Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Jaedar]

Anyway, pointless rant over, but high-level D&D is still stupid.

I agree. I really hope they'll focus the DLCs on mid/low level. Something like level 3-12 or along those lines.

 

[Yosharian]

Jaedar supposedly there is a version that is equippable by companions

 

[ArchAngel]

I finished my Angel run. HE MAN and Battlecat conquered all opposition,

Spoiler

even Deskari which surprised me that I even got that option LOL after beating last boss lady.

Compared to Lich ending this is more interesting and bonus characters that travel the story with you are better. You cannot control them directly like you can your undead companions but at least they are not all mute. I even got a chance to diplomacy boss lady into not giving me that crazy second fight.

On this run I tried to do more with Crusade Management. This time I got all stats to 8 and waited a long long time to see what kind of events can happen. Funny shit, there is a bunch of interesting events

Spoiler

like getting best dwarven waraxe in the game or being able to recruit Alchemists regularly

that basically happen months after you could have already finished the game.. they completely fucked up Act 5 crusade parts. Also at one point two flags turn red and you cannot do anything about it so you now just keep losing morale every day without being able to do anything and basically you are forced to go finish the game.

As for story itself, I done many choices different and got different magical items this time. Like

Spoiler

if you save a guy in some earlier Act, you can meet him in Abyss city in a tavern and when you talk to him he gives you a really good +4 composite longbow.

Balance of Crusade combat parts is basically non existent, I hope they didn't give up on trying to improve it. It is hilariously easy and basically a time waster. Even if you don't abuse spell casters, like I had 5 different generals in this run as a test, you still own everything with very little loses. Infirmary shit needs a complete overhaul. It needs to be weaker and once it is used it slowly regenerates over multiple days, not instant for next battle. Also units that ended up in infirmary need to show up slowly in your army over days, not instantly. It all makes crusade combat needlesly easy and way too fast letting you clear the maps super fast and miss so many events that show up very slowly.
Another fix would be that on highest difficulty all static enemy armies on map slowly get stronger over time by getting more and more of the units they have in them so in combination with infirmary nerf you cannot clear the maps so fast and you actually need to use your brain to plot a best way to do it all.

EDIT:
Now time for my shapeshifter druid Azata or Drizzt Legend run.
No sure if I should make Drizzt Demonslayer 20/Fighter 20 or Hunter 20/Fighter 20.

 

[Grunker]

House at the the edge of time is better than the enigma under every aspect, encounter design, enemies, loot, and placement in the timeline.
HATEOT is a good dungeon, actually now that I think of it, Kingmaker dungeons were all pretty good.

Kingmaker’s dungeons are easily the game’s worst aspect. They’re mostly just floorplans with fights in them.

How anyone who has played through actually good dungeons like Watcher’s Keep, Durlag’s Tower or Spellhold can call the weak dungeons of Kingmaker good is beyond me.

 

[Jaedar]

House at the the edge of time is better than the enigma under every aspect, encounter design, enemies, loot, and placement in the timeline.
HATEOT is a good dungeon, actually now that I think of it, Kingmaker dungeons were all pretty good.

Kingmaker’s dungeons are easily the game’s worst aspect. They’re mostly just floorplans with fights in them.

How anyone who has played through actually good dungeons like Watcher’s Keep, Durlag’s Tower or Spellhold can call the weak dungeons of Kingmaker good is beyond me.

Wrath has some more elaborate ones. For example, the siege of drezen has you assault multiple layers of a keep, while the enemy has some light siege engines and archers attacking you from the higher levels. Multiple ways to progress, from scaling rooftops and jumping to the next tier, to finding ""secret"" routes, to just calling a battering ram from your army and defending it while demons try to counterattack. There's even 3 different entrypoints onto the map, depending on your previous choices. The enemy variety and encounter design is still somewhat lacking though, and it really hurts it that it just keeps going.

A lot of them are pretty basic floorplans with traps and fights, although most bigger maps will usually contain an environmental puzzle or two as well.

Imo the best part of kingmaker was exploring around the overworld, and finding properly designed "1 encounter maps". Sadly, wrath has fewer of these.

 

[Delterius]

People and demons alike repeatedly orgasm just by being in his general vicinity?

but thats just a normal day...?

 

[ga♥]

House at the the edge of time is better than the enigma under every aspect, encounter design, enemies, loot, and placement in the timeline.
HATEOT is a good dungeon, actually now that I think of it, Kingmaker dungeons were all pretty good.

Kingmaker’s dungeons are easily the game’s worst aspect. They’re mostly just floorplans with fights in them.

How anyone who has played through actually good dungeons like Watcher’s Keep, Durlag’s Tower or Spellhold can call the weak dungeons of Kingmaker good is beyond me.

Yeah well every dungeon is some floors with traps and fights in them, and possibly puzzles, so not sure what you didn't like in kingmaker in Vordakai tomb (exept the final fight which is a bit a let down) or the Troll dungeon.

Watcher's keep and Durlag are pretty great, but what makes them great are the superior forgotten realms lore compared to pathfinder, Watcher's keep for example has a really weak level, the Lum the mad machine one which is just a bunch of places/fights connected without much reasoning behind them.

Anyway my point is that Wrath has higher highs and lower lows compared to Kingmaker, some dungeon are pretty bad, something I didn't feel in Kingmaker.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Kingmaker’s dungeons are easily the game’s worst aspect. They’re mostly just floorplans with fights in them.

How anyone who has played through actually good dungeons like Watcher’s Keep, Durlag’s Tower or Spellhold can call the weak dungeons of Kingmaker good is beyond me.

Quoting a dlc dungeon from a game where you're either clearing fow from rts forest maps or solving "activity book for 4 year olds" mazes fighting against lvl40 demon of pathfinding, made me laugh.

Taking general picture, area design in KM is very solid for iso crpgs, it then got better in Varnhold and I'd say even better in Wrarth, although I've put in on hold like halfway through. Encounter design is the obvious issue, and I didn't notice any improvement in Wrath, unfortunately. It got slightly worse, if anything.

 

[Grunker]

Watcher's keep and Durlag are pretty great, but what makes them great are the superior forgotten realms lore compared to pathfinder

What makes them great is the mulit-leveled design where each level has a singular purpose, filled with inventive puzzle design, a multitude of enemies and interesting characters. None of which Kingmaker has. I like the game for many reasons, but I can't recall a single dungeon that did anything interesting. Varnhold tries but it's basically just a teleport puzzle in an otherwise completely vanilla dungeon.

 

[Delterius]

superior forgotten realms lore

No

you're comparing turd from different species

Durlag's Tower is a good dungeon. Simple as.

 

[ga♥]

superior forgotten realms lore

No

you're comparing turd from different species

Durlag's Tower is a good dungeon. Simple as.

So is the troll dungeon in kingmaker, now what?
And having to fight Demogorgon at the end of Watcher's keep surely added to the charm of the dungeon, so yes, lore has some weight.

 

[ga♥]

Watcher's keep and Durlag are pretty great, but what makes them great are the superior forgotten realms lore compared to pathfinder

What makes them great is the mulit-leveled design where each level has a singular purpose, filled with inventive puzzle design, a multitude of enemies and interesting characters. None of which Kingmaker has. I like the game for many reasons, but I can't recall a single dungeon that did anything interesting. Varnhold tries but it's basically just a teleport puzzle in an otherwise completely vanilla dungeon.

Lot of words but not clear examples. It's fine though, you like more Durlag's tower and Watcher's keep, and I am fine with it as I like them too.
(What inventive puzzle design is in watcher's keep? because I cannot remember anything exept the random generated maze level, and considering it a pinnacle of inventive puzzle seems a bit of a stretch).

On a sidenote aren't you a pillars of eternity fanboy? Or at least someone who loved pillars a lot...? So, I take you liked more dungeons in POE1/2 than Kingmaker?

 

[Delterius]

superior forgotten realms lore

No

you're comparing turd from different species

Durlag's Tower is a good dungeon. Simple as.

So is the troll dungeon in kingmaker, now what?

fun but not as good and Durlag's tbqh.

fact: forgotten realms is shit. so is pathfinder, which is pathfinder lite. greenwood even had a writing role in the river kingdoms.

 

[ga♥]

super truth: Lesser shitty version of the two.

 

[purupuru]

mulit-leveled design where each level has a singular purpose

Never liked that particular aspect of bg dungeons, feels theme-park-ish (though I must admit that this design principle is great for packing lots of fun content in limited space, you know, like a theme park). I prefer dungeons that are more coherent and feel like an actual location.
I do agree that bg dungeons have much better puzzles, they fit thematically in the dungeons and encourage you to read, think and observe, not often difficult but flavorful nonetheless. Whereas Kingmaker and (most) Wrath puzzles feel like they are copied straight out of some "video game design 101" book.

 

[Riel]

superior forgotten realms lore

No

you're comparing turd from different species

Durlag's Tower is a good dungeon. Simple as.

So is the troll dungeon in kingmaker, now what?
And having to fight Demogorgon at the end of Watcher's keep surely added to the charm of the dungeon, so yes, lore has some weight.

A lo better than that: Assault on Drezzen in WOTR.

 

[ga♥]

mulit-leveled design where each level has a singular purpose

Never liked that particular aspect of bg dungeons, feels theme-park-ish (though I must admit that this design principle is great for packing lots of fun content in limited space, you know, like a theme park). I prefer dungeons that are more coherent and feel like an actual location.
I do agree that bg dungeons have much better puzzles, they fit thematically in the dungeons and encourage you to read, think and observe, not often difficult but flavorful nonetheless. Whereas Kingmaker and (most) Wrath puzzles feel like they are copied straight out of some "video game design 101" book.

What kind of puzzles is everyone trying to refer to? Durlag's statues asking about what happened to Durlag? The 4 guardians?

Also "each level with a singular purpose" only applies to Watcher's keep so not really sure what is the point here since it is not a rule for every BG dungeon.

 

[ArchAngel]

I found both Durlag and Watchers a bore, best stuff in BG1 and Bg2 was exploring shit, not being stuck in one place forever. Being able to rush for Basilisks and enemy parties on that map beat anything in Durlags or Watchers

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Um.. the first big area in KM has:
- one yuge overland level and two yuge underground levels
- multiples connections and shortcuts between them, some of which need to be unlocked/earned
- two warring factions, you can support/fight/betray either of them
- quest you can solve with diplo and other skill checks
- multiple checks for different skills in general
- multiple optional mini-boss encounters, some of which are very difficult for the point you first encounter them at
- multiple secret areas, some of which hold very nice loot for the level you're at

The second big dungeon has a lot of the above plus: double boss where, again, diplo skills matter, even to the point where you can recruit one of them as an ally, decent riddle with very nice reward, a secret way to insta-defeat a miniboss.

The third biggish are between them, while not as big and not really a dungeon, still has a lot of the above and: option to approach either openly or via stealth, using diplo to dissuade boss's allies or turn them against him, killing different stuff quickly/silently to alter final encounter, consequence of previous actions where if you were diligent and made skill checks in previous location you had a chance to weaken the boss.

I can go on, but the general point is that the IE games I've played don't really compare to that. Which is the way it should be, considering the gulf of time. And I'm saying that as someone who genuinely loves a lot of locations in BG2 and IWD, but let's face it: it's mostly for the atmosphere and the visuals (as well as the phat loot), not some ingenious design.

The obvious issue is the encounter design, which is not as bad as IE games at their worst, but is rarely gr8 and nowhere near IE games at their best. The first big area in Varnhold was like the best of KM and best of BG2 put together and has bestowed a huge boner upon me, but no one thought it might be a good idea to follow up on that in Wrath, unfortunately.

 

[purupuru]

What kind of puzzles is everyone trying to refer to

For me it's more about what kinds of puzzles aren't there in the bg games (at least not as prevalent as they are in the Kingmaker): those super generic floor-switch/lever/math puzzles that could go in literally any video game of any genre with minimum adjustment. The bg games' puzzles are often more in line with the statue puzzle in Wrath's Grey Garrison: read, observe and think (some knowledge of the lore would help).

Also "each level with a singular purpose" only applies to Watcher's keep so not really sure what is the point here since it is not a rule for every BG dungeon.

Off the top of my head, Planar Sphere, Spellhold, and the Athkatla Temple District Sewers (as a whole) also gave me this impression. Though I admit this is rather subjective, and if you simply disagree I won't push the point.

 

[Nikanuur]

.

(that isometric) Pool of Radiance, wink wink.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The automated depths aside, the only dungeon I didn't care for was Armag's Tomb. The CYOA moments broke up some of the monotony, and I guess the fireball trap helped, but it was otherwise very bland and far too large. I autoattacked my way through the entire thing.

I didn't play kingmaker until the "its done version" was released, but I thought HatEoT was pretty decent. It had some good boss fights, tough enemies, and plenty to discover. The lantern mechanic was well established by then, so it wasn't complicated. This was a type of dingeon you might get in PnP. My only complaint was the "fog hub", where there was far too little area to move and too much overlap of the fog. The pathfinding and space constraints caused me to take an unintended cloud several times.

 

[Grotesque]

so... how buggy this game still is?

 

[Cryomancer]

so... how buggy this game still is?

A bit, is playable. Some streamers already finished in the "permadeath" mode.

 

[Nikanuur]

I'd say this game is a build-gasm RPG game (disregarding the bugs that would hopefully dissapear in time anyway). I won't say how I feel about WoTR regarding the dungeons, much has been discussed anyway. But do we have some general consensus, some guide-line game that can be considered having really good dungeon / exterior design? I can't think of one sadly. Unless we take things like Prey or System Shock 2 into the equation.