Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Delterius]

But DC check on the spells NEVER scales from the Caster Level.

Nobody said that.

So your lvl 1 spell always shitty

No.

no matter whether it came from your natural Spellbook or it is from your Mythic Path.

The normal spellbook benefits from your casting stat. The Mythic spellbook does not.

Mythic spells have the same formula but use Mythyc CL instead the casting stat.

Welcome to the actual discussion.

So my heavy-melee leaning Magus with shitty INT have better DC on Mythyc mind-controls, then on CCs from her own book.

Your shitty Magus has equally ineffective spells.

suboptimal spells

The spells are useless. Not 'suboptimal'.

because their players are cretins who can't make an informed choice?

There is no choice. If you can't spellbook merge, you get useless spells.

Or that they should put better spells on Spell levels 1-3

They should put spells that do something regardless of shitty un-merged spellbook DCs. Or, you know, fix the goddamn spellbooks.

There are still useful things there like Vanish

No. Also, again, welcome the discussion. Which is not about the buff spells.

Good Hope or Mirror Image but they would also be useless if you already have them in your party composition.

That's called a redundancy. Having different ways of casting a spell is not the same as casting a spell that does nothing because the DC is too low.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Without any conneciton to your discussion.

I think it is a good idea that the game sometimes rewards failed skill checks. As I understand, it is impossible to receive an item from our monk friend if the check is passed; and I read a spoiler that at some early point the main hero receives a nice cloak on a failed will save.

I like it very much.

 

[FreeKaner]

And you are what, claiming that developers should cut all suboptimal spells fron the list - because their players are cretins who can't make an informed choice? Or that they should put better spells on Spell levels 1-3 (instead of remixing normal spellbooks) only because they came from Mythic paths?

The latter. The game has enough trap choices as it is, anyone who is playing this seriously on any of the harder difficulties already knows they are wading through trap choices they have to skip, it is an essential but not particularly hard to come by ability.

What I want is spells and abilities that are more useful if I am not spellbook merging. Don't really need many of them, but enough that I never have to pick any offensive DC ability. Azata is best in this regard, they get bunch of spells that doesnn't need a DC. Some are in way worse situation.

What you are talking about the mythic levels being better for casting than the stat is wrong because of the pace you get these levels and the spell levels you get for them, as well as only applying your mythic levels to them. Your spell level is considered 2 for the ability you get at mythic level 3. So you are getting spells that are cast as level 2 spells with 3 bonus to it. They are equivalent to a level 10 character casting a level 2 ability with +3 stats. You have this bonus for nearly entirety of act 3, which is the longest act, and has enemies from anywhere from 10 to 18.

Obviously this is atrocious and very much only going to succeed at nat20 rolls, it is like trying to make an offensive CD with a bloodrager with 16 cha. Which you are never going to do. You don't even try to cast offensive spells as a hybrid caster when casting level 5 spells at that level, you don't even pick them. So the question here is did owlcat intend that classes don't merge spellbooks should only try to cast offensive spells like a bloodrager would (which would never pick offensive DC spells normally), if that's the case, why would they even add them for non-merged spellbooks?

 

[Ramnozack]

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs, like wtf? Its literally the BEST path for a dc caster. Permanent persistent spell on everything you cast which is I believe equivalent to +5 dc, +2 dc to will saving throws (ode to miraculous magic spell 10 min/level), +2 to all dcs (believe in yourself +4 morale bonus to int 10 min/level), +2 dc to all spells (songs of steel 1 rnd/lvl). What other path can really compete with that in terms of dc casting? Demon with its +8 dc I believe still falls short. As far as I know lich doesnt have much of anything to increase dcs.

 

[Delterius]

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs

It's very on brand for a Codexer to call everyone else retarded while missing what the conversation is even about.

 

[Daidre]

What you are talking about the mythic levels being better for casting than the stat is wrong because of the pace you get these levels and the spell levels you get for them. Your spell level is considered 2 for the ability you get at mythic level 3. So you are getting spells that are cast as level 2 spells with 3 bonus to it. They are equivalent to a level 10 character casting a level 2 ability with +3 stats. You have this bonus for nearly entirety of act 3, which is the longest act, and has enemies from anywhere from 10 to 18.

Case you are describing is impossible - Azata gets lvl 2 spells at rank 4, she could never cast them with "3 bonus to it". She gets at lvl 4 and that is analogue to 18 main spellcasting stat. So replacing casting stat with Mythic Rank we get "casting" stat in +3-10 range, analogue to 16-30 Int/Wis/Cha. It is more than 95% of builds, who are not spellcasting-focused could ever dream of.

And I agree that Mythic Spells are useless on Hard+. Fuck, half of my Bard's spellbook was useless on Unfair in P:K. Should we delete it too?

 

[Ramnozack]

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs

It's very on brand for a Codexer to call everyone else retarded while missing what the conversation is even about.

If what I said doesnt apply to you, then that is ironic of you. I get some people are complaining about mythic path spell dcs being bad and I get that and agree with it. Some people weren't talking about this, I was talking about them.

 

[Delterius]

She gets for and that is analogue to 18 main spellcasting stat.

At Mythic Rank 4? Exactly, it's complete garbage.

Should we delete it too?

Saying something is bad and should be improved is not a case for removal.

It is more than 95% of builds, who are not spellcasting-focused could ever dream of.

I love that the caveat here is that 'builds which do not care about having functional DCs can get equally useless but slightly better DCs under the current system'. What are you even talking about? These games are so generous with buffs and equipment. If your Magus can't beat a +4 casting stat bonus then you don't care about DCs at all.

 

[Cryomancer]

I like powerful magic, but I dislike win buttons. You know, I want to be a wizard/sorcerer with a full spellbook and use it all. But if you literally give me a win button I don't get to have that experience. I just press the win button.

Me too. Ideally, spells should be situational. Eg - Disintegrate should't be effective vs enemies who has crazy high fortitude save or high concealment or high touch AC. Pit spells should't work in flying enemies and so on. I wish that more enemies in kingmaker casts spells like freedom of movement and so on.

Retarded to see idiots talking about azata being weak at DCs, like wtf? I

Nobody is saying it. Please. Read the discussion before posting.

 

[Sheepherder]

Blightmaw on Unfair down in 2 turns. The incubus torturer was significantly harder and even the ghost and that destruction casting cleric in the church gave me more trouble.

Application of intimidation. Didn't manage to Terrify it on first attempt, but that didn't matter.

Spoiler

And then shoot it for 2 turns, 6 times per turn.

Spoiler

Couldn't straight up tank its attacks tho, Last Stand saved the day here. I guess I could have used the Angel summon.
Is there a way to stack enough AC by this point to tank it without getting hit?

 

[Daidre]

I love that the caveat here is that 'builds which do not care about having functional DCs can get equally useless but slightly better DCs under the current system'. What are you even talking about? These games are so generous with buffs and equipment. If your Magus can't beat a +4 casting stat bonus then you don't care about DCs at all.

So... people on Normal could still land them when targeting the weakest save, people on Core could land them with some preparations (Archon's Aura, Dazzling Display, Witch Hexes) and they are useless for people on Hard/Unfair like 80% of all spells in game.

And what is wrong? Owlcat renamed Challenging > Core strategically, for people who don't have unhealthy obsession with the math but picked Hard, nonethelsess, due to their ego, and could never stop bitching about "faulty" rules as a result.

 

[Delterius]

Me too. Ideally, spells should be situational. Eg - Disintegrate should't be effective vs enemies who has crazy high fortitude save or high concealment or high touch AC. Pit spells should't work in flying enemies and so on. I wish that more enemies in kingmaker casts spells like freedom of movement and so on.

In the future we'll be able to upload these games to an AI that will SCS them all. But until then I just avoid the Win-Button choices. The first 2 dozen times I cast Stinking Cloud // Sirocco in Kingmaker was entertaining. On my second playthrough I picked Thassilonian with Conjuration as an opposite school just to force me to use things like Color Spray and Hideous Laughter in the early game.

So... people on Normal

I only play on Core. And I think that mythic spellbooks shouldn't be weaker than normal spellbooks on every difficulty level. If you find that so objectionable that your only recourse is to pretend Core is 'beyond the pale', so be it. We aren't speaking the same language after all.

useless for people on Hard/Unfair like 80% of all spells in game.

No.

 

[Daidre]

useless for people on Hard/Unfair like 80% of all spells in game.

No.

Ok, I will reiterate my point, 80% of all spells any caster has access to at select point of time are useless, because characters on Hard/Unfair are usually designed with specific school foci in mind and equipped accordingly, so using those out-of-area-of-expertise spells will always be a subpar choice for a spell slot/combat action they take.

Good old "just Heighten the Grease" conundrum.

PS Or just Heighten the Stinky and gas that annoying Wild Hunt in Kingmaker.

 

[Delterius]

so using those out-of-area-of-experize spells will always be a subpar choice.

Again: No. Just because a Wizard has spell focus Evocation and Enchantment doesn't mean the Grease spell is useless. Your analogy makes no sense either. An Evocation/Enchantment Wizard memorizing Siroccos and Confusions instead of Stinking Cloud and Chains of Light is completely different from a hypothetical reality where all Wizards use Sirocco and Confusion, not because Sirocco and Confusion are good, but because Stinking Cloud and Chains of Light arbitrarily don't get their full DC bonus. Furthermore, the reason why Grease can still be useful to someone who doesn't have Spell Focus Conjuration is because all of their spells benefit from a casting stat.

You keep going back to trying to argue that DC based unmerged mythic spells are merely subpar. They are not. They are arbitrarily crippled, bordering on uselessness. And yes, people used to land them... back in the beta when they benefitted from a casting stat. Those spells already suffer from how the un-merged mythic spellbooks have a slow progression and cannot fully benefit from heighten metamagic. Why keep a double nerf that benefits no one?

 

[The_Mask]

*everyone that plays martial classes looking at this intermezzo*: "This is so sad to see."

 

[Daidre]

Those spells already suffer from how the un-merged mythic spellbooks have a slow progression and cannot fully benefit from heighten metamagic. Why keep a double nerf that benefits no one?

Because the game had already reached buggy powerlevel-ly singularity even without giving each and every class his own separate Mythic version of Medium Spellcasting progression starting from the late chapter 3?

And beside it creates huge problem with casting stat choice for each Mythic Path. Choosing highest mental stat from INT/WIS/CHA? Way too crazy, each CHA-stacking double dipped Monkadin could be a 2/3 caster now. Bind some predetermined stat to Mythic Path specifically, Like INT to Lich and CHA to Azata? Sorc-based Liches and Azata-wizards will hate your guts for being punished for their alignment-fitting RP choices.

 

[Daidre]

*everyone that plays martial classes looking at this intermezzo*: "This is so sad to see."

I love to argue, but I am not yet touching full caster MCs with a bargepole too in my runs. I've only tried an Oracle once and abandoned her after I've found 4 bugs in her Revelation/Mystery/Curse progression in the span of 2 hours.

Then I've tried Bloodrager only to find half of his bloodlines not working...
And after it Demonslayer Ranger who got his Favored Enemy progression broken...

So now I am close to despair and mostly playing martials, and trying to keep my build focused on Kingmaker's classes.

 

[Shadenuat]

mostly playing martials, and trying to keep my build focused on Kingmaker's classes

ah, an optimist.

 

[Delterius]

Because the game had already reached buggy powerlevel-ly singularity even without giving each and every class his own separate Mythic version of Medium Spellcasting progression starting from the late chapter 3?

Everyone already has medium spellcasting progression from their Mythics.

Way too crazy, each CHA-stacking double dipped Monkadin could be a 2/3 caster now.

A Monkadin lacks all the class features, feats, mythic feats, spellbook progression, level up stat boosts and equipment that a full caster will use throught the game. And they are already level 20 CL casters regardless of their choices. The endgame Monkadin Lich can already cast every single spell as well as a Level 20 Wizard. Why not have their DC spells be as useful as they were in the Beta? Be as useful as every other spell they can already cast?

Like sure, they could implement a lesser version of spellbook merging. It would still require that you be a full caster and wouldn't give you faster spell progression like Angel and Lich do. That way you can cast all the unique spells with decent DCs. But I don't see how broken it would be for everyone to be able to use their mythic spellbooks at baseline power. You still need to specialize if you want to beat this game's saving throws.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i completely forgot this existed, and hell it looks like i even already downloaded it. so what's the kkk? i want big parties, i want lots of classes and skills and builds, i want base building. i don't want forced failstates.

 

[Ghulgothas]

If you're not dedicated to the character-building fantasy and high-level combat gauntlet this game promises then you will be filtered in the first chapter.

 

[Cryomancer]

And beside it creates huge problem with casting stat choice for each Mythic Path. Choosing highest mental stat from INT/WIS/CHA? Way too crazy, each CHA-stacking double dipped Monkadin could be a 2/3 caster now. Bind some predetermined stat to Mythic Path specifically, Like INT to Lich and CHA to Azata? Sorc-based Liches and Azata-wizards will hate your guts for being punished for their alignment-fitting RP choices.

Make the mythic path scale with the highest attribute that makes sense. Eg -
Azata : CHA or INT
DEMON : STR, CON or INT
Lich : INT or WIS
Angel : WIS or CHA
TRICKSTER : DEX, CHA or INT

If you're not dedicated to the character-building fantasy and high-level combat gauntlet this game promises then you will be filtered in the first chapter.

This is not merely a high level. Is the epicest CRPG that I've played.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Sunri]

hahahahahahah

 

[volklore]

What you are talking about the mythic levels being better for casting than the stat is wrong because of the pace you get these levels and the spell levels you get for them. Your spell level is considered 2 for the ability you get at mythic level 3. So you are getting spells that are cast as level 2 spells with 3 bonus to it. They are equivalent to a level 10 character casting a level 2 ability with +3 stats. You have this bonus for nearly entirety of act 3, which is the longest act, and has enemies from anywhere from 10 to 18.

Case you are describing is impossible - Azata gets lvl 2 spells at rank 4, she could never cast them with "3 bonus to it". She gets at lvl 4 and that is analogue to 18 main spellcasting stat. So replacing casting stat with Mythic Rank we get "casting" stat in +3-10 range, analogue to 16-30 Int/Wis/Cha. It is more than 95% of builds, who are not spellcasting-focused could ever dream of.

And I agree that Mythic Spells are useless on Hard+. Fuck, half of my Bard's spellbook was useless on Unfair in P:K. Should we delete it too?

It's just stupid that Mythic spells you get from mythic level are all trash. Mythic levels even have baked in CL requirement, why not set the DC of mythic spells on the highest Spell level you can cast at this CL requirement (and put them in your base spellbook at that spell level - or in your base spellbook and allow heightening up to whatever SL you can cast). And then make them scale off your attribute modifier like any normal spell. All of these fancy spells and the only useable ones are buffs unless you play a spellbook merge mythic path. I was playing on my Azata caster the other day and while it is very strong and flavorful, I just thought to myself that I would be casting Weird and Wail about 3 CL ago if I picked lich. Now I am 2 CL away from them. And while Azata is probably really good late game, it was always about tempo. There is nothing approaching the power of spellbook merge in this game for full casters and gishes.