Personally, I think it's now safe to say Disco Elysium is better than Planescape: Torment.

[Zed Duke of Banville]

How is it not an RPG? Everything you do is decided by die rolls, and they all are dependent on your skills. You have a limited amount of skill points which you get on leveling, so you can't do it all.

Disco Elysium has neither combat nor exploration, and therefore is missing two of the three fundamental components (or sets of components) of the RPG genre. It does borrow from RPGs character customization, in the form of attributes/skills that are utilized by the game, and character progression, in the form of experience that allows the player-character to gain levels and thereby increase said attributes/skills. However, vast numbers of computer games from various genres borrow these same elements. Meanwhile, the closest attempt to combat is a structured series of exposition with a few die rolls, and the only "exploration" consists of moving the player-character around a relatively small area.

Though Disco Elysium isn't an adventure game, either, as in particular it lacks the puzzles that are vital to the adventure genre. Really, it's a digitized CYOA or gamebook.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

Disco Elysium has to be among the first games to really outdo the classics thanks largely to its fantastic writing. The way I see it, it used the foundations built by games from the past to finally step above it's predecessors and become something unique unto itself.
While Planescape: Torment is still a good game, it's age has caught up to it and allowed new games to use it as a stepping stone to reach new heightens in writing and gameplay. It feels that we've reach a point where new projects will slowly began to outdo some of the long-held staples, and lead the way for a new generation of game developers who have a better understanding of the medium than developers from the past.

It's akin to The Beatles improving upon the sound of the Beach Boys to create something entirely new. In this case, Disco Elysium is The Beatles improving upon the ideas brought up by The Beach Boys (Planescape: Torment); both very good, but one is so clearly better than the other that it becomes hard to ignore.

What do yall think?

There is zero relevant argument in this post explaining how exactly Disco Elysium is better. Just a bunch of buzzwords and a shitty analogy.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The real problem that nobody wants to mention is that it fundamentally lacks role playing.
I know this is a concept that's made fun of -- "haha you play the role of Mario so it's an RPG!" -- but the problem is right there in the joke: You must play Mario. And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.
In Planescape Torment you must always play The Nameless One, yes. But these are very clearly different in their expectations. To quote Avellone himself:

Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?” I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer

In DE, you are assuming a character with a very predefined role and are shackled to it. In my NHL example from the first page, it has this issue aswell where you must play as a hockey player. In many cases where you think "This isn't an RPG, but I can't place my finger quite on why", it likely comes back to this. Well, why isn't Borderelands an RPG? Because you must -- always, absolutely required to -- play a Vault Hunter with certain social and story expectations put upon the player that you aren't allowed to deviate from.
Consider Morrowind, where the strongest shackles placed upon you are never even confirmed to exist -- the game never tells you whether or not you're actually the Nerevarine.

This isn't to be confused with given a general purpose or a goal, but that you're given one and specifically required to go about it in a certain way that restricts the player's freedom to play the game he wants in an unreasonable manner within the confines of the game itself.

And, perhaps to some extent, this is an argument against many RPGs -- most typically ARPGs -- being considered cRPGs rather than their own separate but related genre. After all, what do Witcher 3 and Wizardry 7 really have in common? There's an interesting argument here for the first Witcher game because you have amnesia, and the lines definitely blur.

 

[BruceVC]

Disco Elysium has to be among the first games to really outdo the classics thanks largely to its fantastic writing. The way I see it, it used the foundations built by games from the past to finally step above it's predecessors and become something unique unto itself.
While Planescape: Torment is still a good game, it's age has caught up to it and allowed new games to use it as a stepping stone to reach new heightens in writing and gameplay. It feels that we've reach a point where new projects will slowly began to outdo some of the long-held staples, and lead the way for a new generation of game developers who have a better understanding of the medium than developers from the past.

It's akin to The Beatles improving upon the sound of the Beach Boys to create something entirely new. In this case, Disco Elysium is The Beatles improving upon the ideas brought up by The Beach Boys (Planescape: Torment); both very good, but one is so clearly better than the other that it becomes hard to ignore.

What do yall think?

Its an interesting comparison but I dont think you can ever compare a adventure\RPG game like Disco to an RPG like Planescape which is a more traditional RPG and its based on the D&D ruleset

Of course you can have a personal preference but the mechanics are completely different

For me I recognize the excellent humor and writing in Disco but I stopped playing it after 20 hours because I got bored because its not fantasy

I played and completed Planescape and its on my list of top 10 RPG of all time. So to answer your question, Planescape is much better than Disco

 

[MuffinBun]

The real problem that nobody wants to mention is that it fundamentally lacks role playing.
I know this is a concept that's made fun of -- "haha you play the role of Mario so it's an RPG!" -- but the problem is right there in the joke: You must play Mario. And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.
In Planescape Torment you must always play The Nameless One, yes. But these are very clearly different in their expectations. To quote Avellone himself:

Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?” I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer

In DE, you are assuming a character with a very predefined role and are shackled to it.

Hard disagree. If you play as a detective, but can put your own spin to it - be a rational detective, or an aggressive, boastful one - then it certainly is roleplaying. In Mario, you could for example attempt to do a pacifist run, or a run where you don't use mushrooms or whatever, and pretend that this is because that tells something about your Mario. That is kind of a proto-roleplaying, but Mario is not a roleplaying game, since it does not acknowledge that in any way in-game, neither does it encourage that kind of expression. The extension to which you can express yourself is too limited as well. But it is the expressions of the player that constitute role-playing.

A simpler way to discredit that is simply by pointing out that in the Witcher you always play as witcher; in Kotors you always play as a force user etc. You can't really deviate from that on a fundamental level. I dont see how the Avellone quote would circumvent that.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If you play as a detective,

But it's not "if", it's "must".

A simpler way to discredit that is simply by pointing out that in the Witcher you always play as witcher; in Kotors you always play as a force user etc. You can't really deviate from that on a fundamental level. I dont see how the Avellone quote would circumvent that.

Well, yes, it would disqualify the Witchers(except, perhaps, Witcher 1) which is intentional.
The RPG umbrella is far too broad as it is.

in Kotors you always play as a force user

Nope. You're never required to put a single level into any Jedi class in kotor. Kotor 2... I can't remember, are you required to? ...I think so.
Are you required to play as someone who is strong with the force? Yes, but this is different in that it's an innate property rather than a forced assumed role such as Geralt in Witcher 3.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Has any other video game genre become as unrecognizable as RPG has?
It's like listing the genre of GTAV as "racing" because there's cars and you can race them.

There is no way you can convince me Disco Elysium is in the same genre as Wizardry. You simply cannot.

 

[MuffinBun]

Are you required to play as someone who is strong with the force? Yes, but this is different in that it's an innate property rather than a forced assumed role such as Geralt in Witcher 3.

In both kotors you're a specific person with predetermined past.

Well, yes, it would disqualify the Witchers(except, perhaps, Witcher 1) which is intentional.
The RPG umbrella is far too broad as it is.

Maybe, but thats not relevant in a sense that we're discussing what constitutes role-playing, not an RPG game.

But it's not "if", it's "must".

I think I'm starting to get what you mean. You're of opinion that if player character has a pre-determined, consistent role or profession throughout the duration of the game, then it is not role-playing. Hmm. I disagree. I think role-playing describes playing a role in your own way, rather than being able to pick a role. I also don't see why you'd exclude predetermined goals or tasks. That's quite arbitrary. So in Torment I'm forced to complete a task of discovering my identity; that's a certain restriction, albeit not as harsh as being forced to fulfill responsibilities of a detective, or a city guard, in most cases. I cant just fuck off, and go on a mercenary expedition or something.

You say that player expression needs to include being able to determine your place in the world. I see no brake that would stop one from claiming that, if thats the case, you need to be able to pick your ambition and personal backstory as well. It seems like the level of restriction is the metric; and these are just better on these terms. I mean you are pointing to some quality difference, but it just makes more sense to say that as long there's some kind of degree of story-based player expression that's reacted to and accounted for, then role-playing takes place.

 

[MuffinBun]

If you turn it into a statement like "the good kind of roleplaying is when I get to pick my role in addition to playing it" then that's not controversial

 

[Harthwain]

Disco Elysium has to be among the first games to really outdo the classics thanks largely to its fantastic writing. The way I see it, it used the foundations built by games from the past to finally step above it's predecessors and become something unique unto itself.

While Planescape: Torment is still a good game, it's age has caught up to it and allowed new games to use it as a stepping stone to reach new heightens in writing and gameplay. It feels that we've reach a point where new projects will slowly began to outdo some of the long-held staples, and lead the way for a new generation of game developers who have a better understanding of the medium than developers from the past.

As far as the writing goes both touch different chords, despite sharing a lot of similarities. I could agree that Disco is way more hilarious and incorporates tabletop RPG mechanics better than Planescape: Torment, but I wouldn't say it does so on a wholly different level. To me they are still roughly in the same league (which in itself means they're pretty damn good, considering their inherent limitations).

I don't see it as ground-breaking though. Unless you consider the idea of separating the player from the character he's playing as such. Still, Planescape: Torment does it too, although to a much more limited degree (intelligence, for example). But this is more the case of Disco Elysium highlighting this aspect of role-playing instead discovering it. Hopefully this will garner more attention to what the character can perceive (and therefore can relay to the player), but I am not holding my breath. A lot of gaming turned into business and business is not innovative.

Planescape Torment has the better setting.
Disco Elysium is the better adventure game, overall.
Combat is shit in both.

Combat is better in Disco Elysium, because the developers were sensible enough to not bother people with it without having a good in-game layer dedicated to combat.

Disco Elysium has neither combat nor exploration [...] Meanwhile, the closest attempt to combat is a structured series of exposition with a few die rolls, and the only "exploration" consists of moving the player-character around a relatively small area.

It's the first time when I heard that exploration is not about exploring the world and about build porn instead. Yeah, I am not buying that.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You're of opinion that if player character has a pre-determined, consistent role or profession throughout the duration of the game, then it is not role-playing.

I'm saying that player autonomy in choices your character makes are required.
This is the fundamental difference in your kotor counterexample:
Your character cannot reject the force, therefore it's not a decision the player gets to make. The character can, however, reject using the force and so can the player(at least in kotor 1.)

Now contrast:
The player cannot reject being a detective, but the character can. It's simply a choice, a very major one, that has been stripped from the player.

I also don't see why you'd exclude predetermined goals or tasks. That's quite arbitrary.

It's not arbitrary.
Consider this contrived example:
"Fetch me a bucket of water from the well"
and
"Get me some water"
The second one is conductive to roleplaying. For example: My character is named Viktor, a skilled water mage, and he uses his magic to fill the glass in front of him with water.

Now if we go back to the topic at hand, we can see how this relates.
The first one told you explicitly how you must accomplish the goal. You are not to deviate from that.
This is different from merely being given a goal to accomplish.

Do you see how this relates to being required to play as a detective to solve a crime vs being given the goal of solving a mystery?

To tie this back to PST, your character wakes up to find out that he's TNO but has no memories of ever being TNO and didn't choose to be TNO. This isn't something your character can reject being. You're given a goal of figuring out your identity, a mystery to solve.

 

[Grauken]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

It's not, and I outlined why.
There are plenty of games with classes and RPG stats and other RPG elements that are not RPGs. Note that the NHL character sheet I included on the first page includes the character's class.
For the same reason GTAV is not a racing game.

 

[Grauken]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

It's not, and I outlined why.
There are plenty of games with classes and RPG stats and other RPG elements that are not RPGs. Note that the NHL character sheet I included on the first page includes the character's class.
For the same reason GTAV is not a racing game.

The problem with all those is that you're wrong

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

It's not, and I outlined why.
There are plenty of games with classes and RPG stats and other RPG elements that are not RPGs. Note that the NHL character sheet I included on the first page includes the character's class.
For the same reason GTAV is not a racing game.

The problem with all those is that you're wrong

But I'm not.
Do you really think Wizardry and Disco Elysium are in the same video game genre?

 

[Grauken]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

It's not, and I outlined why.
There are plenty of games with classes and RPG stats and other RPG elements that are not RPGs. Note that the NHL character sheet I included on the first page includes the character's class.
For the same reason GTAV is not a racing game.

The problem with all those is that you're wrong

But I'm not.
Do you really think Wizardry and Disco Elysium are the same video game genre?

On a grand scale, yes

 

[c u in da ballpit ashren]

Do these troll threads even work anymore?

I just don't get why someone would go through the trouble of registering an alt for it. Just shitpost on your main, for fuck's sake, everyone else does it. Might have better odds, too.

This is my main account. This is genuinely my first time using the site. Someone recommended I bring my ideas here to get your guys opinions.

I hope the mods let me post again. I'm not trying to cause any harm.

You sure post like it's your first time. Jeeeeeez! And I thought I SOUNDED LIKE THAT.

HEY EVERYONE LET'S KICK THE NEW GUY WHILE HE'S DOWN LET ME HAVE THIS MOMENT

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.

That is a pretty good argument for the game being a role-playing game. Yes, it's limited to only one class but the sub-classes are pretty distinct with a lot of role-playing options

It's not, and I outlined why.
There are plenty of games with classes and RPG stats and other RPG elements that are not RPGs. Note that the NHL character sheet I included on the first page includes the character's class.
For the same reason GTAV is not a racing game.

The problem with all those is that you're wrong

But I'm not.
Do you really think Wizardry and Disco Elysium are the same video game genre?

On a grand scale, yes

So this genre includes any game with RPG stats?
Because I struggle to see what other elements they share.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

RPG is seemingly the only video game genre where a game becomes a part of that genre merely for having a piece of the genre in a game.
Nobody has ever accused Skyrim of being a farming simulator, yet you can grow crops. Why?

Is there a financial benefit to being labeled as an RPG?
Maybe it adds some aura of "authority" in that RPG is seen as a more "mature" genre in terms of video games due to its roots in tabletop?

 

[Grauken]

So this genre includes any game with RPG stats?
Because I struggle to see what other elements they share.

Yeah, basically

 

[Momock]

rusty_shackleford: PST and DE are extremely similar in how you roleplay your character, that's why the comparison comes naturraly to mind: you play an amnesiac dude who stumbles across his past mistakes (and past love) and decides how to act toward these discoveries. Does he regret? Own his actions? Will continue doing what he was doing? Change his ways? Try to fix what he did? Drink until forgetting again? (and then there's also the political allignement, the ideas you develop, your inner thoughts, obssessions or not, if your'e going to actually solve the case or don't give a fuck, etc) . I assume that you didn't play DE if you think it's not an RPG for that specific reason (witch is very valid one, unlike the "hurdidur no combat" cope).

The "you play a detective" -> imposed role -> not an RPG" part seems to make sense, but it excludes most of what we consider a RPG though. Imagine playing Age of Decadence, only you can't chose your starting class, you're a Praetor and that's it! Can you really say with a straight face that it stops being an RPG? Even if you can still chose your path, alliances, stats, how to do the quests, differents endings...? And what about New Vegas? It's not a RPG because you play a courrier? And it could become one if you could choose to start as a hunter or something? Meh... doesn't sound right to me.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Can you really say with a straight face that it stops being an RPG? Even if you can still chose your path, alliances, stats, how to do the quests, differents endings...?

*cough*

Of all the visual novels I've played, AoD is the only one.

And what about New Vegas? It's not a RPG because you play a courrier?

I think you lose your job in the first few seconds of the game.
You aren't required to ever complete your delivery, although you can optionally choose to do so. Yes, this is definitely roleplaying.

 

[Momock]

You aren't requiered to do your job (and even lose it) in DE either, but I don't see how it makes it more or less RPG. If you have a mandatory main quest it's not a RPG?

 

[Kruno]

The combat in PS:T is a very weak point, and it is fair to compare the writing in both those games.

What criticisms of the OP's post do you actually have Scruffy?

 

[MuffinBun]

To tie this back to PST, your character wakes up to find out that he's TNO but has no memories of ever being TNO and didn't choose to be TNO. This isn't something your character can reject being. You're given a goal of figuring out your identity, a mystery to solve.

To be fair, the difference here is either not real(as in: you're wrong), or it's lost on me. Harry wakes up in a similar situation: he cannot reject being a detective assigned to this and this case. That's happened. And if he was to reject it in the future, as in: I'm not going to solve the case, I'm leaving - he'd be no different from TNO who chooses not to investigate his past and go do something else.

Now if we go back to the topic at hand, we can see how this relates.
The first one told you explicitly how you must accomplish the goal. You are not to deviate from that.
This is different from merely being given a goal to accomplish.

Do you see how this relates to being required to play as a detective to solve a crime vs being given the goal of solving a mystery?

I see there are different degrees of freedom involved. The player forced into being a detective still has different ways to accomplish his goal - he can crack the case in different ways. I suppose the criticism here is that all of those ways involve detective work, right? So there should be ways of tackling the problem that are not tied to character's profession? That seems arbitrary. Or rather: you want to be able to pick a profession, regardless of the character's past. This is the closest to a quality difference I see here. My character might have been a Jedi, but now I dont want him to be one; but I still have some task to solve; okay, then I'll solve it as a brawler, who just happens to be force-sensitive. Ok, I can see how thats different. Looks like I acquired some insight into how build-people see games. Will I be able to enjoy AoD or Colony Ship now? Probably not

I also don't see why you'd exclude predetermined goals or tasks. That's quite arbitrary.

It's not arbitrary.
Consider this contrived example:
"Fetch me a bucket of water from the well"
and
"Get me some water"
The second one is conductive to roleplaying. For example: My character is named Viktor, a skilled water mage, and he uses his magic to fill the glass in front of him with water.

I'm getting the impression that what you're saying boils down to: if I cannot make a build, then it is not roleplaying. So roleplaying is fundamentally about building a character. I disagree. That's what roleplaying games may be about, for some people. But thats not a prerequisite to playing a role in your own way - which is what constitutes roleplaying itself. If I am playing a farm boy[predetermined], who is to fetch a bucket of water, and there are multiple ways of doing that(within physical boundaries of being a boy), and I can express the values, attitudes or mental states of my character in some way, then that's roleplaying regardless of whether I were given an opportunity to create a build. This might be a semantic problem, if you consider "roleplaying" to be an act of playing a roleplaying game(which has to include more than roleplaying itself to be considered one).