Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Nikanuur]

I joke not, this fanfic-worthy cringe is really in the game.

You do realise you are playing an Owlcat game right? Like, is any of this a surprise to you?

I think I understand better now, what you two are on about. And I agree. Some writing in romances and things emotional are straight-outta-Karen

 

[Daidre]

You do realise you are playing an Owlcat game right? Like, is any of this a surprise to you?

Most of this shit was contained within romance paths in Kingmaker. But Wrath was so incessantly barraging me with Arushalae's "Pale beautiful face", "Shining ruby eyes filled with tears", "delicate shaking fingers" and "tender shaking lips" each time I took her into the group, that my only desire after one full run with her as a constant party member was to drown constantly crying shaking bitch in some latrine.

I guess I am not a target audience.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I call it shitty writing that exists only for satisfying someone's wet dreams about big-tittied succubus.

I like me some big-tittied succubus. However, I like a succubus and not a walking sermon.

 

[Delterius]

i kinda hope the next game doesn't have any mythic stuff to it. i kinda miss the freedom of just playing whatever class i want with no care for which mythic synergizes well with which class.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Delterius Aren't the only big synergies Angel / divine casters and Lich / arcane casters? The rest can be played freely, no?

 

[Jaedar]

Regarding Aru:
I think if you only use her for her companion quests, and otherwise leave her in base, her character development does seem very forced. If you take her on quests, and especially do the romance stuff you get to see her struggle a lot more, and even have to talk her down from giving up a few times. It is a pretty traditional and naively romantic romance though. Aru's ultimate dream is literally

Spoiler

Having a cottage out in the woods and baking for her friends/husbando.

This game has received some flak on the codex for SJWism, but I will submit Aru's tale of redemption as basically being a story about how even wanton sluts can become good tradwives if they try... (it's kind of a stretch, but so is a lot of the SJW accusations).

As for divine intervention:
It's stated at several points in the game that demons don't dream. Not just in the sense of not sleep, but in the sense of "not having positive visions and hopes for the future". There's even that thing Aru says that before her encounter with Desna, she thought dreams were mortals lying to themselves, because the concept of hoping for a better tomorrow and not just lusting after instant gratification was so utterly alien. Her encounter with desna allowed her to understand what dreams were and empathize with her victims. After

Spoiler

she acquires a dream of her own, desna once again intervenes to make it easier for her. As I see it Arus philosophical journey of self betterment was over, and Desna merely blesses her to make it as happy

an ending as can be (that being the chaotic good way: redemption and happy endings for all, even those that don't deserve it).

Aru is not as cool as FFG, but it is as always deeply unfair to compare things to PS:T and see it as a takedown argument when they fall short. That's always what was going to happen when you compare a 'not best written RPG of all time' to the best written RPG of all time.

My biggest issue with Aru is that her in game model is super ugly and animu, and her portrait is just barely acceptable.

 

[Delterius]

Delterius Aren't the only big synergies Angel / divine casters and Lich / arcane casters? The rest can be played freely, no?

eh somewhat freely. from what i understand azatas are great casters and less great melee characters, what with their martial bonuses being morale bonuses. there's some opportunity loss with being a trickster and not being a melee character, though it used to be worse. there's some loss in being a demon and not being a caster. angels and liches are ditto.

 

[Ghulgothas]

The final bit of Aru's Redemption quest can be rendered unintentionally funny if you're evil and already killed or scared off all the good characters.

"Here, in my dreamscape, I envision a perfect future. Of... me! in a home! Surrounded by all my friends, who mean the world to me...!"

Friends as in: the decrepit Lich, sitting at the head of a dinner table and the Skeleton Champion propped up next to the fireplace, occupying a wholly empty room.

And Ember was there too I guess...

 

[Humbaba]

Delterius Aren't the only big synergies Angel / divine casters and Lich / arcane casters? The rest can be played freely, no?

eh somewhat freely. from what i understand azatas are great casters and less great melee characters, what with their martial bonuses being morale bonuses. there's some opportunity loss with being a trickster and not being a melee character. there's some loss in being a demon and not being a caster. angels and liches are ditto.

Azata supersonic speed synergises very well with my bloodrager tbh.

Aru is not as cool as FFG, but it is as always deeply unfair to compare things to PS:T and see it as a takedown argument when they fall short. That's always what was going to happen when you compare a 'not best written RPG of all time' to the best written RPG of all time.

My biggest issue with Aru is that her in game model is super ugly and animu, and her portrait is just barely acceptable.

Grace is also basically at the end of her arc when you meet her, I mean she is a well established business owner. Her character is not about her development as much as it is what she represents in relation to TNO's arc. Every companion in PST represents one kind of Torment (c) that is also shared by TNO in one way or another. Completely different from Arushalae and Wrathfinder's plot of course.

Yeah I suppose Aru's model isn't great but that's a technical matter.

 

[Jaedar]

Grace is also basically at the end of her arc when you meet her, I mean she is a well established business owner. Her character is not about her development as much as it is what she represents in relation to TNO's arc. Every companion in PST represents one kind of Torment (c) that is also shared by TNO in one way or another. Completely different from Arushalae and Wrathfinder's plot of course.

Yeah. In a way you could say Desnas blessing is to ensure Aru won't end up as grace. Actually saved, instead of eternally suffering (but at peace with it).

Most of this shit was contained within romance paths in Kingmaker. But Wrath was so incessantly barraging me with Arushalae's "Pale beautiful face", "Shining ruby eyes filled with tears", "delicate shaking fingers" and "tender shaking lips" each time I took her in the group, that my only desire after one full run with her as a constant party member was to drown constantly crying shaking bitch in some latrine.

Yeah, this is kinda the problem with succubi, slaaneshi daemons, and those types of entities. The concept of the entity is that they brainfuck all mortals around them to see them as 10 would out of 10 fuck, regardless of said mortals normal preferences. That's hard to do well in any kind of roleplaying setting though, because the player is not affected, which can make the whole thing a bit cringey. So you either roll with it and get reminded of the divide between player and character, or reject it and end up alienated. And of course if the writing isn't always great (and wroffs isn't), that really doesn't help.

i kinda hope the next game doesn't have any mythic stuff to it. i kinda miss the freedom of just playing whatever class i want with no care for which mythic synergizes well with which class.

When it comes to the combat aspect of mythic paths, I can take it or leave it. But I really like the narrative c&c and theming that they bring.

 

[Humbaba]

Mythic powers are here to even the playing field in a campaign populated almost exclusively by usually high level enemies right from the beginning. Kingmaker didn't have em because it had a very conventional difficulty curve. I don't think that mythic paths are gonna become like a new standard. Unless there's other pathfinder modules that are similar to wotr but I wouldn't know, I don't play pnp.

 

[mondblut]

That's hard to do well in any kind of roleplaying setting though, because the player is not affected

Or you could use something like this:

instead of this:

And let the player's hormones do the job. Show, don't tell, eh?

Somehow VTMB didn't need cringeworthy purple prose to convice us that we REALLY want to fuck Jeanette and VV. Strange how it works...

 

[Daidre]

Friends, as in: the decrepit Lich, sitting at the head of a dinner table, the Skeleton Champion propped up next to the fireplace, occupying a wholly empty room. And Ember too I guess...

Damn, and I thought that my version Arushalae's 'ideal' future, starring as BFF my CE Trickster who never said nice word to her was funny) I guess this succubus really has a huge issues with deciphering people's feelings toward her.


Thing that annoys me most about Arue's quest is how it always railroads into her happy ending if you miss one and only chance to corrupt her in chapter 4. Because no matter what you say or do in her finale quest (or anywhere else in her questline) she always forgiven and showered in butterflies and screams how happy she will be no matter what.

And it robs story of any tension, when you know that she has absolutely no chance of failure as long as you complete her line and you never see her doing anything really bad on camera. And without even small relapse or any real conflict her endless whining about fighting her nature is just... whining.

And imho, it is really stupid that some butterfly deity forgives succubus for centuries of horrible murderape crimes, committed against people that have nothing to do with that deity, just because said succubus feels sad about it now. Because no matter how many tears she'll cry over her victims, it won't bring them back. For me it is just pathetic hippie parody of a justice and I can't do anything about it in-game. I can't even kill Arushelae without corrupting her - Desna Author always teleports hers precious Mary Sue away when player tries to attack her.

And it looks especially shitty next to other companion's quests that often have not one but several bad endings depending on player's decisions.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Friends as in: the decrepit Lich, sitting at the head of a dinner table and the Skeleton Champion propped up next to the fireplace, occupying a wholly empty room.

I think it's better to have several clones of one friend.

 

[Jaedar]

And imho, it is really stupid that some butterfly deity forgives succubus for centuries of horrible murderape crimes, committed against people that have nothing to do with that deity, just because said succubus feels sad about it now. Because no matter how many tears she'll cry over her victims, it won't bring them back. For me it is just pathetic hippie parody of a justice and I can't do anything about it in-game. I can't even kill Arushelae without corrupting her - Desna Author always teleports her precious Mary Sue away when player tries to attack her.

Pretty sure Aru is killable in act4 and beyond, it's only in act3 she has butterfly plot armor.

As for forgiving her, as long as her regret is genuine: This is the chaotic good way. Join us, we have cookies.

Or you could use something like this:

You're not wrong (as I pointed out, Arus portrait is bad, and her in game model is worse), but I am slightly surprised mr "there is only me and my computer, and neither of us cares" is joining the discussion on player/character separation

Thing that annoys me most about Arue's quest is how it always railroads into her happy ending if you miss one and only chance to corrupt her in chapter 4. Because no matter what you say or do in her finale quest (or anywhere else in her questline) she always forgiven and showered in butterflies and screams how happy she will be no matter what.

That happened on my lich playthrough. I really tried otherwise, but I missed/discarded that one option, so she wound up getting the happy ending. I don't know how hard/easy it is to get the other endings on the other characters, but I agree that the guaranteed outcome does cheapen it a bit (in the same way that the worldwound being guaranteed to become solved cheapens the main story).

 

[ArchAngel]

She is basically an avatar of this creature.

I think you overshooting with Gaining Power from Empyreal Lord = Avatar. We have Galfrey who is literal Chosen of the Major Deity (way, way above any Empyreal Lord), and we can see how... far it got her powerlevel wise.

And beside, we know where most of Ember's outstanding power comes from - Seelah, for example, ponders after Gray Garrison that she got more power from one Mythic level up than most of the paladins see in their lifetime. Same with Ember who was nice and everything before, but started to fuck with people's brains on completely new scale after Drezen was taken.

Spoiler

So less super-Andoletta and more mommy Areelu with power, stolen from Demon Lords.

I disagree. She got all powerful because as she leveled up she was able to project more power from the Empyreal Lord.. mythic powers are not giving anyone else anything special in their quest.
And Galfrey is just a powerful paladin, she has 0 extra abilities. Even her long life is due to magical potions (basically due to her earthly status). For example Elminster has eternal life due to being a chosen of Mystra.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Also, I think the best ending for Arueshalae is the Ascension in the corrupted form. To meet Desna personally and stare into her/his/its eyes.

 

[mondblut]

You're not wrong (as I pointed out, Arus portrait is bad, and her in game model is worse), but I am slightly surprised mr "there is only me and my computer, and neither of us cares" is joining the discussion on player/character separation

Oh, that is what you were discussing. I thought it's about wokecat promoting uglies as pinnacles of feminine beauty all over again

My point still stands, though. You wanna present the hottiest most prettiest female character evah in your game? Delete your Plain Jane artwork and hire a top shelf pornstar to model as one.

 

[Daidre]

in the same way that the worldwound being guaranteed to become solved cheapens the main story

I do not think it is always the case, Afaik:
careful, spoilers for several Mythic paths

Spoiler

Swarm never closes Worldwound and just sits around it being menace until it kills him.
Trickster opens the second hole into the upper planes and just enjoys the show.
Demon becomes a Demon Lord with a Worldwound working as a portal into his own Abyssal Domain and starts even bigger war.

 

[Whisper]

You do realise you are playing an Owlcat game right? Like, is any of this a surprise to you?

Most of this shit was contained within romance paths in Kingmaker. But Wrath was so incessantly barraging me with Arushalae's "Pale beautiful face", "Shining ruby eyes filled with tears", "delicate shaking fingers" and "tender shaking lips" each time I took her into the group, that my only desire after one full run with her as a constant party member was to drown constantly crying shaking bitch in some latrine.

I guess I am not a target audience.

You forgot "shy smile". Which she does in every second dialogue.

 

[Humbaba]

Yes but let us go back to talking about how cool my build is.

Bloodrager primalist is completely busted. He has it all: high bab, high hp, high dmg, high crit chance, high AC you name it. Once I get lethal accuracy I can crank up my crit modifier to x4. And supersonic speed just made him worse. Just slapped the druid lich at wintersun in like 30 seconds. Fight was over so quick I had to check the combat log to even find out what happened. Not even the horrors of Blackwater can stop this guy. Beat the lava ring fight first try, and I forgot guarded hearth too.

I am also glad to report that Early Sunset actually has stopped talking sense and now he is just a big naysayer who will not even let mimics join because they scare his bitch ass. Devil path is cancelled.

 

[Sharpedge]

My problem with Ember has to do with verisimilitude. On multiple levels. For the first level, there is the juxtaposition between Ember's conversions and Arueshalae (who I also have problems with, but for different reasons). Arueshalae took the intervention of a god to redeem and her redemption is a slow, difficult process. Ember's "redemptions" (when you follow that part of her quest) are by comparison much swifter and are not depicted as being anywhere near as personally daunting. Even if you are to account for the 6 month time wait between when you leave the Nocticula's city to go fight Hepzamirah and when you spoke to the citizens of the abyss, a redemption that swift with no further encouragement from Ember is, in my mind, immersion ruining. Added to that, demons are supposed to be a literal embodiment of evil. A demon choosing to change their nature should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Whilst true, relative to the total number of existing demons, the number redeemed is still "low," all of this redemption happening in such a short period of time does seem to be a bit implausible. Her redeeming Nocticula takes the breaking of immersion even further. In my opinion, a better outcome for Ember's quest, with the perspective of trying to maintain some degree of realism, would be for her to try to redeem them and ultimately fail, regardless of whether you encourage her or belittle her. The difference, between the two outcomes should come from personal character development for Ember, not from demons magically being redeemed. The evil outcome can remain as is, the good outcome however, should have you encourage her to keep trying, where she resolves to continue on with her hope in spite of her failures. Having her "learn" to persevere through failure would, in my opinion, be a much better quest outcome.

You just assume that every demon converted by Ember is at the stage of Arushalae post-redemption, when you could more reasonably assume that they are at the stage of Arushalae when you first find her. Don't forget at that point in time, Aru's been in the redemption arc for in-universe years. Who's to say that every Emberite does not also have years of social work ahead of them?

My point is that demons are supposed to be the literal embodiment of evil. They are akin to a natural disaster. A demon starting to seek redemption is as likely as a tropical cyclone deciding to help undo the damage it has done to a city it has gone through. Whilst I can see direct divine intervention (Arueshalae+Desna) leading to change, I find it highly implausible that Ember would be capable of it. Yes, even with her Empyreal Lord behind her.

 

[ArchAngel]

My problem with Ember has to do with verisimilitude. On multiple levels. For the first level, there is the juxtaposition between Ember's conversions and Arueshalae (who I also have problems with, but for different reasons). Arueshalae took the intervention of a god to redeem and her redemption is a slow, difficult process. Ember's "redemptions" (when you follow that part of her quest) are by comparison much swifter and are not depicted as being anywhere near as personally daunting. Even if you are to account for the 6 month time wait between when you leave the Nocticula's city to go fight Hepzamirah and when you spoke to the citizens of the abyss, a redemption that swift with no further encouragement from Ember is, in my mind, immersion ruining. Added to that, demons are supposed to be a literal embodiment of evil. A demon choosing to change their nature should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Whilst true, relative to the total number of existing demons, the number redeemed is still "low," all of this redemption happening in such a short period of time does seem to be a bit implausible. Her redeeming Nocticula takes the breaking of immersion even further. In my opinion, a better outcome for Ember's quest, with the perspective of trying to maintain some degree of realism, would be for her to try to redeem them and ultimately fail, regardless of whether you encourage her or belittle her. The difference, between the two outcomes should come from personal character development for Ember, not from demons magically being redeemed. The evil outcome can remain as is, the good outcome however, should have you encourage her to keep trying, where she resolves to continue on with her hope in spite of her failures. Having her "learn" to persevere through failure would, in my opinion, be a much better quest outcome.

You just assume that every demon converted by Ember is at the stage of Arushalae post-redemption, when you could more reasonably assume that they are at the stage of Arushalae when you first find her. Don't forget at that point in time, Aru's been in the redemption arc for in-universe years. Who's to say that every Emberite does not also have years of social work ahead of them?

My point is that demons are supposed to be the literal embodiment of evil. They are akin to a natural disaster. A demon starting to seek redemption is as likely as a tropical cyclone deciding to help undo the damage it has done to a city it has gone through. Whilst I can see direct divine intervention (Arueshalae+Desna) leading to change, I find it highly implausible that Ember would be capable of it. Yes, even with her Empyreal Lord behind her.

So are Angels but fallen ones are even part of our RL religion...

 

[Nikanuur]

My point is that demons are supposed to be the literal embodiment of evil. They are akin to a natural disaster. A demon starting to seek redemption is as likely as a tropical cyclone deciding to help undo the damage it has done to a city it has gone through. Whilst I can see direct divine intervention (Arueshalae+Desna) leading to change, I find it highly implausible that Ember would be capable of it. Yes, even with her Empyreal Lord behind her.

First and foremost, they are consciouss beings. Any consciouss being learns soon enough the meaning of pain, fulfilled desire/need, that everybody is the same in this, and the basic morality that lies therein. How does the consciouss being choose to approach the matter is another thing.

 

[Daidre]

First and foremost, they are consciouss beings. Any consciouss being learns soon enough the meaning of pain, fulfilled desire/need, that everybody is the same in this and the basic morality that lies therein. How such the consciouss being chooses to approach the matter is another thing.

We are told many, many times over the course of the game that demons, especially lower ones, are slaves of their own nature.

We can even see how Arushelae, after abandoning her redemption quest and loosing Desna's blessing does instant 180 personality turn and goes back to being unrepentant murderer. She still remembers perfectly well everything she learned and discovered and all relationships she built with other party members while in 'good' mode but she does not care a bit. It is not how mortals work. Their may become more selfless/selfish over the course of their live, get disappointed in their ideals or choose to pursue a different one, but they can't turn into completely different person with one conscious decision.