Interview Pete Hines on Oblivion and Fallout.

[Vault Dweller]

Some funny stuff from Bethesda's forums:

RPGs in general don't need skills at all. I've played games before that can be classified as RPGs (even computer games) and they had limited skills, if any at all. Mainly it just involved my friends and I coming up with some personality and setting some objectives. Afterwards it was quite ammusing to watch things develop.
RPG to me simply means playing the role of someone else. Indeed, that's what RPG stands for. The best RPGs IMO are those that allow you to be very open in your choices and character options. For me, TES is the only one that has even come close to what I look for in an RPG.

Well thats perfectly fine to think it's not an RPG. As I said earlier, we all have our own definitions of what an RPG is.

However, this game comes from a line of RPGs, it has skills, classes (sort of), races, spells, and other things that are always asociated with RPGs.

So what would you like? What's wrong with an option to continue the game with a broken main quest?

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

Whats wrong with wanting to do all the quests the game has to offer.

Anyways if you have played a MW mod that uses the "NoLore" comand on NPCs, the topic system works very well. It basicaly makes it so there are the topics, but each NPC will only use it's own responce. The devs have confirmed this is the way things will work by default with oblivion.

 

[Antagonist]

Quest NPCs need a big green exclamation mark above their heads.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

Some funny stuff from Bethesda's forums:

RPGs in general don't need skills at all. I've played games before that can be classified as RPGs (even computer games) and they had limited skills, if any at all. Mainly it just involved my friends and I coming up with some personality and setting some objectives. Afterwards it was quite ammusing to watch things develop.
RPG to me simply means playing the role of someone else. Indeed, that's what RPG stands for. The best RPGs IMO are those that allow you to be very open in your choices and character options. For me, TES is the only one that has even come close to what I look for in an RPG.

Well thats perfectly fine to think it's not an RPG. As I said earlier, we all have our own definitions of what an RPG is.

However, this game comes from a line of RPGs, it has skills, classes (sort of), races, spells, and other things that are always asociated with RPGs.

So what would you like? What's wrong with an option to continue the game with a broken main quest?

Course you cut off the bottom of my post where I mentioned thats basically what it will probably be called by most people, and thats what makes those most sence for advertisement and information purposes.

EDIT: Hear's the whole post

Well thats perfectly fine to think it's not an RPG. As I said earlier, we all have our own definitions of what an RPG is.

However, this game comes from a line of RPGs, it has skills, classes (sort of), races, spells, and other things that are always asociated with RPGs.

When it gets reviewed, guess what it will be catagorized as? RPG.

When some kid tells his freinds about it, guess what he's going to call it? RPG.

Guess what makes the most sence to call this game for information and advertisement purposes? RPG.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nooooo! They've killed the thread!
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=139073

We were just approaching the line of "unacceptable personal attacks" and unacceptably stupid comments.

 

[merry andrew]

Whats wrong with wanting to do all the quests the game has to offer.

Nothing, except perhaps that the game was designed so that the character would discover certain quests through dialogue, and not all quests are required to complete the game.

You seem to be proposing that all quests be announced, as Antagonist said, at the cost of immersion and/or NPC individuality/complexity. In an "RPG" like Dungeon Siege, that sort of system works great, as it is very little about role-playing and very much about killing stuff. In an "RPG" like Fallout, where lots of detail is put not only into the surroundings, but also into NPCs, that sort of system seems very 'dumbed down'.

Anyways if you have played a MW mod that uses the "NoLore" comand on NPCs, the topic system works very well. It basicaly makes it so there are the topics, but each NPC will only use it's own responce. The devs have confirmed this is the way things will work by default with oblivion.

Huh? So it's a mod that gave every NPC a unique way of saying the same thing?

 

[Vykromond]

What about the line of unacceptably stupid comments? No? No such line? Oh well...

I gotta say, VD, this was a good one.

 

[merry andrew]

Nooooo! They've killed the thread!
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=139073

We were just approaching the line of "unacceptable personal attacks" and unacceptably stupid comments.

Logical reasoning is bad!!!11

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

The thread on the TES board was also aproaching the 200 post limet...so they would have killed it anyways.

Vykromond, I actually like having to look for some quests. But the quests you get from going up to the bartender and talking to people aren't realy hidden at all, so it just seams pointless to make you click through the same dialouge over and over.

The tough to find quests will still be tough to find, as they should be. It's just the topic system makes getting info on the obvious ones easier, and is much more convienient when you get somone who says "Ask around about _____" the topic system makes this much less annoying, I mean chatting people up is good and all, but I don't like spending forever on a single small stage of a quest.

 

[merry andrew]

I actually like having to look for some quests. But the quests you get from going up to the bartender and talking to people aren't realy hidden at all, so it just seams pointless to make you click through the same dialouge over and over.

The same dialogue? The bartender has a set of dialogue... the generic NPC next to the bartender has a set of dialogue... do you understand that the monotony that you're talking about is because of the way in which you choose to play the game?

The tough to find quests will still be tough to find, as they should be.

Please give an example. Thanks.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

I actually like having to look for some quests. But the quests you get from going up to the bartender and talking to people aren't realy hidden at all, so it just seams pointless to make you click through the same dialouge over and over.

The same dialogue? The bartender has a set of dialogue... the generic NPC next to the bartender has a set of dialogue... do you understand that the monotony that you're talking about is because of the way in which you choose to play the game?

The tough to find quests will still be tough to find, as they should be.

Please give an example. Thanks.

Well I want to know what there is to do in town. I look at a CRPG as a computer game. Maby thats my promblem. I think that the concept of "role playing" in a videogame is limeted and almost non existant, and to be honest, not that fun. If I want to role play, I get my buddies over and play D&D, or I go to NERO or some other LARP.

Example of hard to find quests...can't name any off the top of my head...I'm kinda forgetful...The dwemer langauge quest in morrowind...not exactly a good example, but all I can come up with at the moment.

 

[merry andrew]

Well I want to know what there is to do in town. I look at a CRPG as a computer game. Maby thats my promblem. I think that the concept of "role playing" in a videogame is limeted and almost non existant, and to be honest, not that fun. If I want to role play, I get my buddies over and play D&D, or I go to NERO or some other LARP.

Ah, yeah look at the top left corner of this webpage.

 

[Fez]

6pack1, your attempt to seem superior falls flat on its face when you make errors of your own. You have impressed no one, you pretentious twit.

Morrowind was not a good RPG, but it had some strong points and was fun to wander and have some adventures on it for a while. So while a bunch of people may like a game, that doesn't mean that it is a good example of an RPG, especially to most the people here. If you reduce RPGs to just requiring to include the ability to level up or have stats, then you have to include Warcraft 3 and a whole load of other games that have starting including these features as part of the latest trend.

The dialogue system in Morrowind was as awful as that old journal. It was quite easily the worst dialogue system I have ever seen. The mods and the developers promising to change it does hint that that is not just a handful here that feel that way. If they separate the wheat from the chaff this time round and save me from hearing the same line for the millionth time from a random NPC in the hope of finding something new, then I will be much happier.

Ideally each character would have tailor-made dialogue to suit their character and add more depth to them. Giving random or generic lines to people only makes them seem flat and boring. When you add in the random lines as padding even to the more important characters, such as quest givers or plotline-vital NPCs, it taints them with it and otherwise interesting characters become dull. The speech and script is part of what forms a character and makes them memorable and can massively improve the game experience.

Ideally each character would have tailor-made dialogue to suit their character and add more depth to them. Giving random or generic lines to people only makes them seem flat and boring. When you add in the random lines as padding even to the more important characters, such as quest givers or plotline-vital NPCs, it taints them with it and otherwise interesting characters become dull. The speech and script is part of what forms a character and makes them memorable and can massively improve the game experience.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

Well I want to know what there is to do in town. I look at a CRPG as a computer game. Maby thats my promblem. I think that the concept of "role playing" in a videogame is limeted and almost non existant, and to be honest, not that fun. If I want to role play, I get my buddies over and play D&D, or I go to NERO or some other LARP.

Ah, yeah look at the top left corner of this webpage.

"Putting the 'Role' Back in RPG"

I like roles, they are very yummy, but the carbs make me fat...

On a serious note, I happen to disagree with the whole dice = RPG thing. You use dice in pen and paper because thats you all you have. In a larp, you don't use dice, why? Because you have pipes wrapped in foam to do the rolling for you.

With a computer, you have quite a bit of mathimaticle resources where you can do some stuff thats much more logical than randomization.

IMHO the only way a CRPG can even try to be anything more than a pathetic wanna-be little brother of a pen and paper game or LARP is by taking advantage of it's technology.

 

[merry andrew]

On a serious note, I happen to disagree with the whole dice = RPG thing. You use dice in pen and paper because thats you all you have. In a larp, you don't use dice, why? Because you have pipes wrapped in foam to do the rolling for you.

That's great. However, dice have very little to do with dialogue trees, unless you're referring to the use of dialogue skills.

With a computer, you have quite a bit of mathimaticle resources where you can do some stuff thats much more logical than randomization.

IMHO the only way a CRPG can even try to be anything more than a pathetic wanna-be little brother of a pen and paper game or LARP is by taking advantage of it's technology.

The randomization aspect represents chance. How else can infinite nature be accounted for?

I'm looking foward to combat in Oblivion, not so much because I think it's staying true to its RPG roots, but because I see how it's moving toward creating a certain standard as a simulation (hopefully like Deus Ex). Sure, my character in Oblivion will probably have stats and skills and an inventory and equipment slots and a journal and a quest log and a reputation... but in combat, if I'm not actively participating in real-time (attacking, dodging, blocking) through precise mouse movements and clicks, my character will die. Even though they may be the best swordsman in the gameworld, I will be the one that determines how well they fight. In a traditional RPG, the player has virtually no impact on how well their character fights. What influence they do have comes from the skills/stats/equipment that they've selected for their character through a character development system, and also from limited strategical decisions (when and where to attempt a given action).

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

There is LOTS of randomization in Oblivion. Yeah, we got rid of to hit, but that doesn't mean we removed ALL of the rolls. There are still plenty of saving rolls, and the combat AI in particular uses lots of randomness.

Precise mouse movements? To an extent. Basically, if the dude's in front of you and within your sword's reach when you press the attack button, you hit. There's no locational damage -- even with archery -- because the amount of damage you do is dependent on your character's skill. It also levels the playing field a bit by giving you a bigger target (i.e. you don't have to aim for the head or a chink in the armor or whatever to score a hit.)

When I play p&p rpgs (which is 2-3 times a month), when my turn comes around in combat I tell the DM something like "OK, Gast runs towards the serpent saurian on his left, and attempts a critical attack to incapacitate with his battle axe". I then make my to hit roll, the enemy has a chance to parry, and if he fails I roll for damage. In Oblivion, I'd use the keys to make Gast run towards the Argonian on the left, and when I got to within range I'd make sure the lizard was in front of me and press and hold the attack button while holding the forward arrow, thus performing a power attack. I can see it all happening, just as I would have described it verbally to the GM. Of course, in that time, the Argonian might have dodged out of the way, he might have brought his shield up, he might have started an attack of his own. At any rate, if I'm close enough and facing the guy, he'll be hit. But Gast sucks with a battle axe, the battle axe is damaged, Gast is highly fatigued, the opponent is blocking or wearing armor and/or has a high armor rating, the blow might not do much damage.

Yes, in real-time, your strategic decisions are limited because you have to respond to changing conditions on the fly. You still have strategic choices, of course -- how you equip your character, when to use magic, when to attack and when to block, what spells and weapons to use against certain enemies, when to flee, when to yield, etc. You're not going to plan out complex tactical maneuvers. But then again, you're not going to have a party to coordinate either. You may have NPCs or creatures fighting on your side, but they're autonomous.

Stats matter. Skills matter. NUMBERS and randomness matter. Make no mistake -- Oblivion is most assuredly a stats-based, skills based RPG. It's also a real-time RPG, which necessitates a greater degree of player control.

And besides -- the to-hit roll was one of the things that sucked about combat in Morrowind.

 

[kris]

On a serious note, I happen to disagree with the whole dice = RPG thing. You use dice in pen and paper because thats you all you have. In a larp, you don't use dice, why? Because you have pipes wrapped in foam to do the rolling for you.

With a computer, you have quite a bit of mathimaticle resources where you can do some stuff thats much more logical than randomization.

IMHO the only way a CRPG can even try to be anything more than a pathetic wanna-be little brother of a pen and paper game or LARP is by taking advantage of it's technology.

There is no dice on a computer, it is randomisation together with mathematical calculations. Obviously the calculations is something that also is taken from PnP. the advantage of a computer is that it can make more complex calculations much faster which speeds up the happenings of the game in comparison to a PnP. There is nothing you can make more logical with the computer than with a PnP.

If you do the move away from character skill to player skill then that aspect is no longer roleplaying. Of course other aspects of the game can be roleplaying and whatever a certain player want is another thing, that is up to everyone to choose. Suffice to say, I would choose a true roleplaying experience over a twitchgame.

Let me add that there is still many PnP roleplaying games/rules that are clearly more realistic than anything done on a computer this far.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And besides -- the to-hit roll was one of the things that sucked about combat in Morrowind.

What is it with you guys and throwing stuff out instead of improving it?

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Seeing a 6 foot long claymore go straight through an opponent 2 feet in front of you and hearing a "whoosh" as it totally misses isn't fun by anyone's standards, unless you'd have been on the receiving end of the blow. Combat has been improved by removing the to-hit roll. But we also added new factors to the amount of damage you can do to account for its removal. So it's not really a net loss in "features", if you want to look at it that way.

 

[kris]

Precise mouse movements? To an extent. Basically, if the dude's in front of you and within your sword's reach when you press the attack button, you hit. There's no locational damage -- even with archery -- because the amount of damage you do is dependent on your character's skill. It also levels the playing field a bit by giving you a bigger target (i.e. you don't have to aim for the head or a chink in the armor or whatever to score a hit.)

Thanks for the clarifications.

Anyway, this have long been my complaint on RPGs (especially the computer one since the PnP I play take this into consideration), we need locational damage and critical effects. And being injuried should matter! Currently you can be chopped on several times and apparently the supposedly structural damage (2/82 hit points for example) doesn't affect you in any way. You can't be hit in the leg and limp, you can't hit someone in the head and instant kill.

I would want ranged in a game like this to be like this: You have a target and shoot at him, you have some default point of his body that you aim at (like the chest). Then the character skill determine how the arrow will fly towards him taking his current speed and direction into consideration if he moves. then a computer can determine where it will hit depending on how good he was at aiming (where it moved) and how the target moved (maybe changed direction or stepped back). If it hits his weapon arm then he is injuried there and possibly drops the weapon (depending on damage, armor etc) and so on. Obviously you could add some kind of "dodge" skill in several ways too.

with that you take the full capabilities of the computer, make it realistic, immersive and still have the RPG capabililties there.

 

[kris]

Seeing a 6 foot long claymore go straight through an opponent 2 feet in front of you and hearing a "whoosh" as it totally misses isn't fun by anyone's standards, unless you'd have been on the receiving end of the blow. Combat has been improved by removing the to-hit roll. But we also added new factors to the amount of damage you can do to account for its removal. So it's not really a net loss in "features", if you want to look at it that way.

you should read the rolemaster rules just add parry into the context Anyway, it simple, have another animation for misses. If you have the big claymore just going right trough the opponent it is not a fault of a to hit roll, it is the fault of the implementation. The rolls should obviously be done before the animation.

 

[Twinfalls]

And besides -- the to-hit roll was one of the things that sucked about combat in Morrowind.

What is it with you guys and throwing stuff out instead of improving it?

Oh come on, VD - you undermine your own fine arguments sometimes by choosing the wrong example.

Cutting out the to-hit roll is fine and you know it. In a sense it has been improved by being replaced with active blocking and a greater weight for combat skills in determining damage dealt. The game has real time combat, so this makes sense - its simply TES catching up with Gothic.

You've already pointed out, many times before, how Bethesda *really* stuff up by chucking stuff out, ie all the myriad skills and guilds of Daggerfall. But using the to-hit roll for this argument just makes you look like some kind of nihilist. Stick to hitting them where it matters (and there's a lot of that to hit)....

 

[Vault Dweller]

Seeing a 6 foot long claymore go straight through an opponent 2 feet in front of you and hearing a "whoosh" as it totally misses isn't fun by anyone's standards, unless you'd have been on the receiving end of the blow.

What about dodging/blocking/parrying animations attached to failed rolls though?

 

[kris]

Oh come on, VD - you undermine your own fine arguments sometimes by

Cutting out the to-hit roll is fine and you know it. In a sense it has been improved by being replaced with active blocking and a greater weight for combat skills in determining damage dealt. The game has real time combat, so this makes sense - its simply TES catching up with Gothic.

You've already mentioned how Bethesda *really* stuff up by chucking stuff out, ie all the myriad skills and guilds of Daggerfall. But using the to-hit roll for this argument just makes you look like some kind of nihilist. Stick to hitting them where it matters (and there's a lot of that to hit)....

Taking out "to hit rolls" is only fine if you don't want them. rEad my post before.

also, I think it is safe to say that taking out things from a game gives it less freedom. Now I am not saying taking things away is always a bad choice, but it ALWAYS gives less things to do, pretty elementary.

MSFD, if you may, I have not read that much about it, but I believe you haven't added pole arms into the game? Is that because you think they are to hard to implement due to their special nature of being best used at a longer distance? Can you give us some insight into that?

What about dodging/blocking/parrying animations attached to failed rolls though?

to late

 

[Twinfalls]

Seeing a 6 foot long claymore go straight through an opponent 2 feet in front of you and hearing a "whoosh" as it totally misses isn't fun by anyone's standards, unless you'd have been on the receiving end of the blow. Combat has been improved by removing the to-hit roll. But we also added new factors to the amount of damage you can do to account for its removal. So it's not really a net loss in "features", if you want to look at it that way.

Well, that's great - so you've caught up with Gothic 1. But why aren't you expanding on the great *analogue* combat of Daggerfall? I guess for the same reason you haven't expanded on all the crucial aspects of that game that should have been (and instead chuck them right out) - guild complexities, real rewards, huge skill sets, mature world, sophisticated story, I go on and on, but Beth never listens to these things anyway.....