Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Delterius]

What sort of inbred came up with the idea that your mythic spells should only scale by your mythic level if you don't merge spell books? Merging spellbooks is already broken to the point of trivializing the game, but the alternate is that you will never pass an offensive spell DC.

Honestly owlcat surprises me at each point, it's as if they are making some stuff so broken as to make it so you completely faceroll the game while making the alternatives so bad that you won't ever even get to apply its effects in encounters.

This game is so frustrating, the good parts are really good and enjoyable, but the bad parts are either completely unusable or borderline dealbreaking. That's ignoring all the gamebreaking oversights.

Pathfinder, more like trap choice finder.

Owlcat's balance passes are amateurish at best. The notion that they wouldn't implement muskets because they are supposedly overpowered is laughable given that every other feature in Wrath tend to completely invalidate the game. I considered playing an Oracle Angel merge but now I can't conceive of doing so. Maybe if this was my first RPG. But no hobbyist worth it's salt should spellbook merge. Wrath has Dragon Age: Origins tier design and Spellbook Merging is the return of Mana Clash.

 

[Delterius]

'd much prefer Owlcat just made a Starfinder

Disagreed; Starfinder lacks full casters. It has only half caster aka technomancer. I don't wanna to be a lv 20 caster unable to cast tier 7 spells.

Meh. Iron Gods is about being an android and using laser guns. I couldn't care less about it. I want to be a caster and I want my caster gameplay to be fulfilling. This means I want a setting that supports it and a game system that comes broken out of the box.

Merging spellbooks is already broken to the point of trivializing the game, but the alternate is that you will never pass an offensive spell DC.

Disagreed. Favorable magic from Azata is amazing.

Un-merged books have garbage DCs. Doesn't matter if you stack misfortune when enemies auto pass. And Favorable Magic is not a fraction of the sheer stupidity of Merged Spellbooks. You might as well use the console and activate god mode.

 

[FreeKaner]

Disagreed. Favorable magic from Azata is amazing.

I meant spells from the mythic levels you get. Not the DC bonuses you get from mythic paths to your regular spells. In terms of passing DCs Azata and Demon are not as good as spellbook merging but at least can pass some DCs. The problem exists when you don't spellbook merge and try to use the mythic spells the mythic path gives you, they only scale off your mythic level which will be in 3-6 range for 80% of the game. Unless of course you merge spellbooks, then they are going to be ahead of your class level.

It's just entirely nonsensical decision to make spells from mythic paths depend on mythic level, instead of your total level or even highest class level.

 

[Cryomancer]

Fuck Balance. The best games don't care about it, just like the best countries don't care about "equality". That said, the problem with the game is not that it is unbalanced. The problem of the game is htat you can only reach epic level spellcasting via merging spellbook.

And Favorable Magic is not a fraction of the sheer stupidity of Merged Spellbooks. You might as well use the console and activate god mode.

The problem is that the DC of a lot of spells are bugged.

For example, I in end of my unfair run on kingmaker, was with a DC of 44 to break the Strength check from the spell Ice prison/mass. Not even a Jabberwock could break the spell in a 20. And will deal 22 damage each round(+2 damage from specialization) + 11 due vulnerability till he breaks free(never)

, they only scale off your mythic level which will be in 3-6 range for 80% of the game. Unless of course you merge spellbooks, then they are going to be ahead of your class level.

It's just entirely nonsensical decision to make spells from mythic paths depend on mythic level, instead of your total level or even highest class level.

Nice point. I agree. However, I only use mythic spells in Azata for buffing, so it is not that a big deal for me. Also, your dragon companion as a Azata can reach a caster level of 35. She can give 46 SR to everyone in your party.

 

[FreeKaner]

Fuck Balance. The best games don't care about it, just like the best countries don't care about "equality". That said, the problem with the game is not that it is unbalanced. The problem of the game is htat you can only reach epic level spellcasting via merging spellbook.


Nice point. I agree. However, I only use mythic spells in Azata for buffing, so it is not that a big deal for me. Also, your dragon companion as a Azata can reach a caster level of 35. She can give 46 SR to everyone in your party.

This isn't about "balance", balance is about relative power level of choices. This is about "trap choices". If as an Azata you pick buff / refresh stuff that doesn't ever need to pass a DC check, you have made the correct choice. If you picked any offensive spells, you have made the wrong choice. This is called a trap choice, you are never be able to ever use that ability, it will always be a waste of rounds / spell slots whatever it is. This is not case of spellbook merged angel oracle one-rounding Deskari, this is the case of the alternatives being either that, or you can't even pass the spell DC of a spell you picked from your mythic path against random demon mooks that are your level.

Trap choices are unequivocally bad. This game is full of them. Indeed half of the gameplay is simply filtering out what are trap choices, some are intuitive such as alignment effects on weapons or DR, others are obstructed. There is no disclaimer or intuitive reason why the mythic spells which you get at earliest at level 8-10 should be only considering your mythic level when the enemies you are facing will be 10+ level at minimum and going to have DC checks at the high 20s at lowest.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

It's so awesome to see the pathetic faggot Azatas raging about their weakass spellcasting. If you're not a chad Lich/Angel, you don't deserve the merged spellbook level of power, Owlcat blance is based.

 

[Delterius]

The problem is that the DC of a lot of spells are bugged.

The problem is that Spellbook Merging is a mouthbreather's idea of a feature that invalidates the game. You might as well activate the console and give yourself experience points. That's how pathetic it is to play a merged Lich or Angel. And yes, that is on top of how Owlcat being ridiculously lenient with gear and bonus stacking. I want to play a powerful caster in a good system. I don't want to play Dragon Age: the Mana Clashings 2.

 

[FreeKaner]

It's so awesome to see the pathetic faggot Azatas raging about their weakass spellcasting. If you're not a chad Lich/Angel, you don't deserve the merged spellbook level of power, Owlcat blance is based.

Azatas don't have weak spellcasting at all, zippy magic and favourable magic means they are able to cast spells that pass almost any DC check. Azatas have ability to refresh all party's spells without rest, as well as make their whole party immune to a whole lot of effects that hamper spellcasting. Azata spellcasters are very strong, what is weak is Azatas that want to use offensive spells from their mythic spell list.

 

[Delterius]

It's so awesome to see the pathetic faggot Azatas raging about their weakass spellcasting. If you're not a chad Lich/Angel, you don't deserve the merged spellbook level of power, Owlcat blance is based.

Azatas don't have weak spellcasting at all, zippy magic and favourable magic means they are able to cast spells that pass almost any DC check. Azatas have ability to refresh all party's spells without rest, as well as make their whole party immune to a whole lot of effects that hamper spellcasting. Azata spellcasters are very strong, what is weak is Azatas that want to use offensive spells from their mythic spell list.

Correct. It takes a very special kind of person to think that Azatas have weak spellcasting. The kind that uses Spellbook Merging as a crutch.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The problem is that the DC of a lot of spells are bugged.

The problem is that Spellbook Merging is a mouthbreather's idea of a feature that invalidates the game. You might as well activate the console and give yourself experience points. That's how pathetic it is to play a merged Lich or Angel. And yes, that is on top of how Owlcat being ridiculously lenient with gear and bonus stacking. I want to play a powerful caster in a good system. I don't want to play Dragon Age: the Mana Clashings 2.

So... Don't use it and instead use your class abilities and other mythic path features?

 

[FreeKaner]

So... Don't use it and instead use your class abilities and other mythic path features?

This brings us back to the initial point, if you don't spellbook merge, your mythic spell list is useless for any ability that has to pass a check. I don't want to use spellbook merging, but I also don't get to not spellbook merge and use spells from the spell list that has to make a DC against enemies you are facing at your level. There is only one possible choice, you either spellbook merge and use spells from your mythic spell list that has to pass DC or you don't and you can never use them. The only option the game is giving you is to merge spellbooks, which trivalizes the game.

Surely you get the issue here? Shouldn't be too hard to have something between "you are going to faceroll entire encounters, and can even one-round an enemy that you are not even supposed to defeat" vs. "you are never going to use this spell against any enemy you are facing". It would be an easy solution to just base your mythic spells based on your highest class level, but no, it is mythic level. Enjoy casting your spells from mythic list at caster level 3 or 4 for nearly entirety of act 3 and 4.

 

[Delterius]

The problem is that the DC of a lot of spells are bugged.

The problem is that Spellbook Merging is a mouthbreather's idea of a feature that invalidates the game. You might as well activate the console and give yourself experience points. That's how pathetic it is to play a merged Lich or Angel. And yes, that is on top of how Owlcat being ridiculously lenient with gear and bonus stacking. I want to play a powerful caster in a good system. I don't want to play Dragon Age: the Mana Clashings 2.

So... Don't use it and instead use your class abilities and other mythic path features?

The problem is that non merged spellbooks are duds. Play a Cleric of Urgathoa and become a Lich. Congratulations, every Lich spell that relies on DCs is crippled. Non merged spellbooks used to have a casting stat, generally Charisma but also Wisdom for Angels and Intelligence for Liches. That was a problem for non standard combos such as Celestial Sorcerer + Angel. But instead of offering people a way to choose their casting stat Owlcat decided to remove casting stats entirely, crippling the feature. That is that issue at hand. That I, personally, consider Spellbook Merging a dumb feature is besides the point. I highly doubt Owlcat meant to design Demon/Aeon/Trickster/Azata/non Merged Lich/non merged Angel spellbooks with the assumption that their DC based spells would be useless.

 

[mediocrepoet]

So... Don't use it and instead use your class abilities and other mythic path features?

This brings us back to the initial point, if you don't spellbook merge, your mythic spell list is useless for any ability that has to pass a check. I don't want to use spellbook merging, but I also don't get to not spellbook merge and use spells from the spell list that has to make a DC against enemies you are facing at your level. There is only one possible choice, you either spellbook merge and use spells from your mythic spell list that has to pass DC or you don't and you can never use them. The only option the game is giving you is to merge spellbooks, which trivalizes the game.

Surely you get the issue here? Shouldn't be too hard to have something between "you are going to faceroll entire encounters, and can even one-round an enemy that you are not even supposed to defeat" vs. "you are never going to use this spell against any enemy you are facing". It would be an easy solution to just base your mythic spells based on your highest class level, but no, it is mythic level. Enjoy casting your spells from mythic list at caster level 3 or 4 for nearly entirety of act 3 and 4.

I get the issue, but I also get why they did it. They tried to make mythic paths usable in a build agnostic way. If they base DCs on a given casting stat, they've already turned away from that, even if they "forked" it and made it contingent on best stat of x/y/z. Basing DC on class level or overall level is retarded and just as arbitrary as the mythic path base.

I'm not suggesting that their decision is ideal or without problems, merely that I get why it's the way it is.

 

[FreeKaner]

I get the issue, but I also get why they did it. They tried to make mythic paths usable in a build agnostic way. If they base DCs on a given casting stat, they've already turned away from that, even if they "forked" it and made it contingent on best stat of x/y/z. Basing DC on class level or overall level is retarded and just as arbitrary as the mythic path base.

I'm not suggesting that their decision is ideal or without problems, merely that I get why it's the way it is.

If it is going to be arbitrary, it may as well not be a complete trap choice. If it is going to be mythic level, at least make it mythic level plus 8 or something like that so it stays reasonably close to what a hybrid caster's checks would be at that point so you can use it at least against mooks.

Or just remove DC check spells from non-merged spellbooks entirely and give them something else instead.

 

[Delterius]

I'm not suggesting that their decision is ideal or without problems, merely that I get why it's the way it is.

Here's the thing: your post already shows that they made the worst possible decision. To make the mythic spellbooks build agnostic it must synergize with many different types of characters. Basing it around Mythic Ranks or Character Levels are blanket solutions that can either under-shoot or over-shoot the problem. By basing it around Mythic Ranks you basically made it anything but build agnostic: un-merged mythic spellbooks are only worth buffs and attack roll spells that don't require DCs. Meaning they synergize most with characters that do not care about having a spellbook in the first place. The Trickster Ranger gets to use buffs like Microscopic Proportions and Fish Missile. The Azata Witch might as well ignore the damage portions of Water Torrent.

Like I said, back in the beta every Mythic had a casting stat. Which meant that Sorcerer Azatas, Stigmatized Witch Tricksters, Empyreal Sorcerer Angels all worked. Now you can either be a merged Lich/Angel and cruise through the game, or you are an unsupported combination. The system became *less* build agnostic, not more.

And all of this doesn't touch on a second issue: if the progression of merged spellbooks is so quick it trivializes the game, the progression of un-merged mythic spellbooks is too slow.

 

[Cryomancer]

But instead of offering people a way to choose their casting stat Owlcat decided to remove casting stats entirely, crippling the feature

Yep. In BETA, there was mods to change the casting stat. Instead of allowing it on all casting stats, they decided to cripple mythic spells.

Other problem of spell merging is that there are only one spell merging for arcane and one for divine casters.

You can't make a celestial sorcerer and merge with angel just like you can't make a cleric with undead domain and merge with lich.

And other thing that I found nonsensical is

OwlCat : "we don't wanna muskets, they are too op" (I could understand that they aren't worth the effort, are redundant with crossbows, doesn't fit the setting or any other reason)
Also OwlCat : Here, take this tier 10 pit of win which deals over 30d6 damage per round for 30 rounds while create a epic level nightshade nightcrawler at lv 30.

 

[Delterius]

Other problem of spell merging is that there are only one spell merging for arcane and one for divine casters.

And not all casters for that matter. Druids don't even get to merge with anybody. Thematically they fit best with Azata and sad is the Druid who thought they'd be nuking people with waterfalls and torrents.

Also OwlCat : Here, take this tier pit of win button tier 10 spell which deals over 30d6 damage per round for 30 rounds while create a epic level nightshade nightcrawler.

I like powerful magic, but I dislike win buttons. You know, I want to be a wizard/sorcerer with a full spellbook and use it all. But if you literally give me a win button I don't get to have that experience. I just press the win button.

 

[Efe]

Everyone should have merged at varying levels but they didnt want to bother

 

[Cryomancer]

Other problem of spell merging is that there are only one spell merging for arcane and one for divine casters.

And not all casters for that matter. Druids don't even get to merge with anybody. Thematically they fit best with Azata and sad is the Druid who thought they'd be nuking people with waterfalls and torrents.

Yep. Merging spellbooks makes Angel~Divine caster/Lich~Arcane too great and everything else too boring. TBH when I heard about mythic spellbook merging, I was thinking that the progression in caster level would be like half of mythic rank instead of full mythic rank. Not that I would be casting tier 8 spells in chapter 2 like I was... I really wanna play my Azata cryomancer, but OwlCat never fixes the ice prison DC.

Everyone should have merged at varying levels but they didnt want to bother

Agreed. IMO every mythic path should allow spell merging and increasing caster level at half of mythic rank. Maybe some mythic ranks with half and some where it makes more sense like 1/4.

 

[Daidre]

This brings us back to the initial point, if you don't spellbook merge, your mythic spell list is useless for any ability that has to pass a check. I don't want to use spellbook merging, but I also don't get to not spellbook merge and use spells from the spell list that has to make a DC against enemies you are facing at your level.

But DC check on the spells NEVER scales from the Caster Level. Only duration. So your lvl 1 spell always shitty, no matter whether it came from your natural Spellbook or it is from your Mythic Path.

A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability.

And I have checked just now, Mythic spells have the same formula but use Mythyc CL instead the casting stat. So my heavy-melee leaning Magus with shitty INT have better DC on Mythyc mind-controls than on CCs from her own book.
So yes, Mythyc spells worse than class spells when we are talking about full caster built to maximasize their cating stat but better for anyone else, who has a minor or medium spellcasting ability.
And you are what, claiming that developers should cut all suboptimal spells fron the list - because their players are cretins who can't make an informed choice? Or that they should put better spells on Spell levels 1-3 (instead of remixing normal spellbooks) only because they came from Mythic paths?
There are still useful things there like Vanish, Good Hope or Mirror Image but they would also be useless if you already have them on your MC or in your party composition.

 

[Delterius]

But DC check on the spells NEVER scales from the Caster Level.

Nobody said that.

So your lvl 1 spell always shitty

No.

no matter whether it came from your natural Spellbook or it is from your Mythic Path.

The normal spellbook benefits from your casting stat. The Mythic spellbook does not.

Mythic spells have the same formula but use Mythyc CL instead the casting stat.

Welcome to the actual discussion.

So my heavy-melee leaning Magus with shitty INT have better DC on Mythyc mind-controls, then on CCs from her own book.

Your shitty Magus has equally ineffective spells.

suboptimal spells

The spells are useless. Not 'suboptimal'.

because their players are cretins who can't make an informed choice?

There is no choice. If you can't spellbook merge, you get useless spells.

Or that they should put better spells on Spell levels 1-3

They should put spells that do something regardless of shitty un-merged spellbook DCs. Or, you know, fix the goddamn spellbooks.

There are still useful things there like Vanish

No. Also, again, welcome the discussion. Which is not about the buff spells.

Good Hope or Mirror Image but they would also be useless if you already have them in your party composition.

That's called a redundancy. Having different ways of casting a spell is not the same as casting a spell that does nothing because the DC is too low.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Without any conneciton to your discussion.

I think it is a good idea that the game sometimes rewards failed skill checks. As I understand, it is impossible to receive an item from our monk friend if the check is passed; and I read a spoiler that at some early point the main hero receives a nice cloak on a failed will save.

I like it very much.

 

[FreeKaner]

And you are what, claiming that developers should cut all suboptimal spells fron the list - because their players are cretins who can't make an informed choice? Or that they should put better spells on Spell levels 1-3 (instead of remixing normal spellbooks) only because they came from Mythic paths?

The latter. The game has enough trap choices as it is, anyone who is playing this seriously on any of the harder difficulties already knows they are wading through trap choices they have to skip, it is an essential but not particularly hard to come by ability.

What I want is spells and abilities that are more useful if I am not spellbook merging. Don't really need many of them, but enough that I never have to pick any offensive DC ability. Azata is best in this regard, they get bunch of spells that doesnn't need a DC. Some are in way worse situation.

What you are talking about the mythic levels being better for casting than the stat is wrong because of the pace you get these levels and the spell levels you get for them, as well as only applying your mythic levels to them. Your spell level is considered 2 for the ability you get at mythic level 3. So you are getting spells that are cast as level 2 spells with 3 bonus to it. They are equivalent to a level 10 character casting a level 2 ability with +3 stats. You have this bonus for nearly entirety of act 3, which is the longest act, and has enemies from anywhere from 10 to 18.

Obviously this is atrocious and very much only going to succeed at nat20 rolls, it is like trying to make an offensive CD with a bloodrager with 16 cha. Which you are never going to do. You don't even try to cast offensive spells as a hybrid caster when casting level 5 spells at that level, you don't even pick them. So the question here is did owlcat intend that classes don't merge spellbooks should only try to cast offensive spells like a bloodrager would (which would never pick offensive DC spells normally), if that's the case, why would they even add them for non-merged spellbooks?

 

[Ramnozack]

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs, like wtf? Its literally the BEST path for a dc caster. Permanent persistent spell on everything you cast which is I believe equivalent to +5 dc, +2 dc to will saving throws (ode to miraculous magic spell 10 min/level), +2 to all dcs (believe in yourself +4 morale bonus to int 10 min/level), +2 dc to all spells (songs of steel 1 rnd/lvl). What other path can really compete with that in terms of dc casting? Demon with its +8 dc I believe still falls short. As far as I know lich doesnt have much of anything to increase dcs.

 

[Delterius]

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs

It's very on brand for a Codexer to call everyone else retarded while missing what the conversation is even about.