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KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

Mustawd

Guest
Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.
Feel free to ignore me than.

Look, I’m just saying. You said it. You’ve said it 20 times. We pointed out to you, clearly, the many times XCOM was mentioned in the fig pitch. You still continue on. Now your new thing is “you never told us how much x-com/xcom it would be”? Give me a break man.


Do you really think anyone here is convinced by the 25th time?

I think you make good posts, I’m just tired of hearing the same thing because you’re butthurt Julian isn’t making it more x-com. What did you expect?

He clearly has wanted to make an X-comish game. He’s said so countless times. He’s said countless times that Firaxis opened up the doors to him making PP. He’s written that XCOM created a new genre. He’s heaped tons of praise on Solomon in multiple interviews.

Look, I get the passion, as X-com is probably my fav PC game, but cmon man. You make yourself look foolish with multiple “but they lied to us” retarded statements. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d rather discuss the game they are making rather than the one I wish they made.
 

PanteraNera

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Messages
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Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.
Feel free to ignore me than.

Look, I’m just saying. You said it. You’ve said it 20 times. We pointed out to you, clearly, the many times XCOM was mentioned in the fig pitch. You still continue on. Now your new thing is “you never told us how much x-com/xcom it would be”? Give me a break man.


Do you really think anyone here is convinced by the 25th time?

I think you make good posts, I’m just tired of hearing the same thing because you’re butthurt Julian isn’t making it more x-com. What did you expect?

He clearly has wanted to make an X-comish game. He’s said so countless times. He’s said countless times that Firaxis opened up the doors to him making PP. He’s written that XCOM created a new genre. He’s heaped tons of praise on Solomon in multiple interviews.

Look, I get the passion, as X-com is probably my fav PC game, but cmon man. You make yourself look foolish with multiple “but they lied to us” retarded statements. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d rather discuss the game they are making rather than the one I wish they made.

If you had read my last (long) post you would know that I actually confirmed in this thread that I have made wrong assumptions.

Also I mainly post and talk about things that got posted on discord.

I still think it is a valid point, to point out (if it comes up) that with the information given there is no way a potential customer can tell how much the final game will be X-Com or XCOM. And yes the game is in development that might change.

I think that you for example believe that the game will be very XCOMish. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. I am not arguing with you about that and just take it as it is, as you perception. You can do the same with my perception. Than we do not need to talk about something we already know of each other.

Maybe even you might be surprised in the end if PP might be more X-Com'ish than you expect it to be. Maybe it is because these three guys keep talking about it itt and UnstableVoltage is forwarding it to the dev's. (I don't believe this myself, but I thought since you are bullshitting -> deception I join in).

I can live with looking foolish to you, I am not on the codex to win a popularity-contest.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
What kind of sensei wouldn't give a doubtful frown when confronted with a new student that gives enthusiastic affirmative consent, that he'll masters all that there is to teach?

Nah, you're doing good work. Traits that makes person good on one-liners might be directly opposed to traits that makes 'em good on giving detail oriented analysis like you're done .re Phoenix Point.

As for me I'm waiting for backer version before voicing my opinions. Those may very probably be things like "REEEEE" or "NO GOD, PLEASE GOD NO!", but I never put money into crowdfunding that I'm not willing to lose. I don't even regret money that I gave for Torment: Tides of Nemomalaria
bare minimum to get the game
, however un-inspired banal boring shit the game itself turned out to be.
 

PanteraNera

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Messages
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What kind of sensei wouldn't give a doubtful frown when confronted with a new student that gives enthusiastic affirmative consent, that he'll masters all that there is to teach?
Sensei, it would probably be an person not worth being addressed Sensei.

Nah, you're doing good work. Traits that makes person good on one-liners might be directly opposed to traits that makes 'em good on giving detail oriented analysis like you're done .re Phoenix Point.
Hm, thank you for the kind words :)
I think once my english has improved by a lot (there is still many words I have to look up in a dictionary and if there was not auto-correct probably nobody could possibly understand my messages) my posts will get more compressed. See usually I talk about something in my native language, instead with english I often feel like to talk around something.

As for me I'm waiting for backer version before voicing my opinions. Those may very probably be things like "REEEEE" or "NO GOD, PLEASE GOD NO!", but I never put money into crowdfunding that I'm not willing to lose.
Probably contrary to popular belief I also look forward for the backer build one. It can easily disprove any wrong assumptions I might made.

People that think that I just hate the game are just stupid, as if I did so, I wouldn't know as much as I do, especially regarding the lore. Actually I am still excited for the game, what I am still fabulously optimistic about is the mature tone they are going for and the lore / world-building. I think the mutation-system will be amazing, interesting and feeling really fresh. I hope that the geoscape will be as amazing as Julian made it sound. And still there is minor hope that the tactical-gameplay is better if you actually play it, than if you just watch it. Also there still is time for change. The bummer hanging in the air is in UV's words "all is subject to change" so everything can change to the better or the worse. And as I have pointed out in the past, there seems to be a lot of change to the worse, at least in my personal opinion.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
waxonwaxoff_3986.jpg
 

PanteraNera

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Community manager turning sour on the community, that usually never ends well.

That is the thing, I do not think that UnstableVoltage actually understands the consequences of his doing. Stating that it is his personal opinion does little here, as he freely has stated in what I quoted that he is holding back on concept and other stuff because of negativity (criticism). That is easily perceived as a threat and in fact is one (I believe that he has not intended to do so). I am sure that people on discord, that rarely voice their opinion, will do so even less, because "negativity" equals not getting information/concept art. And that is probably the main reason why people joined the discord and formed an community there.

On the subject per se, I actually understand both parties, what UnstableVoltage had said is not wrong, just out of place if you keep the context in mind (business-customer). The guy criticizing made a valid point, PP aims to be believable at least it was perceived like that for the most time. AllenStoud the lead writer would have handled the situation probably way better, in stating something like "I really appreciate it that the Mech-design made you think so deeply about it". That is PR / customer-management done rightly. Personally I do not care about what the guy said, but when I was 20 years younger I was a big realism advocate.

What I think is sad is if I am right and Snapshot is not able to deliver on Q4 2018 and needs additional founding, things like that will not help in raising funds. It is not this one incident, but many smaller ones. Honestly it was no surprise to me.

Also I was considering about not talking about this here, as I feared it could back-lash in less information and concept shared. Than I thought about it for an minute and came to the conclusion that it is an empty threat, as the only one it hurts in the end would be Snapshot Games. You need something to keep people interested and actually having a working community on discord is quiet useful. Risking that would be very unwise.

I really meant it when I said earlier that I do not want to be in UnstableVoltage shoes. Either if he is releasing information and concept or not is wrong. But that is just a wrong perception. If there is something off, people will always find out. If for example the look of certain elements have changed a lot from what was originally shown, it will be known once the game got released. There is actually the usefulness of crowdfunded projects, because ideally you have the option to fix things like that if there is a need to. I would say it is wise to go with the majority (I am saying that knowingly regarding X-Com aspects, that are not as popular as I wish).

Also admitting that some thing was wrong and finding a solution for it raises confidence.

The other thing is what I have talked about way earlier, being responsible and acting like a grown up. All this defensiveness and victimhood is not raising confidence or being productive or professional. Productive would be to ask yourself, "what have I done, that this situation has occurred" and than actively working towards a solution. What I often see with him is not pro-activity but reactivity which puts him in a weaker position from the beginning.

Like I said, I really believe that his intentions are good, but just that he is not up for the job. I am sure he does a shitload of work, I see it on facebook on the comments he is answering, I would never say he is lazy, but just not very good at handling situations with customers. But that is a pretty big deal if you are the middleman between the dev's and the players.

If you are completely alien to one side (the people that crowdfunded the project) it is pretty hard to be a middleman, and being alien to them is the main message UV transported in his "personal opinion" about criticism.
 

agris

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PanteraNera I'm only posting this because you previously said English isn't your first language and that you often feel like you're talking around a point, rather than directly to it.

I think a better way to phrase your last point is: You feel as if UnstableVoltage's role should be an advocate for both the community and the developer, but you feel that his prior statements reveal disdain towards community feedback. Thus, I believe you are saying, this disdain makes it hard for him to honestly communicate to the developers the thoughts of the community.
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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PanteraNera I'm only posting this because you previously said English isn't your first language and that you often feel like you're talking around a point, rather than directly to it.

I think a better way to phrase your last point is: You feel as if UnstableVoltage's role should be an advocate for both the community and the developer, but you feel that his prior statements reveal disdain towards community feedback. Thus, I believe you are saying, this disdain makes it hard for him to honestly communicate to the developers the thoughts of the community.
I actually try to be as neutral as possible. I do think you guys here have made some good points. Things that I have gone directly to Julian with - like pushing for multiple shots per turn to make it more "X-Com-like". It is now being tested. That doesn't mean it's going to make it in - but at least it is being considered for viability. Try not to take things out of context so much.

I will freely admit that this is my first tenure as a Community Manager (though I have over 16 years experience in retail management and customer service among other things). I took this position as prior to joining, Snapshot had little to no communication with the community. I take all the feedback that I see, and I make sure it is acknowledged. I also communicate as much information as I am able about what is happening with development. I try to be frank and honest and not just feed "PR talk". I could just as easily do that, and give vetted "PR safe" answers to every question - but I'm sure you all know from experience that those sort of answers dance around questions/issues and tell you nothing.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
You cannot both complain that development does not happen behind closed doors anymore and ask fans to crowdfund the game at the same time. It is one or the other.
Regarding fan feedback, you (as a CM) could read a book of lenses: It is a book about GD, but it might help you identify whow to listen to feedback (aka not take it at face value, but try to determine the reason behind people giving the fedback you got).

Now, I personnaly don't think the removal of TU or ammo were significant problems in nuXCOM (compared to butchering the geoscape, the pod mechanism, and the focus on making troopers survive as opposed to sending lots of bodies to solve most problems).

Also, discussions would be much more constructive with a demo out.
 

agris

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PanteraNera I'm only posting this because you previously said English isn't your first language and that you often feel like you're talking around a point, rather than directly to it.

I think a better way to phrase your last point is: You feel as if UnstableVoltage's role should be an advocate for both the community and the developer, but you feel that his prior statements reveal disdain towards community feedback. Thus, I believe you are saying, this disdain makes it hard for him to honestly communicate to the developers the thoughts of the community.
I actually try to be as neutral as possible. I do think you guys here have made some good points. Things that I have gone directly to Julian with - like pushing for multiple shots per turn to make it more "X-Com-like". It is now being tested. That doesn't mean it's going to make it in - but at least it is being considered for viability. Try not to take things out of context so much.

I will freely admit that this is my first tenure as a Community Manager (though I have over 16 years experience in retail management and customer service among other things). I took this position as prior to joining, Snapshot had little to no communication with the community. I take all the feedback that I see, and I make sure it is acknowledged. I also communicate as much information as I am able about what is happening with development. I try to be frank and honest and not just feed "PR talk". I could just as easily do that, and give vetted "PR safe" answers to every question - but I'm sure you all know from experience that those sort of answers dance around questions/issues and tell you nothing.

Thanks for staying engaged :salute:

Aside: having worked in retail and CS, you must be very familiar with entitled customers. That must have helped you prepare for your new role!
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I recommend not playing the entitlement card though, especially when you still rely on the "armchair game design" community for money and support.
 

Mustawd

Guest
I still think it is a valid point, to point out (if it comes up) that with the information given there is no way a potential customer can tell how much the final game will be X-Com or XCOM. And yes the game is in development that might change.

My point has always been that there is no way to know for sure, but that given the evidence it's hard to imagine it wasn't going to be heavily XCOMish.

But to accuse them outright of being deceitful when there has been plenty of evidence otherwise, I think is very unfair.

Anyhow, I do share a lot of your opinions on the game and I do wish it was more X-comish. Let's see what we get. At worst, we'll get a more complex XCOM. And seeing that I liked XCOM,. then I'm ok with this. And I still have Xenonauts 1 and 2 to play, as well as Open X-Com.

At best, it's a lot more X-com than we imagine. Which of course would be great.
 

PanteraNera

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I think a better way to phrase your last point is: You feel as if UnstableVoltage's role should be an advocate for both the community and the developer, but you feel that his prior statements reveal disdain towards community feedback. Thus, I believe you are saying, this disdain makes it hard for him to honestly communicate to the developers the thoughts of the community.
Much appreciated! You are very welcome to do that again ;)

I feel as if UnstableVoltage's role should be an advocate for both the community and the developer, but I feel that his prior statements reveal disdain towards community feedback and is creating an unsafe environment for feedback.

I actually try to be as neutral as possible.
Keep trying ;)

Try not to take things out of context so much.
Try to point it out if you feel that something is out of context. Also at least try to verify if it really is out of context. Provide additional information.

As a side note, not answering to questions also leads to new assumptions, that doesn't settle matters.

I will freely admit that this is my first tenure as a Community Manager
Thank you for being honest.

I try to be frank and honest and not just feed "PR talk". I could just as easily do that, and give vetted "PR safe" answers to every question - but I'm sure you all know from experience that those sort of answers dance around questions/issues and tell you nothing.
Honestly, I worked years in marketing and was up to recently solely responsible for PR of a small organisation. If you do neither have the "gift" of handling people nor the psychological background and basic understanding of causality, than please please do PR talk. Ultimately PR-talk is just a tool and as that nothing bad. It is of importance for what purpose you use the tool. Doing defensive PR talk is less harmful than just being defensive.

Excuses don't bring you far, as I said before, people will lose confidence in you. Solutions are what matters.
Keep in mind that people you interact with either already spend money on the project your working at, or might potentially spend money.

(aka not take it at face value, but try to determine the reason behind people giving the fedback you got).
Excellent feedback!
 

PanteraNera

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But to accuse them outright of being deceitful when there has been plenty of evidence otherwise, I think is very unfair.
What evidence?

I never intended to accuse them of being deceitful. I am sorry if I had exaggerated to much and / or used the wrong words.

Still my opinion stands, there was at least some ambiguity going on. I have posted references to that several times.
 

Mustawd

Guest
What evidence?

Wot? I posted plenty of examples where XOCM and XCOM mechanics were mentioned in the fig pitch....

I never intended to accuse them of being deceitful. I am sorry if I had exaggerated to much and / or used the wrong words.

Well, that's the impression I got. If you're saying that's not your intention, then I'll take you at your word.

Still my opinion stands, there was at least some ambiguity going on. I have posted references to that several times..

I think that's true both out of necessity (as development can change over time) and the nature of marketing (promising something vague is likely more successful than promising something concrete).

I kind of take the latter as the nature of marketing and sales. I remember working in telemarketing, which is probably one of the shadiest businesses ever, and our trainer saying "our job is to CREATE a desire for our product.". Aka, not having honest conversation and using rebuttals even when someone says "i'm not interested"

My point is that sales has always been about selling an idea instead of something concrete. Being vague is practical but also is a way to help bring in ppl who would otherwise be opposed to your product.

Anyhow, PP isn't a bad as an example as the one I provided from my experience, but in sales broad strokes are always used instead of specifics. It's the nature of the beast. I always keep that in mind when purchasing anything.
 

PanteraNera

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Well, that's the impression I got. If you're saying that's not your intention, then I'll take you at your word.
Hmmm, maybe it has to do with my wording, when ever I say "I believe" it is purposely used to say "I do not know".

I think that's true both out of necessity (as development can change over time) and the nature of marketing (promising something vague is likely more successful than promising something concrete).

I kind of take the latter as the nature of marketing and sales. I remember working in telemarketing, which is probably one of the shadiest businesses ever, and our trainer saying "our job is to CREATE a desire for our product.". Aka, not having honest conversation and using rebuttals even when someone says "i'm not interested"

My point is that sales has always been about selling an idea instead of something concrete. Being vague is practical but also is a way to help bring in ppl who would otherwise be opposed to your product.

Anyhow, PP isn't a bad as an example as the one I provided from my experience, but in sales broad strokes are always used instead of specifics. It's the nature of the beast. I always keep that in mind when purchasing anything.
Thanks for sharing mustawd :)

I also have worked in direct marketing and even worse, insurances :D

Oh, I have to confess, even while I know the tricks, I keep falling for them.
Actually in one company it was explained like that "a good salesman excites a customer, most that are good at that are themself easily excited"
So true, I remember how I sold the most expensive product on the door to my later to be boss that recruited me to work for his insurance agency, as he was impressed that I made him buy that crap ;)
 

Grotesque

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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.
Feel free to ignore me than.

Look, I’m just saying. You said it. You’ve said it 20 times. We pointed out to you, clearly, the many times XCOM was mentioned in the fig pitch. You still continue on. Now your new thing is “you never told us how much x-com/xcom it would be”? Give me a break man.


Do you really think anyone here is convinced by the 25th time?

I think you make good posts, I’m just tired of hearing the same thing because you’re butthurt Julian isn’t making it more x-com. What did you expect?

He clearly has wanted to make an X-comish game. He’s said so countless times. He’s said countless times that Firaxis opened up the doors to him making PP. He’s written that XCOM created a new genre. He’s heaped tons of praise on Solomon in multiple interviews.

Look, I get the passion, as X-com is probably my fav PC game, but cmon man. You make yourself look foolish with multiple “but they lied to us” retarded statements. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d rather discuss the game they are making rather than the one I wish they made.


Good riddance to the 2-3 people retarded club around here founded by ArchAngel and Mazisky.
All you can hope for from now on is that one day they'll make you partner.
 

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