Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[LannTheStupid]

from what i understand ember doesn't really reach into anybody who didn't already have something she could work with

If you have enough time and computing power you can crack any cipher.

If you have enough time and power tools you can open any safe.

If you have enough time and divine power you can "work with" anyone.

 

[Daidre]

from what i understand ember doesn't really reach into anybody who didn't already have something she could work with

What about demons? Desna, literal goddess, needed direct magical interference, borderline mindrape, to give Arushalae at least some chance of redemption ("awakened the memories of sinful souls she was made of").
And in the end of her quest:

Spoiler

She still needs second divine miracle to clean her mind from succubi murderape impulses to function properly in mortal world.

It is really difficult to belief that Ember achieved same results, en masse, with just some pretty words, all while being powerful spellcaster with some Mythic levels up her belt. Because for me, her miraculous redemptions look more like some failed will saves against compulsion.

 

[Efe]

she starts preaching atheism and forgets what shes saying mid sentence.
Its definitely a stretch to call her sane or claim she does it on purpose when you consider she keeps doing it in front of a paladin

what happens to evil arue when she ascends?

 

[Humbaba]

ITT atheist unable to grasp subtlety.

 

[Humbaba]

from what i understand ember doesn't really reach into anybody who didn't already have something she could work with

Like demons who, as everyone knows, are really pure at heart.

 

[Delterius]

Arushalae

If arue and nocticula could stop being chaotic evil on their own then the chosen prophet of a higher up in heaven doesn't have to brainwash demons. They just need to preach to the right ones. Or to all of them until the right ones decide being a demon sucks.

 

[Daidre]

If arue and nocticula could stop being chaotic evil on their own then the chosen prophet of a higher up in heaven doesn't have to brainwash demons.

But Arushalae had not stopped being CE by her choice. Fall-from-Grace did it on her own with discipline and introspection, but Arushalae is so pathetic that she needed ancient goddess to magically remove bad thoughts from her head. And since her "ascension" started from the same goddess, her whole redemption arc - is farce.

 

[The_Mask]

I don't know... back when I read about the Blood War, the idea of LE vs CE was the comparison between calculated, methodical evil vs passionate, emotional evil.

By that logic I expand that Fall-From-Grace "ascended", or changed herself, by being more methodical. Where Arushalae seems to be an emotional journey.

It wasn't as obvious to me that Lady Fortuna just snapped her fingers, and her evil thoughts went away. It felt just that she gained empathy, and perspective. Which would make sense, since - generally - women are much more well versed in the arts of empathy, no?

 

[Delterius]

If arue and nocticula could stop being chaotic evil on their own then the chosen prophet of a higher up in heaven doesn't have to brainwash demons.

But Arushalae had not stopped being CE by her choice. Fall-from-Grace did it on her own with discipline and introspection, but Arushalae is so pathetic that she needed ancient goddess to magically remove bad thoughts from her head. And since her "ascension" started from the same goddess, her whole redemption arc - is farce.

Relying on God is not pathetic unless you are also adding every single paladin and cleric to that list.

 

[Humbaba]

I don't know... back when I read about the Blood War, the idea of LE vs CE was the comparison between calculated, methodical evil vs passionate, emotional evil.

By that logic I expand that Fall-From-Grace "ascended", or changed herself, by being more methodical. Where Arushalae seems to be an emotional journey.

It wasn't as obvious to me that Lady Fortuna just snapped her fingers, and her evil thoughts went away. It felt just that she gained empathy, and perspective. Which would make sense, since - generally - women are much more well versed in the arts of empathy, no?

You're asking communists to understand empathy here. Nevermind the fact that Desna erasing bad thoughts from Aru's brain is headcanon anyway and nowhere suggested in-game. In fact Aru EXPLICITLY STILL HAS EVIL INSTINCTS by her own admission but now she's willing to keep herself in check. She even puts herself literally in horny jail if you romance her.

Daidre were you fucking asleep during half the game or are you really just that fucking illiterate?

 

[LannTheStupid]

Why there is no war between LG and CG? It is like Germany versus France in WW-1.

 

[Daidre]

Daidre were you fucking asleep during half the game or are you really just that fucking illiterate?

I am talking about final of her personal quest.

Spoiler

Arueshalae's slender body is bathed in a kaleidoscope of colors, and for a moment, she is completely surrounded by hundreds of fluttering blue butterflies. She stares at you with shining eyes.
"Goddess... What is going on? What's happening to me?\"",
"I don't know. But I can feel that everything has changed. Myself, you... Everything in the world. Oh, goddess... This is so beautiful. I had no idea that the world could be so beautiful!"
"I've never felt better! Everything that I hated about myself is... gone. I look at you, and I don't feel hunger. I don't want to kill. All the unholy cravings I experienced as a demon — they're all gone. Now I just want to be happy. To live... and to love."
"Arueshalae looks down at her slender fingers. Slowly, apprehensively, she reaches out to touch you. You feel the warmth of her soft skin as she gently strokes your hand."No. I am not a monster anymore. Not a predator, not a weapon... Just a woman, like any other female mortal.\"",
"I have changed. I can feel it. The Abyss has relinquished its hold on me. I... I am not a monster anymore! Oh, Desna, this is so wonderful!"",

When Desna purged her the second time.

Nevermind the fact that Desna erasing bad thoughts from Aru's brain is headcanon anyway and nowhere suggested in-game.

Right in the game

Spoiler

I've never felt better! Everything that I hated about myself is... gone. I look at you, and I don't feel hunger. I don't want to kill. All the unholy cravings I experienced as a demon — they're all gone.

The transformation is complete. The demon is no longer a demon. The former succubus has been forgiven by the goddess and cleansed of all her past sins. You watch as Arueshalae's criminal aura fades away.

 

[ga♥]

Arueshalae was created by Amber Scott.

 

[Sharpedge]

My problem with Ember has to do with verisimilitude. On multiple levels. For the first level, there is the juxtaposition between Ember's conversions and Arueshalae (who I also have problems with, but for different reasons). Arueshalae took the intervention of a god to redeem and her redemption is a slow, difficult process. Ember's "redemptions" (when you follow that part of her quest) are by comparison much swifter and are not depicted as being anywhere near as personally daunting. Even if you are to account for the 6 month time wait between when you leave the Nocticula's city to go fight Hepzamirah and when you spoke to the citizens of the abyss, a redemption that swift with no further encouragement from Ember is, in my mind, immersion ruining. Added to that, demons are supposed to be a literal embodiment of evil. A demon choosing to change their nature should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Whilst true, relative to the total number of existing demons, the number redeemed is still "low," all of this redemption happening in such a short period of time does seem to be a bit implausible. Her redeeming Nocticula takes the breaking of immersion even further. In my opinion, a better outcome for Ember's quest, with the perspective of trying to maintain some degree of realism, would be for her to try to redeem them and ultimately fail, regardless of whether you encourage her or belittle her. The difference, between the two outcomes should come from personal character development for Ember, not from demons magically being redeemed. The evil outcome can remain as is, the good outcome however, should have you encourage her to keep trying, where she resolves to continue on with her hope in spite of her failures. Having her "learn" to persevere through failure would, in my opinion, be a much better quest outcome.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

Afaik, Nocticula's redemption was already in the works (part of the canon?) and Ember just helped. The most unrealistic part about Ember is that my LG paladin will give her an AK and send her to the frontlines of fantasy Liberia to toast some demons.

 

[Nikanuur]

Afaik, Nocticula's redemption was already in the works (part of the canon?) and Ember just helped. The most unrealistic part about Ember is that my LG paladin will give her an AK and send her to the frontlines of fantasy Liberia to toast some demons.

Are you talking about our lord and master of the touch attack combat, the Hellfire ray?

 

[ArchAngel]

My problem with Ember has to do with verisimilitude. On multiple levels. For the first level, there is the juxtaposition between Ember's conversions and Arueshalae (who I also have problems with, but for different reasons). Arueshalae took the intervention of a god to redeem and her redemption is a slow, difficult process. Ember's "redemptions" (when you follow that part of her quest) are by comparison much swifter and are not depicted as being anywhere near as personally daunting. Even if you are to account for the 6 month time wait between when you leave the Nocticula's city to go fight Hepzamirah and when you spoke to the citizens of the abyss, a redemption that swift with no further encouragement from Ember is, in my mind, immersion ruining. Added to that, demons are supposed to be a literal embodiment of evil. A demon choosing to change their nature should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Whilst true, relative to the total number of existing demons, the number redeemed is still "low," all of this redemption happening in such a short period of time does seem to be a bit implausible. Her redeeming Nocticula takes the breaking of immersion even further. In my opinion, a better outcome for Ember's quest, with the perspective of trying to maintain some degree of realism, would be for her to try to redeem them and ultimately fail, regardless of whether you encourage her or belittle her. The difference, between the two outcomes should come from personal character development for Ember, not from demons magically being redeemed. The evil outcome can remain as is, the good outcome however, should have you encourage her to keep trying, where she resolves to continue on with her hope in spite of her failures. Having her "learn" to persevere through failure would, in my opinion, be a much better quest outcome.

Ember does not change people by power of her love or shit. Her Raven is a connection to major Lord in Elysium. LG version of Archdemons or Archdevils. She is basically an avatar of this creature.
EDIT: This is the Lord: https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Andoletta

EDIT: To the NO fag:

"Some gain power through study, some through devotion, others through blood, but the witch gains power from her communion with the unknown. Generally feared and misunderstood, the witch draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power. Communing with that source and using her familiar as a conduit, the witch gains not only a host of spells, but also a number of strange abilities known as hexes. As a witch grows in power, she might learn about the source of her magic, but some remain blissfully unaware. Some are even fearful of what that source might be, or where its true purposes lie."

 

[Daidre]

She is basically an avatar of this creature.

I think you overshooting with Gaining Power from Empyreal Lord = Avatar. We have Galfrey who is literal Chosen of the Major Deity (way, way above any Empyreal Lord), and we can see how... far it got her powerlevel wise.

And beside, we know where most of Ember's outstanding power comes from - Seelah, for example, ponders after Gray Garrison that she got more power from one Mythic level up than most of the paladins see in their lifetime. Same with Ember who was nice and everything before, but started to fuck with people's brains on completely new scale after Drezen was taken.

Spoiler

So less super-Andoletta and more mommy Areelu with power, stolen from Demon Lords.

 

[Delterius]

Ember's storyline is not about power levels. It is about her character

 

[Humbaba]

Daidre were you fucking asleep during half the game or are you really just that fucking illiterate?

I am talking about final of her personal quest.

Spoiler

Arueshalae's slender body is bathed in a kaleidoscope of colors, and for a moment, she is completely surrounded by hundreds of fluttering blue butterflies. She stares at you with shining eyes.
"Goddess... What is going on? What's happening to me?\"",
"I don't know. But I can feel that everything has changed. Myself, you... Everything in the world. Oh, goddess... This is so beautiful. I had no idea that the world could be so beautiful!"
"I've never felt better! Everything that I hated about myself is... gone. I look at you, and I don't feel hunger. I don't want to kill. All the unholy cravings I experienced as a demon — they're all gone. Now I just want to be happy. To live... and to love."
"Arueshalae looks down at her slender fingers. Slowly, apprehensively, she reaches out to touch you. You feel the warmth of her soft skin as she gently strokes your hand."No. I am not a monster anymore. Not a predator, not a weapon... Just a woman, like any other female mortal.\"",
"I have changed. I can feel it. The Abyss has relinquished its hold on me. I... I am not a monster anymore! Oh, Desna, this is so wonderful!"",

When Desna purged her the second time.

Nevermind the fact that Desna erasing bad thoughts from Aru's brain is headcanon anyway and nowhere suggested in-game.

Right in the game

Spoiler

I've never felt better! Everything that I hated about myself is... gone. I look at you, and I don't feel hunger. I don't want to kill. All the unholy cravings I experienced as a demon — they're all gone.

The transformation is complete. The demon is no longer a demon. The former succubus has been forgiven by the goddess and cleansed of all her past sins. You watch as Arueshalae's criminal aura fades away.

By quoting the exact same passage and passing it off as two different incidents you have revealed your unparalleled stupidity. Fact remains that Desna purged Aru exactly once AFTER you help her atone for all her bullshit, not before and not without merit. You are lying when you say Desna purged her twice. Fucking hell, have you ever heard of an arc? Ever read a book? Watched a movie? Been to the theatre? Seriously stop posting you fucking peasant.

 

[ga♥]

Ember was created by the genius of Mishulin, you should not try to understand what your simple human brains cannot. Just be grateful he gifted us with his creation.

 

[Humbaba]

My problem with Ember has to do with verisimilitude. On multiple levels. For the first level, there is the juxtaposition between Ember's conversions and Arueshalae (who I also have problems with, but for different reasons). Arueshalae took the intervention of a god to redeem and her redemption is a slow, difficult process. Ember's "redemptions" (when you follow that part of her quest) are by comparison much swifter and are not depicted as being anywhere near as personally daunting. Even if you are to account for the 6 month time wait between when you leave the Nocticula's city to go fight Hepzamirah and when you spoke to the citizens of the abyss, a redemption that swift with no further encouragement from Ember is, in my mind, immersion ruining. Added to that, demons are supposed to be a literal embodiment of evil. A demon choosing to change their nature should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Whilst true, relative to the total number of existing demons, the number redeemed is still "low," all of this redemption happening in such a short period of time does seem to be a bit implausible. Her redeeming Nocticula takes the breaking of immersion even further. In my opinion, a better outcome for Ember's quest, with the perspective of trying to maintain some degree of realism, would be for her to try to redeem them and ultimately fail, regardless of whether you encourage her or belittle her. The difference, between the two outcomes should come from personal character development for Ember, not from demons magically being redeemed. The evil outcome can remain as is, the good outcome however, should have you encourage her to keep trying, where she resolves to continue on with her hope in spite of her failures. Having her "learn" to persevere through failure would, in my opinion, be a much better quest outcome.

You just assume that every demon converted by Ember is at the stage of Arushalae post-redemption, when you could more reasonably assume that they are at the stage of Arushalae when you first find her. Don't forget at that point in time, Aru's been in the redemption arc for in-universe years. Who's to say that every Emberite does not also have years of social work ahead of them?

 

[Nikanuur]

Btw do you also experience buckets of bugs at the Act IV? I've never faced more than a seldom bug prior to it, but now it's every odd fight. No mods installed. Now party members happen to be missing from the fights, sometimes they are stuck in "can't move can't attack" without any debuffs ofc - they just can't do anything, clicking a button or attack greys out everything, sometimes the party members are placed two layers under the fight unable to reach it, sometimes they have the path to their target shown as "away from the target" and they can't reach nor attack. Wtf is going on.

 

[Humbaba]

Btw do you also experience buckets of bugs at the Act IV? I've never faced more than a seldom bug prior to it, but now it's every odd fight. No mods installed. Now party members happen to be missing from the fights, sometimes they are stuck in "can't move can't attack" without any debuffs ofc - they just can't do anything, clicking a button or attack greys out everything, sometimes the party members are placed two layers under the fight unable to reach it, sometimes they have the path to their target shown as "away from the target" and they can't reach nor attack. Wtf is going on.

Haven't gotten there yet on my current playthrough and now you've scared me.

 

[Nikanuur]

Btw do you also experience buckets of bugs at the Act IV? I've never faced more than a seldom bug prior to it, but now it's every odd fight. No mods installed. Now party members happen to be missing from the fights, sometimes they are stuck in "can't move can't attack" without any debuffs ofc - they just can't do anything, clicking a button or attack greys out everything, sometimes the party members are placed two layers under the fight unable to reach it, sometimes they have the path to their target shown as "away from the target" and they can't reach nor attack. Wtf is going on.

Haven't gotten there yet on my current playthrough and now you've scared me.

It has really started just recently. I've been experiencing some of the said issues occasionally. Mostly Seelah was unable to do anything - all options were available (attack, spells etc.), but clicking anything greyed out everything and the fight became stuck. Switching to real-time and back to turn-based quickly sometimes helped to unstuck her. Now even this doesn't work. And the issues are now appearing very often, like, really every odd fight I have to fight not only the demons :D Phew, good thing I am about to finish the demon town.