KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Grotesque]

It's already a bad PC UI.

So you'd prefer a UI cluttered with tiny little icons which you can click with a mouse, like in UFO? It's 2018 - things have moved on.

If a UI is not "cluttered" it means the game is shit because its gameplay is simplistic and narrow in terms of options and there is not enough gameplay mechanical complexity to be featured/translated on the UI. And this is especially bad for a TURN BASED game.
Also having all the options displayed at the ready and not having to cycle through them by pressing the same button or access many cascade menus to accomplish a task is way better.
Things have to move on?
To what. But then again, we shall see what PP devs will come up with and then the real show could begin properly and the discution will be on points.

Spoiler

^OMG!! Look at those tiny icons! I am blind!!!

In 2018 most of pc gamers plays often with a controller, so saying that controller support is against pc doesn't make sense.

Pc players even made petitions and web-riots in the past asking for controller support on some pc games.

You guys are stuck in the 90's.

Give him some real complains or you will look just like whiners and cannot be taken seriously.

Hey fucktard! After accusing me of shitposting you come up with this jewel?
lol.

PS: never ignore a toddler's feedback.
I deplore the child that will draw the winning ticket to have you as a parent.

 

[HansDampf]

At no point has anyone suggested we go the route of x-com’s UI. What people are saying is the following:

1.) They feel like Julian blatantly lied about making the game PC centric. PC centric to me means develop the game for PC and then do a console port. Much like in Div Original Sin.

2.) Due to the UI design being developed for both platforms at the same time, people are naturally nervous/worried/leery that complex mechanics might get dumbed down if they become too clunky to navigate via controller.

3.) Due to #1 ppl feel like the game was marketed in a way to get more money out of PC players than if they had known console development would be in tandem with PC development.

Just 2) will suffice.

Keeping the prime and throw mechanics seperate allows for cool stuff. Maybe I wanna throw a non primed grenade to a close comrade in the second story of a nearby building. Maybe I wanna prime a grenade, hold onto it, and kamikaze my way into the alien spacecraft.

But since the vast majority of the time you’re priming and throwing within the same turn, why not just have an option called “Prime and Throw”?

That right there is a perfect example of ways to streamline and speed up the gameplay. You can keep the separation of prime and throw, but you now add in an option to do both at the same time, which is what you wanna do in 90% of situations.

"Prime and Throw" would be one more "tiny little icon" cluttering the UI, or one more hotkey consoles can't have.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko whats my agenda exactly? I’m just explaining that the OG X-com UI could have been improved.

Exactly that.

 

[Mustawd]

 

[Shog-goth]

It's already a bad PC UI.

So you'd prefer a UI cluttered with tiny little icons which you can click with a mouse, like in UFO? It's 2018 - things have moved on.

So your only alternative for a cluttered UI is a bad one?

 

[UnstableVoltage]

1.) They feel like Julian blatantly lied about making the game PC centric. PC centric to me means develop the game for PC and then do a console port. Much like in Div Original Sin.

Julian didn't lie at all. We are developing the game for PC. The gameplay and game has always been PC first. The UI has been designed to support controllers and be usable on a large TV from a distance. We always hoped at some point that the game would make it to consoles, and it's better to have a UI in place that already works on all platforms, than trying to change it later. This is a fairly standard development practice.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news..._approach_to_multiplatform_game_UI_design.php

2.) Due to the UI design being developed for both platforms at the same time, people are naturally nervous/worried/leery that complex mechanics might get dumbed down if they become too clunky to navigate via controller.

When development started, it was PC (inc Mac) only. We didn't have the MS deal on the table. We did, as I mentioned above, hope that we would at some point be able to have a console port. At the time of the Fig, we didn't know we would be working on a simultaneous console release. We have already said that nothing will be removed from the game to accommodate a console version. We told the same thing to MS. The only compromise is the console version will have reduced graphical fidelity.

3.) Due to #1 ppl feel like the game was marketed in a way to get more money out of PC players than if they had known console development would be in tandem with PC development.

People will always come to their own conclusions and see things how they want to.

Someone above asked if I had ever played UFO with a controller (can't remember who it, and can't be bothered to dig back through several pages). To answer that question: Yes, I have. My first experience of X-Com: UFO was actually the PS1 version. The controller input was ok at best. The mouse emulation was awful, as the PS1 just had the d-pad. The snap mode was slightly better, and most of the commonly used actions had shortcut buttons. The UI was just about readable on a 20-something inch TV (PAL). You could give X-Com: UFO an nuXCOM-like interface without losing any functionality.

The main fear here seems to be that because we're making a UI that is compatible with controller/TV/console that we have to simplify the game for it to work. That just isn't the case. Certainly, there are fewer buttons and icons on the UI - but one thing UFO never had was a context-sensitive UI. The UI in X-Com was always static. With modern UIs, you only need to show elements that are relevant to the action the player can take. This means less clutter of rarely used buttons, and less screen space is taken up by the UI. Phoenix Point also has full keyboard shortcut support for all abilities and actions.

I'm stepping out of this conversation now, as I've said all that can be said - and nothing is going to convince some of you because you've already made up your minds.

 

[Shog-goth]

BTW, I really like the Sentinels.

 

[PanteraNera]

I can agree that there was been a change in art style.

I would actually say it is not a change in the art style, but overall tone of the game.

In the original vision:
Pandora Virus had a lot of body horror, Julian stated that it was influenced by John Carpenters The Thing. Even going so far as stating in an rock paper shotgun interview that Phoenix Point is an quote "sci-fi horror game". (source)
The setting was more mature as kids are not a target audience for that kind of stuff. So I hoped or better was excited for a game for matures (with a mature story).
Now we have more friendly, more generic looking aliens and lost most of the body horror.

New Jericho looked like bad ass scavengers, that faction was probably the main reason why kotaku said "Phoenix Point Is The Fusion of XCOM And Fallout We All Want". Now they just look like something out of XCOM or any other generic sci-fi game.

Synedrion looked sleek, elegant and really interesting. The only new image from them since the Fig showed something Crysis-like. Makes sense, in the original concept New Jericho was not high-tech, so Synedrion must now look higher high-tech .

Disciples of Anu looked really crazy, again there has been only one new image since the Fig, and it made them look like some kind of tribal, Lord of the Ring-ish.

Overall I say all factions have lost their distinct looks. All factions looked different from each other only the player faction and New Jericho looked similar-ish (post apocalyptic, use of what is available).

I was actually interested to see which features you think have been removed.

We do not know which features are in or how the features will work.
For example base management. No one knows anything about that (besides what Julian had said about it in the interview I did with him).
We get dev blogs, mostly about graphical stuff. Oh look a alien ladder, how exciting *sarcasm*. Oh look pictures of the guys making the game. Oh look pictures of weapons.
There is no "meat", as an example take a look at http://battlebrothersgame.com/ most if not all their dev updates have meat to them, as in what players can expect to see in the game, how things work, how (and why) the enemy behaves like that, or what options you get through equipment.
We do not know if the current "more traditional full TU system" is to stay, as it was introduced as an test before BB1.
All we do know is that changes are made without communicating them with the Backers and Fan Base.
Also we know that changes are made to draw in more customers (streamlining), while a lot of people hoped/expected/wished that PP is a niche game for old X-Com fans (or "The Fusion of XCOM And Fallout We All Want", or "a sci-fi horror game", or "the evolution of XCOM / X-Com").

 

[Mustawd]

I personally don’t care if they’re communicated.

I'm stepping out of this conversation now, as I've said all that can be said - and nothing is going to convince some of you because you've already made up your minds.

I was just trying to summarize the whole controller bit.

Agree there isn’t much to say here. The new environments look p. Cool.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Any info about what battlefield role those sentinels fill?

edit.
More stuff on their twitter:


edit 2.
Someone on Twitter pointed out these creatures from apocalypse.

Perhaps sentinels are stationary ranged unit?

 

[Grotesque]

We get dev blogs, mostly about graphical stuff. Oh look a alien ladder, how exciting *sarcasm*. Oh look pictures of the guys making the game. Oh look pictures of weapons.

That is because that like in the majority of games in development, the graphics department pushes up assets at a way faster rate than the programmers can code the game.
The problem becomes more prominent when you have bad programmers.

 

[Shog-goth]

UnstableVoltage I ask again (3rd time): which features can we expect to see in the next backer build? Thanks.

And another question, please: why have a Trello, to never update it?

 

[UnstableVoltage]

UnstableVoltage I ask again (3rd time): which features can we expect to see in the next backer build? Thanks.

We haven't announced the features which will be in the build yet. There are a number of things we've been working on which are in our development build, but their appearance in Backer Build Three will be dependent on the testing and bug fixing after the content lock (which happens next week). We have new enemies (including the lava and Sentinels (maybe more)), new maps (including alien maps), the geoscape (a staging area for selecting missions and equipping squads), customisable squad loadouts (including armour), more weapons and the mist. As I said though, if any of them were to give us any game-breaking bugs in testing which we can't fix in a timely manner, a feature may be removed until the following build as to not delay the release.

And another question, please: why have a Trello, to never update it?

It hasn't updated because there isn't anything to update. The roadmap so far has mainly focused on the immediate sprints (to get features into BB3). Those sprints haven't changed. Once BB3 releases, the roadmap will be updated to show what we're working on next. Bear with us on the roadmap. It's something we've only recently started to do, and it's going to take a while to get it fully fleshed and routinely updated. I'm sure you can appreciate that development efforts are better concentrated on the game itself than updating a trello board every few days.

 

[Shog-goth]

I'm sure you can appreciate that development efforts are better concentrated on the game itself than updating a trello board every few days

Of course, but at the moment is practically useless.

It's something we've only recently started to do, and it's going to take a while to get it fully fleshed and routinely updated

Ok. Let's see what happens.

We have new enemies (including the lava and Sentinels (maybe more)), new maps (including alien maps), the geoscape (a staging area for selecting missions and equipping squads), customisable squad loadouts (including armour), more weapons and the mist

That would be something, at least. I'm really curious to see it.

Thanks.

 

[Ibbz]

Do the sales of this style of game on consoles actually cover the cost of catering to them? If you look at the sales of XCOM 2 on the consoles, it only sold roughly 60k in the first week, and like every other game I imagine it dropped off fast.

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/266...d-57k-units-first-week-at-retail-on-consoles/

It seems highly unlikely that Phoenix Point will sell as much as XCOM 2 and the cut received from Console sales is much smaller than what you'd be getting from Steam for example.

Or did MS just pay you a several hundred thousand to try and cater for their failing console?

 

[Shog-goth]

Do the sales of this style of game on consoles actually cover the cost of catering to them?

And, above all, they cover the loss of trust? If you carry on a crowdfunding campaign on the premise that you will make a strictly PC-centric game and suddenly, after few months, you announce a simultaneous console development with the same UI...well, I think it's a serious credibility issue. Yes, they said this would be possible but it should have happened after the PC release, as a simple porting, and I'm pretty sure everyone believed this. They painted it as a very remote possibility, and look at the result.

 

[Latelistener]

The UI has been designed to support controllers and be usable on a large TV from a distance. We always hoped at some point that the game would make it to consoles, and it's better to have a UI in place that already works on all platforms, than trying to change it later. This is a fairly standard development practice.

Snapshot Games seems to be so happy about the console release, forgetting that 90% of your audience will be playing the game using M&KB sitting next to a monitor, not on a "large TV from a distance". You'll be delusional to think otherwise. Yet, you're willing to sacrifice the comfort of a majority for an unreliable minority.

I don't know if you've noticed, but turn-based strategies do not sell very well on consoles and the abysmal sales of XCOM were the reason why XCOM 2 was PC-exclusive at first (and these games were marketed by 2K). To make matters worse: Xbox right now is an outsider compared to PS and it also doesn't have much history with turn-based tactical games, unlike PS systems, which had a lot of them in the past (and still it didn't help games like Valkyria Chronicles).

Some devs actually understand that you cannot make a UI suitable for both platforms and there always will be compromises - the reason why they make 2 different interfaces.

I'm stepping out of this conversation now, as I've said all that can be said - and nothing is going to convince some of you because you've already made up your minds.

It's not what you're saying that matters - it's what you're doing. From all I read here for the past year all you're doing is trying to alienate people you're suppose to make the game for and who helped you fund it. A very positive attitude towards Phoenix Point in this thread changed to cautious pessimism.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Ooooo UI fight

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

I wouldnt call the early 90ies a golden era of UIs, quite the opposite actually. In fact cumbersome UIs are one of the main hindrance when replaying games from the period.

Apart from missing hotkeys, the problem back then was lack of tooltips to some degree but mostly lack of context sensivity. The original UFO UI was ok für its time but it would be rather annoying to use today without the improvements that open x-com brings.

I think the late 90s and early 2000‘s (before the advent of Xbox and multi platform releases) where the golden age of UIs both in terms of usability as well as aesthetics. Multiplattform release habe dumbed UIs down since then and we haven’t really recovered, just got used to it.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Does close combat require baton, or is there other melee?
Rifle butt attacks or swords that were featured in concept pictures?

 

[The Anus Of Discontent]

Simplifying controls down because the controller isn't capable of handling what's on screen due to lack of mouse and keyboard, and simplifying game features, often go hand in hand. There is not a single game that hasn't suffered due to turning multiplatform. Consolization is exactly the same as casualization and while I can't blame the game slowly turning the way it's turning to be, after all, games are big business and money is money and this is true tenfold now that you're partnered up with microsoft, but please don't act clueless that this won't affect Julian Gollop's brilliant-yet-always-changing vision of the game and turn what was pitched as a GLORIOUS product during the crowdfunding campaign, and have it -potentially- changed into something.. hell, I don't know, resembling XCOM 3 but under a different name. I wouldn't want Phoenix Point to end up like X Rebirth.
With such possibilities it's completely fair for fans, especially those who crowdfunded to get this thing off the ground, to react with skepticism vitriol and downright hostility.

You could always argue that, hey, we don't know anything yet, not a lot has been shown. And that is true, not a lot has been shown besides the changes in art direction, the 'vision', the announced X box version, and purposefully handicapping your UI and control scheme to fit a console. But what bothers me more is that not a lot has been shown precisely because, in half a years time or more, when it finally gets its big reveal and all the journos come piling in to cover this game in development, that yes it will be basically XCOM 3, a safe, Mass Effect clean scifi-looking, consolized, casualized, retarded, 'streamlined and accessible' product that would appeal more to the mass market of short attention span little Timmies.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[Grotesque]

Apart from missing hotkeys, the problem back then was lack of tooltips to some degree but mostly lack of context sensivity.

First X-COM game I played was TFTD and it was a pirated version which came with no manual of course.
I looked at the UI and asked myself what all these buttons do. In about one hour the UI held no enigmas.
So I guess the only condition to unravel an UI (even an old one) is not to be retarded and/or bred in a culture where hand-holding is ossified.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

Apart from missing hotkeys, the problem back then was lack of tooltips to some degree but mostly lack of context sensivity.

First X-COM game I played was TFTD and it was a pirated version which came with no manual of course.
I looked at the UI and asked myself what all these buttons do. In about one hour the UI held no enigmas.
So I guess the only condition to unravel an UI (even an old one) is not to be retarded and/or bred in a culture where hand-holding is ossified.

I can understand having a simple user interface that you don't have to fight with. A lot of my older amiga games have wretched interfaces. I was playing Populous 2 and fuck me that sub-windows 3.1 interface would never work nowadays. With Xcom, as Grotesque said you could figure the whole thing out in an hour. It was beautifully simple. But it was designed for a PC game. So they had wiggle room to make something nice. Something that is developed with 14 buttons on a bit of colourful plastic at least as an option needs to work for those 14 buttons. No more. You suddenly can't assume everyone will have access to a keyboard or be close enough to the screen to see small icons. So you have to have fewer things to press and make sure you have large buttons that take up more real estate.

We didn't want this. Gollop acknowledged we didn't want this and then made the deal for an Xbox port with no communication beforehand. Why is it so hard to understand why that might piss people off?