Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[EdgyRightWinger]

10 Mythic Ranks (actually 9 for practical purposes).

For practical purposes, more like 6 ranks. Mythic rank pacing is very bad in this game.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, the respec NPC is at the camp in Act2.
Level cap is 20 + 10 Mythic Ranks (actually 9 for practical purposes). Difficulty has no impact here.

Dragonheir Scion is like a worse fighter - which is a rather vanilla class anyway. But if that's what you like...

This is incorrect.

DH Scion is an archetype where you don’t see all you’re getting until you make a choice (of Bloodline, like Sorc or Bloodrager) within character creation. It’s the same mistake people make with Hellknight/Cavalier Orders.

What you’re looking for in an archetype are unique features that change the way the game plays out without giving up the unique strengths of the class. DH Scion has two:

(1) It’s the only way in the game to get Dazzling Display as a Standard Action without a penalty *and* without burning a Mythic. Opening Combat with Move plus Dazzling is incredibly strong from lvl 6 (when you get the ability) to lvl 15 (earliest Frightful Aspect is available) or later for party comps with no access to Frightful. Before then you can just use Demoralize to do same on Single Target.

The ability itself saves you a Feat, not needing Weapon Focus saves another and works well with Fighter Martial Prof to use best available, and the class comes with a scaling Intimidate bonus. Fighter Bonus Feats make Intimidating Prowess and Skill Focus Persuasion more affordable as well.

(2) It’s the only way in the game to get Arcane Strike without Arcane casting ability and you get it at level one where it does the most relative damage.

IIRC it doesn’t progress (because you don’t get Caster Levels) but the Bloodline does unlock Elemental Damage on it and it’s a prereq for PnP Riving Strike which is available from several common mods. Arcane Strike applies to every hit, not sure if this stacks.

The Bloodline itself offers scaling Natural Armor Bonus (stacks with Barkskin), Elemental Resistances, and Wings at lvl 15. The AC benefit here is likely larger than base Fighter would get from Armor training.

Losing Bravery doesn’t matter much if you’re getting Fear Immunity from a Paladin.

With Scaling Weapon Training, Intimidate, and Natural Armor Bonus the class works well on its own (Capstone gives Immunity to Paralysis, Sleep (Phantasmal Putrefaction), Damage of the Bloodline Energy Type, and 60ft Blindsense) but (1) and (2) above are already there at lvl 6 if you want to use it as base for Prestige.

Sets up well for Dragon Disciple (needs one lvl dip in Arcane casting class) to fight in Dragonform without having to cast it since its full BAB and Weapon Training is nice boost to Dragon Natural Attacks (as is the extra Natural Armor). Not sure how Bloodlines interact.

Pure DH Scion can also fight transformed from Demon or Beast Shape spells from another caster in your party.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, Dragonheir is reasonably OK. Not sure I would characterize standard action dazzling display as "incredibly strong", and the feats you lose early on hurt your progression a lot even if by level 20 you end up with more feats than you could use. The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

 

[Desiderius]

Of course it’s incredibly strong.

The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

Opening every fight with Dazzling is +2 AC for whole team (at lvl 6 not 15), and +2 DC for casters, including Archon’s Aura, which gives an additional +2 AC/AB/DC.

Even better during surprise round to set up everything else. Can only use Standard Actions there, not Full.

 

[Rhobar121]

Yeah, Dragonheir is reasonably OK. Not sure I would characterize standard action dazzling display as "incredibly strong", and the feats you lose early on hurt your progression a lot even if by level 20 you end up with more feats than you could use. The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

Don't even try, it doesn't make sense, you might as well try to break the wall with your head. Desiderius will stick to it no matter what you write, even if he is wrong.

 

[Desiderius]

I’m not, you fucking dipshit, do the goddamned math instead of bitterly clinging to your Fextratard memes, you miserable phaggot.

*I’m* the guy who wrote all those GameFaqs you can’t find any more and instead of taking advantage of it you’d rather pretend guide quality hasn’t taken a nosedive and suck rather than face facts.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...h-the-lord-of-nothing-dlc.145253/post-8790894

 

[Desiderius]

The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

This is endgame thinking anyway, which doesn’t take into account the inverted difficulty curve. Wings is very good but late.

Main benefit of Armor Training is removal of Speed (Charge range) penalty, which is underrated factor in Mut Warrior not being strictly better. DEX bonus applies to Touch where Nat Armor doesn’t, but Nat Armor is always on, even when flat-footed. Probably deciding factor is whether you want to use Stealth, Mobility, or Athletics with Heavy/Shield or not.

Dorf works well with non-Armor Training Archetypes because it gets no benefit from the Speed difference anyway. Dorf racial + Feat getting +4 saves is underrated.

 

[Haplo]

10 Mythic Ranks (actually 9 for practical purposes).

For practical purposes, more like 6 ranks. Mythic rank pacing is very bad in this game.

Yeah, the pacing is bad.
However, when you finally get to MR 6, MR 8 is just behind the corner.
Depending on the path, MR 9 in some cases soon afterwards.

 

[Haplo]

Well, the respec NPC is at the camp in Act2.
Level cap is 20 + 10 Mythic Ranks (actually 9 for practical purposes). Difficulty has no impact here.

Dragonheir Scion is like a worse fighter - which is a rather vanilla class anyway. But if that's what you like...

This is incorrect.

DH Scion is an archetype where you don’t see all you’re getting until you make a choice (of Bloodline, like Sorc or Bloodrager) within character creation. It’s the same mistake people make with Hellknight/Cavalier Orders.

What you’re looking for in an archetype are unique features that change the way the game plays out without giving up the unique strengths of the class. DH Scion has two:

(1) It’s the only way in the game to get Dazzling Display as a Standard Action without a penalty *and* without burning a Mythic. Opening Combat with Move plus Dazzling is incredibly strong from lvl 6 (when you get the ability) to lvl 15 (earliest Frightful Aspect is available) or later for party comps with no access to Frightful. Before then you can just use Demoralize to do same on Single Target.

The ability itself saves you a Feat, not needing Weapon Focus saves another and works well with Fighter Martial Prof to use best available, and the class comes with a scaling Intimidate bonus. Fighter Bonus Feats make Intimidating Prowess and Skill Focus Persuasion more affordable as well.

(2) It’s the only way in the game to get Arcane Strike without Arcane casting ability and you get it at level one where it does the most relative damage.

IIRC it doesn’t progress (because you don’t get Caster Levels) but the Bloodline does unlock Elemental Damage on it and it’s a prereq for PnP Riving Strike which is available from several common mods. Arcane Strike applies to every hit, not sure if this stacks.

The Bloodline itself offers scaling Natural Armor Bonus (stacks with Barkskin), Elemental Resistances, and Wings at lvl 15. The AC benefit here is likely larger than base Fighter would get from Armor training.

Losing Bravery doesn’t matter much if you’re getting Fear Immunity from a Paladin.

With Scaling Weapon Training, Intimidate, and Natural Armor Bonus the class works well on its own (Capstone gives Immunity to Paralysis, Sleep (Phantasmal Putrefaction), Damage of the Bloodline Energy Type, and 60ft Blindsense) but (1) and (2) above are already there at lvl 6 if you want to use it as base for Prestige.

Sets up well for Dragon Disciple (needs one lvl dip in Arcane casting class) to fight in Dragonform without having to cast it since its full BAB and Weapon Training is nice boost to Dragon Natural Attacks (as is the extra Natural Armor). Not sure how Bloodlines interact.

Pure DH Scion can also fight transformed from Demon or Beast Shape spells from another caster in your party.

Yeah, I guess Standard Action Dazzling Display can be situationally good for some builds. Particularly Thug builds.
But the crippled Arcane Strike is just sad.

 

[Average Manatee]

Of course it’s incredibly strong.

The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

Opening every fight with Dazzling is +2 AC for whole team (at lvl 6 not 15), and +2 DC for casters, including Archon’s Aura, which gives an additional +2 AC/AB/DC.

Even better during surprise round to set up everything else. Can only use Standard Actions there, not Full.

Incredibly strong? Then is every other archetype that can add a few +2s incredibly strong?

Especially considering its a temporary bonus that takes a standard action to start/renew. Using your standard action for it in the surprise round presupposes that you start in range of all the enemies, which is a big ask (unless you have a pet of course which you don't). It's also not guaranteed, it's a persuasion check, on a class with dumped CHA. Even if it works, frankly in most instances regular demoralize is just as good as Dazzling Display since if you want to focus on debuffing something it's a strong single enemy. And wasting your standard action as a fighter when it isn't the surprise round is an awful use of your time.

I'd say it can be very good at low levels if you specifically go for shatter defenses early... Except you give up so many feats that its going to be another character who needs to get it. Even then as I said, you can just use demoralize against the bosses that you want to use shatter defenses on.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, the respec NPC is at the camp in Act2.
Level cap is 20 + 10 Mythic Ranks (actually 9 for practical purposes). Difficulty has no impact here.

Dragonheir Scion is like a worse fighter - which is a rather vanilla class anyway. But if that's what you like...

This is incorrect.

DH Scion is an archetype where you don’t see all you’re getting until you make a choice (of Bloodline, like Sorc or Bloodrager) within character creation. It’s the same mistake people make with Hellknight/Cavalier Orders.

What you’re looking for in an archetype are unique features that change the way the game plays out without giving up the unique strengths of the class. DH Scion has two:

(1) It’s the only way in the game to get Dazzling Display as a Standard Action without a penalty *and* without burning a Mythic. Opening Combat with Move plus Dazzling is incredibly strong from lvl 6 (when you get the ability) to lvl 15 (earliest Frightful Aspect is available) or later for party comps with no access to Frightful. Before then you can just use Demoralize to do same on Single Target.

The ability itself saves you a Feat, not needing Weapon Focus saves another and works well with Fighter Martial Prof to use best available, and the class comes with a scaling Intimidate bonus. Fighter Bonus Feats make Intimidating Prowess and Skill Focus Persuasion more affordable as well.

(2) It’s the only way in the game to get Arcane Strike without Arcane casting ability and you get it at level one where it does the most relative damage.

IIRC it doesn’t progress (because you don’t get Caster Levels) but the Bloodline does unlock Elemental Damage on it and it’s a prereq for PnP Riving Strike which is available from several common mods. Arcane Strike applies to every hit, not sure if this stacks.

The Bloodline itself offers scaling Natural Armor Bonus (stacks with Barkskin), Elemental Resistances, and Wings at lvl 15. The AC benefit here is likely larger than base Fighter would get from Armor training.

Losing Bravery doesn’t matter much if you’re getting Fear Immunity from a Paladin.

With Scaling Weapon Training, Intimidate, and Natural Armor Bonus the class works well on its own (Capstone gives Immunity to Paralysis, Sleep (Phantasmal Putrefaction), Damage of the Bloodline Energy Type, and 60ft Blindsense) but (1) and (2) above are already there at lvl 6 if you want to use it as base for Prestige.

Sets up well for Dragon Disciple (needs one lvl dip in Arcane casting class) to fight in Dragonform without having to cast it since its full BAB and Weapon Training is nice boost to Dragon Natural Attacks (as is the extra Natural Armor). Not sure how Bloodlines interact.

Pure DH Scion can also fight transformed from Demon or Beast Shape spells from another caster in your party.

Yeah, I guess Standard Action Dazzling Display can be situationally good for some builds. Particularly Thug builds.
But the crippled Arcane Strike is just sad.

It isn’t. The archetype gets it without the usual prereq, gets an additional elemental die to trigger things that care about it (or simply to do as much additional damage as a full Arcane Strike would usually do much earlier), and unlocks Riving Strike which is good if it doesn’t stack and insane if it does (or would be if things weren’t already dead when you hit them multiple times). Balanced of course by eating your Swift but can go on autocast unlike situational Swifts.

Riving Strike is pretty easy to mod in and a good addition to a couple Bloodrager archetypes that use Arcane Strike as part of Bloodrage.

Half the power of Standard Dazzling is that it doesn’t rely on build. Being able to get it down a turn earlier than Full Action Dazzling makes everything else you’re doing easier and works on everything but Undead.

Thug splash is kind of gimmicky/unnecessary but just straight AoE Shaken application is like Trickster Persuasion Mythic Trick at level 6, and since you can Move in same turn you can set yourself up for a Full Attack the following turn. All most people would be giving up for it in their action econ is a single attack.

 

[Desiderius]

Of course it’s incredibly strong.

The main thing I'd care about is the AC advantage, +3 from dragon defenses and +3 from wings beats +4 max dex bonus (=+2 AC) hard.

Opening every fight with Dazzling is +2 AC for whole team (at lvl 6 not 15), and +2 DC for casters, including Archon’s Aura, which gives an additional +2 AC/AB/DC.

Even better during surprise round to set up everything else. Can only use Standard Actions there, not Full.

Incredibly strong? Then is every other archetype that can add a few +2s incredibly strong?

Especially considering its a temporary bonus that takes a standard action to start/renew. Using your standard action for it in the surprise round presupposes that you start in range of all the enemies, which is a big ask (unless you have a pet of course which you don't). It's also not guaranteed, it's a persuasion check, on a class with dumped CHA. Even if it works, frankly in most instances regular demoralize is just as good as Dazzling Display since if you want to focus on debuffing something it's a strong single enemy. And wasting your standard action as a fighter when it isn't the surprise round is an awful use of your time.

I'd say it can be very good at low levels if you specifically go for shatter defenses early... Except you give up so many feats that its going to be another character who needs to get it. Even then as I said, you can just use demoralize against the bosses that you want to use shatter defenses on.

(1) A few? It’s AoE brother. That’s everybody in 30ft radius. It’s a skill check for you, not a save or resist for them so you can count on applying it to nearly everyone. There *are* no other archetypes that can do that, and it still has a Fighter attached to it.

The class gives you a scaling Intimidate bonus, it’s STR-based so turns on Intimidating Prowess, there’s no reason to dump CHR below 14 in the first place (you don’t have a caster stat), and the Seashell gives your Intimidator +5 untyped with other items, abilities, buffs, and food adding to that.

Git fucking gud, retard.

(2) As a full BAB class, especially as the game goes on you do the lion’s share of your damage with full attax. The design challenge is to get the most out of your Standard Actions on turns where you need to use your Move Action, typically to Move but in some cases for powerful Move Action abilities like Freebooter’s Bane. Demon Mythic combines the two in the Demon Teleport, which works great with DH Scion Dazzling.

Typically that is filled by CMs, Cleaves, or Vital Strikes but if your build isn’t doing those then a single attack isn’t doing very much compared to what you can do with a Full. If you’re planning to fight in Dragonform for instance you want to get the most out of your eight attax and not blow five feats improving your Standard Action.

DH Scion tacks on Arcane + Elemental damage to each of those Natural Attacks along with Weapon Training (Natural Weapons).

(3) IIRC in TB you can open with Charge (make Lann a Drovier or use Haste if you’re too slow to reach, later on can get Swiftboots or whatever), then use the Dazzling during subsequent Surprise Round and slay.

(4) Intimidate isn’t just for bosses since it softens everything else up for control/Archon’s and gives your own team effectively +2AC (+4 if Archon’s hits) against randoms, which is useful on high difficulties.

 

[Rhobar121]

I warned you

 

[Delterius]

have you guys considered being autistically nice instead

 

[Desiderius]

I *am* being autistically nice.

I could just leave them with their heads up their asses. Instead I’m slowly helping them learn how to play better. They’ll eventually get tired of sucking then they’ll listen.

 

[Desiderius]

This particular case sux for me because when I noticed this archetype and tried to test it I got all the way to lvl six and of course the Standard Action Dazzling didn’t work.

It was otherwise solid so kept playing up to lvl 11ish to test Demon but meant to come back to it when they finally fixed it. They have now but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

M. AQVILA asked me to design a Dragon Disciple that fought in Dragon Form for him in P:K and we came up with a pretty cool build based on Scaled Fist. I’d like to come back to it with Scion instead so maybe will try that next week.

The real test of a build is how it plays as you level so respeccing a late save doesn’t really capture that. I do remember even Full Action Dazzling being pretty damn good on Val in P:K so had been looking forward to the Standard version since I noticed it on the Dragonheir Scion Class sheet.

Now that there’s more support for Natural Attacks and Standard Dazzling works all the tools are there. Six or seven levels of Scion, one of an Arcane class* to unlock DD then start with Dragon Disciple levels until you hit Dragonform. Could even use it as a shell for Gold Dragon (the original motivation).

* - also facilitates Archmage Armor in Dragonform

 

[ga♥]

Companions in WotR are not terrible, at least those that start at a low level or are broken (Aruehalle). Others like Regil or even worse Greyboar are bad. Theoretically, there is alsol Sosiel, but Cleric in WotR cannot be bad as long as you have access to any domain.
At least there is no situation like in the Kingsmaker where most of the initial companion builds are so bad that they are almost useless.
Who came up with the idea of Barbarian with 16 str or fighter with 19 con?
In addition, we have Ekun, who is as boring as paint drying on the wall, but has the best statistics (much higher than your character can achieve).

Tell me you never played Regill without telling me you never played Regill. Do you understand that Hellknight Order abilities (including up to three Domains from his Godclaw) don't show up on the Character Sheet until they're chosen? On top of that he's got +3 Morale AoE Aura that includes AC (so stacks with everything)?

Don't come to this forum with ghey Fextralife memes.

I don't like regil too, from a gameplay point of view.
His hellknight prestige make you give up too many feats (5?), and he needs a lot with his TWF, also forces you to get mythic finesse, unless you go STR... but he already has much higher DEX so meh.

Also I think it is bugged now, it wouldn't let me select Pentametic faith/domains...

IMHO leveling up his fighter class and forgetting hellknight would be better.

Greybor on the other hand can work ok, because he's STR based and gets a feat every level.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I kinda enjoyed two-handed fighter more than other fighter archetypes, but didn't go balls deep on it.

 

[Desiderius]

Companions in WotR are not terrible, at least those that start at a low level or are broken (Aruehalle). Others like Regil or even worse Greyboar are bad. Theoretically, there is alsol Sosiel, but Cleric in WotR cannot be bad as long as you have access to any domain.
At least there is no situation like in the Kingsmaker where most of the initial companion builds are so bad that they are almost useless.
Who came up with the idea of Barbarian with 16 str or fighter with 19 con?
In addition, we have Ekun, who is as boring as paint drying on the wall, but has the best statistics (much higher than your character can achieve).

Tell me you never played Regill without telling me you never played Regill. Do you understand that Hellknight Order abilities (including up to three Domains from his Godclaw) don't show up on the Character Sheet until they're chosen? On top of that he's got +3 Morale AoE Aura that includes AC (so stacks with everything)?

Don't come to this forum with ghey Fextralife memes.

I don't like regil too, from a gameplay point of view.
His hellknight prestige make you give up too many feats (5?), and he needs a lot with his TWF, also forces you to get mythic finesse, unless you go STR... but he already has much higher DEX so meh.

Also I think it is bugged now, it wouldn't let me select Pentametic faith/domains...

IMHO leveling up his fighter class and forgetting hellknight would be better.

Greybor on the other hand can work ok, because he's STR based and gets a feat every level.

The domains were bugged for awhile since he had Godclaw as his Deity instead of his Order, but that was fixed a year or so ago. HK domains/abilities would be better if Order levels taken with Armiger counted (which they should).

He’s a little slow on the Feats but eventually gets there. Mythic Finesse is fine but he does enough damage without it. Three Domains + the Aura + the other HK stuff > five Feats since he gets so many Bonus Feats from the Armiger levels, but he’s much stronger at lvl 13 (when secondary Domain abilities turn on) than when you get him at lvl 7.

The speed increase also made him a lot more effective than he was originally if that’s what people are going by.

Gheybor is tough to fit in unless you’re going without Aru since half of Slayer value is filling Scout role she’s so good at. He sets up to get Shield Mastery immediately using Combat Style Slayer talent to skip prereqs. That significantly helps his survivability while not sacrificing damage since Holy Bashing Shield shows up at same time and Shield Mastery is so good.

 

[Yosharian]

Regill is average in terms of his default build and stuff, but he is the best companion in the game easily so... Just respec him.

 

[Sarathiour]

have you guys considered being autistically nice instead

How dare you

 

[Desiderius]

Regill is average in terms of his default build and stuff, but he is the best companion in the game easily so... Just respec him.

The two usual reasons for full respec, variety and shitty build/archetype don’t apply here. You’ve got three different entirely unique abilities available via Domains (Touch of Law, Inspiring Command, and Dimensional Hop) along with things like Fearsomeness that take him in an entirely different direction.

That doesn’t even take into account the other HK abilities which could also get there with some work but that even I haven’t tried yet. Since his Morale Aura stacks even on AB and Damage where it shouldn’t the only good reason to respec him is because rn HK is *too* good in a bugged way.

 

[Desiderius]

The only meh part is that the unique things he can do later (with that later being lvl 13, which is early enough for the harder ch3 stuff and all of Abyss) aren't online yet when you get him.

If you want to play him anyway then because RP, stipulation, or just liking the character you can use him as your Intimidator (holding him up for a round to allow tankier characters to grab aggro as with Amiri in P:K) then just play him STR-based with Power Attack, Enlarge, and Bull's Strength since he has Smite Chaos to hit the tougher targets anyway. As his abilities and Feats come in you can switch to DEX-based with Reduce and let him offtank. Inspiring Command + his Aura end up at +5 AC which also applies to him making him tanky enough at that point to survive on his own.

He also can get Touch of Law right away which you can bring him in for on skill checks or combine with Domain Zealot to use strategically in combat.



Here I was using him as my assassin to interrupt dangerous spells before they could go off (RTwP only)



He also has a nice favorite food to help him land blows. With all the attacks he works well with Leading Strike (RTwP only). I've found ranged characters help get the marks cashed in consistently.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

have you guys considered being autistically nice instead

Can't. Protocol, etiquette, politeness and rectitude often propose too many contradictory options.

 

[Cryomancer]

Desideius, since you know a lot about the game, which MP do you suggest for a Shadowcaster? I will re play wotr after I finish RT and die in hardcore ddo.