Interview Pete Hines on Oblivion and Fallout.

[android]

It didn't.

There might be some game that eluded me... was it Gothic? Or some others as well?

 

[Surlent]

Arcanum had npcs who throlled around streets on days or just standed on guard until nightime when they went back to bed. I think you could have called it NotSoRadiantAI.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't understand why you all complain about the Radiant AI? Sure they overhype it, but if it were only simple NPC schedules like in Ultima 7 it would be quite nice. Actually I don't understand why it took 13 years to have it again in RPGs...

I don't like NPC schedules for one simple reason, I don't like hunting people down. Until you can ask another NPC, "Hey, where is Bob?" and they tell you where Bob has gone, you've only got half of the life-like thing going.. The annoying half.

There might be some game that eluded me... was it Gothic? Or some others as well?

Gothics have all done it. Prelude to Darkness did it. Teudogar did it.

 

[android]

I don't like NPC schedules for one simple reason, I don't like hunting people down. Until you can ask another NPC, "Hey, where is Bob?" and they tell you where Bob has gone, you've only got half of the life-like thing going.. The annoying half.

Anything's better than NPCs standing on one spot 24/7. Even with schedules it shouldn't be so hard to find for example a farmer NPC - during the day he's on a nerby field, in the evening he's in the tavern and sleeping at night. On sunday morning he's in the church etc.

Gothics have all done it. Prelude to Darkness did it. Teudogar did it.

Compared to the number of RPGs out there it's stil a tiny fraction, which is sad.

 

[Drakron]

Oblivion have 3d graphics!

How many RPGs have then ... yep, still a fraction.

Morrowind COULD have done it, it was fully capable of seeing how mods made it possible so Radiant AI is not such a "revolution" as far schedule is concerned, the reason they pump that is because its a new feature to the series done by then.

As said, its just icing on a cake ... not the cake and with the whole "dumb down to the masses" there is not really much cake for RPG player ...

 

[Naked_Lunch]

The only reason I see to have "RadiantAI" or whatever bullshit they're calling it is to offer more oppurtunities for the player to get X quest done. Example: Bill wants you to kill Joe because Joe fucked his wife. If RadiantAI is utilized correctly, you could be able to follow him around and wait for the oppurtune moment to whack his ass. Better yet, you could remember that Joe goes out and buys bread at noon, so you could go and bribe the breadseller to posion the bread or whatever. Ultima VII, and parts of Gothic tried to do this to some effect.

Until I can do shit like that, RadiantAI and NPC Schedules are nothing to me.

 

[Atrokkus]

Gothic beeat the shit out of Morrowind in terms of NPC behaviour, world liveness and dialogs. I mean, the look quite similar, but in terms of RPGishness Gothic is TONN BETTER.
I sense that Bethesda understands that now and tries to catch up with it in Oblivion. We'll see how it turns out, tho.

 

[Fez]

I like NPC schedules when they add something to the game, like allowing you to rob shopkeepers more easlily in Arcanum, or avoiding a guard patrol.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It doesn't automatically load the last game save. It brings up the load saved game screen. But you can always press "DONE" without choosing a file and continue playing, even though you can no longer necessarily finish the main quest.

Implement anything even remotely like this in Fallout 3 and I will kill you.

 

[bryce777]

I dont care much about the load thing. The only thing that annoys me is this implies they have a plot where there's lots of people who you HAVE to talk to to advance the game. To me, that is usually a sign of a poor, rather linear plot.

As for the people who want to kill everything in the game and get a happy ending, put down the crack pipe...you are almost as unreasonable as the people who want to have a huge, dangerous adventure with absolutely no combat.



I also don't care TOO much about the weapons. The weapons all behaved the same anyhow, and in fact the best weapon in daggerfall was just a plain knife.

Why you can't use the same skills and just have a crossbow hit harder and load slower is beyond me, though.

If the weapons had any real difference to them it would be a different story...such as if some pentrated armor better, but did less overall damage, etc.

Instead the only difference is a dagger does 1-6 +152 damage and an axe does 1-12 +152 damage, so who cares? They should have gone for more detail and not less, but of the things that are gonna suck, this is smalltime stuff.

 

[Human Shield]

It doesn't automatically load the last game save. It brings up the load saved game screen. But you can always press "DONE" without choosing a file and continue playing, even though you can no longer necessarily finish the main quest.

Implement anything even remotely like this in Fallout 3 and I will kill you.

But the special NPCs, they are just so special. The entire world revolves around them they are so special, no conflict EVER can EVER be solved without them!

 

[kris]

Until I can do shit like that, RadiantAI and NPC Schedules are nothing to me.

Regardless of what you or someone else say, they WILL increase immersment. Now if that is hardly something you care about and if that may only lead to more work (as for what S_P said) is another thing.

I think we safely can say: Radiant AI at this point = a world that looks more living.

Now since their other big news is: super graphics! then we can safely assume that the world will be very nice to look on, but that we know nothing this far about how fun it will be to interact in.

Screensaver?

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

The only reason I see to have "RadiantAI" or whatever bullshit they're calling it is to offer more oppurtunities for the player to get X quest done. Example: Bill wants you to kill Joe because Joe fucked his wife. If RadiantAI is utilized correctly, you could be able to follow him around and wait for the oppurtune moment to whack his ass. Better yet, you could remember that Joe goes out and buys bread at noon, so you could go and bribe the breadseller to posion the bread or whatever.

They talked about what you're describing in some interview. They said that's what they're aiming for (quests) besides the visual/immersion part of it being just a seemingly living world. Personally, I hope they allow you to betray Bill and fuck his wife (or rape Bill, or better yet, Joe, if you swing that way). Hopefully they can come up with some interesting quests, and interesting ways to complete them.

 

[lamaslany]

Perhaps, lamaslany, but on the other hand, I still think people are making a *HUGE* deal out of what's really a trivial issue -- if it's an issue at all. Besides -- people will complain no matter HOW it works

...

If it is that trivial then fix it! :wink:

Personally I don't give a damn either way; in fact I'm more likely to be one of the people that reloads if I break the MQ.

From how you've described it though it does sound like it will not be obvious to the player that they can simply press 'DONE' to continue playing. This might make people that don't realise they can continue feel that you have restricted their options.

I mean on a load saved game screen a 'DONE' button might not convey that there is a choice about reloading. CANCEL, CONTINUE or even BACK might, but DONE seems a little to open if it hasn't been explained...

You can't tell me that a multi-option dialog box is too difficult to code in the time you have left! Well you probably can but I wouldn't believe you...

PS: I promise to complain less if you fix it... :D

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Regardless of what you or someone else say, they WILL increase immersment. Now if that is hardly something you care about and if that may only lead to more work (as for what S_P said) is another thing.

I think we safely can say: Radiant AI at this point = a world that looks more living.

Well, like I said. Life like worlds are fine if they're actually life-like. The problem with things like NPC schedules is that things move around a lot with little to no recourse on a decent way for the player to compensate for that.

In the real world, when you come home and your roommate/mother/child/wife/etc. who is normally there isn't there, you can ask another person living there where they are. If you have something to ask them, you can get the information and make a judgement on what to do. That's not something you can really do in a CRPG.

Often times I've found that in CRPGs with scheduling, I tend to use the wait function until the time is right for them to be where I know they're going to be - which is totally NOT life like. No one is going to show up where they know someone is going to be in a few hours and wait all that time passively just so they can pick up a quest or what have you.

Until I can ask "Where's Bob?" to an NPC where Bob used to be and get an answer that tells me where Bob is in a plausible fashion, I'd really rather not deal with it.

 

[Dragon]

Until I can ask "Where's Bob?" to an NPC where Bob used to be and get an answer that tells me where Bob is in a plausible fashion, I'd really rather not deal with it.

Well, they actually did it, sort of, in Daggerfall. You could ask for a person or a location (inn, merchant, ...) and first, the NPC gave some general directions, and the closer you got, the more precise directions they gave. Absolutely necessary in a random genereated world of this size. But they could simply put it back in Oblivion, even if it's only a generic - not very RPGish - way of doing it.

 

[merry andrew]

Often times I've found that in CRPGs with scheduling, I tend to use the wait function until the time is right for them to be where I know they're going to be - which is totally NOT life like. No one is going to show up where they know someone is going to be in a few hours and wait all that time passively just so they can pick up a quest or what have you.

Until I can ask "Where's Bob?" to an NPC where Bob used to be and get an answer that tells me where Bob is in a plausible fashion, I'd really rather not deal with it.

I'm not sure I understand.

If you were to go to Bob's house and ask someone there about Bob's whereabouts, and they tell you "Bob's at work. He works at the mill." or "Bob works at the mill, he left an hour ago" or "Bob should be headed to the mill, he usually get there around 7 AM", you'd probably either follow a well-known path from Bob's house to the mill, or you'd go to the mill. If Bob wasn't at the mill, you'd either wander about, or just wait for him to arrive. So even if you were able to ask someone about his whereabouts, you'd still go through the pretty similar motions as if you hadn't had anyone to ask.

So are you saying that you'll be able to really enjoy NPC scheduling only when you can ask someone about Bob's whereabouts AND have Bob actually be on a path to his destination?

Sorry I've been up too long.

 

[Twinfalls]

And they can't do the age-old 'he is in [x/y] direction" because on Beths insistence that all next-gen games must have total voice acting. And supposedly the quest compass makes up for this, though I simply can't see how.

I think most people on this thread have so far missed what looks to be most disappointing about Oblivion. No crossbows, blah - these aren't going to be the kick in the teeth for Daggerfall fans. What will be is:

The failure to expand, or even repeat, the guild complexities of Daggerfall. Not only are there fewer guilds now than even Morrowind (and it looks like there'll be either no, or a very small, religious guild to join), but once again everything is simplified, and yes - dumbed down.

Daggerfall made you do tasks before you could join a guild. Daggerfall made you maintain reputation over time to stay with a guild, or your status would fall. Daggerfall made a number of privileges only available if you joined a certain guild, and then only if you made a certain level.

The best example of this was Enchanting. In Daggerfall, it was only available if you joined certain Temple guilds, and only if you got high enough.

Then Morrowind made enchanting available to anyone with enough coin, simply by walking up to the many dudes just standing there who could give you +10,000 kill everything and +40,000 bling on your ring simply by throwing some money at them.

Will this change in Oblivion? I really doubt it. We know you can join every guild and get to the top of each, WITH ONE CHARACTER.

And this is one of the main reasons I expect it to continue to unfulfill the promise of Daggerfall.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

From how you've described it though it does sound like it will not be obvious to the player that they can simply press 'DONE' to continue playing. This might make people that don't realise they can continue feel that you have restricted their options.

This is exactly what I did in Morrowind when I encountered the "You messed the main plot" dialogue box. I thought "Shit, I'll never be able to finish the game at all! AAARRGGHH!". Instant re-load. In all my arguments about it, I had hoped Bethesda would think of ways to eliminate the "necessary NPCs"... Not do something as cocked up as this.

By the way, welcome to the Codex! Beware of the dog.

It doesn't automatically load the last game save. It brings up the load saved game screen. But you can always press "DONE" without choosing a file and continue playing, even though you can no longer necessarily finish the main quest.

Implement anything even remotely like this in Fallout 3 and I will kill you.

But the special NPCs, they are just so special. The entire world revolves around them they are so special, no conflict EVER can EVER be solved without them!

That's why I loved Fallout. There was no "main quest" you could stuff up - if you did, it was a very clear "game over" screen that you got and even then, that was only if you attacked the Overseer in Fallout 1 or your village in Fallout 2. Why they can't simply admit that there is no option once you kill an important character and have a "Game Over - You failed in your quest!" is beyond me. Instead they try to half-arse it. They don't quite go the way of Fallout by having very, very few "special" NPCs and instead make anyone and everyone who has even anything at all remotely to do with the main plot some kind of "special NPC". Then because they do that, if you killed them and got a game over, it'd be too much so they half-arse it. You get to "continue" in some sort of neutered game where you can become all Uber Powerful but ohno, you can't kill the Bid Bad Foozle because you haven't collected Mrs Smiths Hankerchief! And she was an important NPC who you killed!

If this is any indication on what Bethesda think is a "good thing to do", I'm becoming more and more concerned about just what kind of Fallout 3 we're going to get.

 

[kris]

In the real world, when you come home and your roommate/mother/child/wife/etc. who is normally there isn't there, you can ask another person living there where they are. If you have something to ask them, you can get the information and make a judgement on what to do. That's not something you can really do in a CRPG.

This is actually implying you know who you are searching for, which usually set in if there is someone with several quests or someone who have been reffered to you by someone else. Not to forget a replay. In the end, asking people where other people are is just another layer of immersement. you will know in which general aera they can be found anyway and if you didn't know of them before then it doesn't matter where they stand as it comes down to who you see and who you ask for 'whatever'.

 

[Claw]

Say what you will, schedules are cool in my book. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to ask where someone is, given that it's already been done.

Of course Radiant AI may be a bit more problematic than simple schedules, but it might still be possible to implement a system so other NPCs may provide clues.

Oh, and btw. Just been playing DeusEx, and was amused to notice that the "talk about an topic you overheard" feature is "sort of" present.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

Wow...you guys are crazy...

You guys have complained about quite a bit about oblivion...

May I point out that this is a very different type of RPG than the standard isometric style game.

The Devs seem like their putting more focus on making the experiences that are in fun, awsome, and immersive. Basicaly leave X-bows and TWs out if they're going to suck. While you had plenty of options in daggerfall, they didn't realy feal polished.

The one thing that I am annoyed at slightly is the ability to join every guild. I think that if you are super careful and such, you might be able to join and complete all of them, but if your not, you should definetely limet your options.

On FO3, what makes you think it will bea first person real time game? Oblivion is a TES game...TES has been first person real time since the days of arena. The folks at bethsoft are FO fans themselves, and I doubt they would do anything too stupid. Sure, some stuff is going to change, and some TES features might be implemented (RAI, multiple armor slots, 3D), but I think it will still be fallout.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: Wow...you guys are crazy...

May I point out that this is a very different type of RPG than the standard isometric style game.

It is? Holy shit!!! Well, dude, thanks for telling us!

The Devs seem like their putting more focus on making the experiences that are in fun, awsome, and immersive.

Fun, awsome, and immersive? Sounds "awsome"! Hey, Beth, you better copyright that slogan while it's still available.

Basicaly leave X-bows and TWs out if they're going to suck.

Hmm, how about "tweak them so they wouldn't suck"?

While you had plenty of options in daggerfall, they didn't realy feal polished.

Meaning what? Climbing was very useful. In fact, it was a great alternative to levitation. Swimming was great too, and again, an alternative to water spells. Not to mention backstabbing, critical strike, and medical. Skills like those are what define characters much better than artificial restrictions.

The one thing that I am annoyed at slightly is the ability to join every guild.

Not only to join, but also to get to the top in every guild

On FO3, what makes you think it will bea first person real time game?

Uh, the fact that Bethesda has no experience and fanbase for that while it's has plenty of both for FP RPGs? Beth tried to branch out before: Battlespire, Redguard - didn't work out. There is no reason for them to make another fantasy game, while a sci-fi game is a different matter. So, now tell me that they will try to enter the uncharted territory of isometric games instead of utilizing the existing tech and experince and making a FP game. The only question here is game mechanics.

Oblivion is a TES game...TES has been first person real time since the days of arena. The folks at bethsoft are FO fans themselves, and I doubt they would do anything too stupid.

Many changes from DF to MW to OB could be qualified as stupid, so don't get your hopes up. As for Beth's folks being FO fans, we have a few very amusing "I have no fucking clue" quotes in our collections. Let me know if you want to see them.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Hint about Fallout's POV:

I'd say the impact the original had in its day was about so much more then the angle you viewed it at, or how combat was executed

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=139073

Because the Devs seam like to argue with the crazy RPG snobs over there...If you read through that entire thread you'll realise the the folks on that forum are psychos...
...
I just joined so I can argue with them. Everyone there dosn't seem to realise that hitting somthing and seeing it get smacked around up close and personal is so much more fun than clicking some guy and then sitting back.

That doesn't reflect highly on your ability to read

Edit:

I personaly fin multi option dialouge boxes annoying, especialy with fully voiced dialouge. You have to click through the same stuff over and over agin to get to what you want. This you can just choose the topic. As for the forced reload thing, that wasn't crazy at all. When I said crazy, I was thinking the people who were like "Well by taking away dice roles they are turning it into a console hack n' slash" or "Well REAL RPGs are isometric top down view"...I always laught at them beacause most of the games they like to call real RPGs force you to go through as a killing machine of one type or another

lol. Where do you come up with this shit?