damage minimum. When you factor in weapon crits, these relatively small damage increases start to add up, big time, whereas Sneak Dice are only ever linear.

At mythic 10, and spending 2 feats and mythic feat on top of that.

Versus 6d6 sneak dices on every hit, +5 from studied target, its obvious its more dmg unless niche scenarios, and without feat/mythic feats expenditures.

 

[Yosharian]

6D6 is only 21 damage and it's situational - you have to expose the target to Sneak Attacks, and they must not be immune to precision damage

Spending a mythic feat on it is basically not relevant

Anyway I never said Sneak dice are bad, I'm just saying base damage scales better

Which it clearly does

 

[Average Manatee]

Sneak damage also isn't guaranteed. Lots of enemies with outright immunity, or true seeing and you aren't riding a pet to threaten them on your first turn when you're making your initial attack. The more optimized you are the more likely you're taking down enemies in 1 or 2 rounds so you might be sneak attacking only half the time.

Also, don't forget your mutagens. Str bonuses also apply both to AB and to damage. Obviously it's not easy to generically calculate how much +1 AB adds compared to +1 damage, but I'd argue it's at least equivalent (outside of meme screenshots where you self-select the round where you roll all 20s).

 

[ga♥]

6D6 is only 21 damage and it's situational - you have to expose the target to Sneak Attacks, and they must not be immune to precision damage

Spending a mythic feat on it is basically not relevant

Anyway I never said Sneak dice are bad, I'm just saying base damage scales better

Which it clearly does

6d6 but is akshualy 8d6, (10d6 if deliverer) if you factor in 1 feat and another mythic then if everything is relevant.
But still 21 dmg is already superior?
As a slayer you get a 1d6 sneak dice every 3 level.
Now compare with what you call "base dmg" and you say scales better.
+2 dmg after level 5.
Another +2 at level 12.
And roughly every 4 levels starting at level 5 you get +1 dmg through weapon training.
And assuming you get a mythic weapon specialization, you will have +3 dmg at the start of chapter V, so basically for most of the game, to finally reach +5 for the last 20 mins.

Fighter:
+4 weapon specialization feats
+5 mythic specialization
+4 weapon training

Slayer:
+5 studied target
+28 sneak attacks (8d6)

Obviously with a crit you get more damage from a fighter but overall sneak damage is more consistent, and scales better since it increases every few levels by itself, so you will do more damage for most of the game with a slayer, which is my main point.

Beside usually the enemies that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to criticals, so your point that precision doesn't get multiplied is moot, and in the game is so easy to make enemies vulnerable to precision damage that it's harder to avoid it.

Sneak damage also isn't guaranteed. Lots of enemies with outright immunity, or true seeing and you aren't riding a pet to threaten them on your first turn when you're making your initial attack. The more optimized you are the more likely you're taking down enemies in 1 or 2 rounds so you might be sneak attacking only half the time.

Also, don't forget your mutagens. Str bonuses also apply both to AB and to damage. Obviously it's not easy to generically calculate how much +1 AB adds compared to +1 damage, but I'd argue it's at least equivalent (outside of meme screenshots where you self-select the round where you roll all 20s).

Enemies immune to sneak are usually immune to crits, but yeah as I said for most of the cases sneak is better, not all the time, hence slayer does more damage usually.
MW get more AB, I don't discuss it (especially because quarry is sadly insight so shouldn't stack with a lot of things), just talking about DPS.

 

[mediocrepoet]

6D6 is only 21 damage and it's situational - you have to expose the target to Sneak Attacks, and they must not be immune to precision damage

Spending a mythic feat on it is basically not relevant

Anyway I never said Sneak dice are bad, I'm just saying base damage scales better

Which it clearly does

6d6 but is akshualy 8d6, (10d6 if deliverer) if you factor in 1 feat and another mythic then if everything is relevant.
But still 21 dmg is already superior?
As a slayer you get a 1d6 sneak dice every 3 level.
Now compare with what you call "base dmg" and you say scales better.
+2 dmg after level 5.
Another +2 at level 12.
And roughly every 4 levels starting at level 5 you get +1 dmg through weapon training.
And assuming you get a mythic weapon specialization, you will have +3 dmg at the start of chapter V, so basically for most of the game, to finally reach +5 for the last 20 mins.

Fighter:
+4 weapon specialization feats
+5 mythic specialization
+4 weapon training

Slayer:
+5 studied target
+28 sneak attacks (8d6)

Obviously with a crit you get more damage from a fighter but overall sneak damage is more consistent, and scales better since it increases every few levels by itself, so you will do more damage for most of the game with a slayer, which is my main point.

Beside usually the enemies that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to criticals, so your point that precision doesn't get multiplied is moot, and in the game is so easy to make enemies vulnerable to precision damage that it's harder to avoid it.

Sneak damage also isn't guaranteed. Lots of enemies with outright immunity, or true seeing and you aren't riding a pet to threaten them on your first turn when you're making your initial attack. The more optimized you are the more likely you're taking down enemies in 1 or 2 rounds so you might be sneak attacking only half the time.

Also, don't forget your mutagens. Str bonuses also apply both to AB and to damage. Obviously it's not easy to generically calculate how much +1 AB adds compared to +1 damage, but I'd argue it's at least equivalent (outside of meme screenshots where you self-select the round where you roll all 20s).

Enemies immune to sneak are usually immune to crits, but yeah as I said for most of the cases sneak is better, not all the time, hence slayer does more damage usually.
Fighters get more AB, I don't discuss it, just talking about DPS.

The discussion also gets blurred because many enemies have some form of DR that you may or may not be able to bypass, but a fighter can burn feats to stack either 5 or 10 DR pierce which is effectively a flat damage increase on every hit and will impact many enemies that are crit immune (e.g. golems).

The other thing that you're neglecting (though this may be moot, depending on buffing habits, etc.) is that slayer can get (mythic) weapon focus and studied target for attack bonus ((+2) +1 +5) while fighters can get (mythic) greater weapon focus and weapon training ((+4) +2 +4), so they're more likely to hit with their iteratives. They can also use their advanced weapon training to drop an additional -2 on dual wielding penalties that slayer isn't able to. Basically, a fighter's more likely to hit with more of their attacks for more baseline damage that will be multiplied on crit. Slayer's better at additional effects like rogue sneak attack debuffs and dispels that will blend squishier targets, but are impacted by the same problems rogue has just to a lesser extent than rogues.

 

[Lambach]

is mutation warrior/hellknight good build?

No, because Hellknight is a shit PrC. The only reason I'd go for a couple HK levels other than LARPing is because of the Fearsomeness Discipline if you have Cornugon Smash and high Intimidate.

Other than that, the benefits you get from going HK are simply sub-par compared to what you get by leveling Mutation Warrior or pretty much any other Fighter subclass. HK gets Smite Chaos, but that's just a lamer version of Smite Evil in this Campaign (95% of what you're fighting will be Evil, but not all of it is Chaotic e.g. Undead) and there's no Party-wide version of it like Mark of Justice. Bonuses to Saves are too low to be worth it compared to getting Fighter-exclusive Feats and more if them to boot, Weapon Training etc. At HK level 10, you can add certain Properties to your weapon that could be very useful for bypassing enemy DR (e.g. Axiomatic), but there are so many other easily available ways to do the same that investing 10 levels into a sub-par PrC just isn't worth it.