Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Lacrymas]

The two really big problems of PoE1's combat system are it's too fast and unstructured due to the varying recovery penalties and the AI is pretty stupid. It could've been more elegant, but in the end I think it's engaging. Without a Priest and Cipher. What exactly don't you like about it?

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Mostly that it revolves around mechanic ideas that are clearly Josh's pet ideas, but don't make much sense and/or are kind of pointless. Muscle wizards for example - which I hated from the beginning and was the point I knew something was very wrong in the development.

Lots of buffs/debuff focused spells and abilities. Not enough different or interesting attack spells and not enough rock/paper/scissor spell protections and mechanics.

In BG2 Disintegrate was instadeath and destroyed most of the target's items (except for gold and quest items). In PoE, it does 240 damage over time. Wew.

There are some good ideas, but most aren't really new. And for all of Josh's "balance" I think a lot had to be fixed via patches.

 

[Background Character]

It's just me or all the godlikes can multiclass to chanter?

 

[Lacrymas]

Muscle Wizards aren't part of the combat, though. The whole idea behind that is every stat is somehow valuable, it didn't end up like that (CON and RES got relegated to dump stats), but that's besides the point. There are a lot of interesting attack spells, Pull of Eora, Kalakoth's Minor Blights (personal favorite), the tentacle spell, Wall of Many Colors, Concelhaut's Crushing Doom etc. There are rock/paper/scissor spell mechanics, so I don't know what you mean by "not enough".

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Muscle Wizards aren't part of the combat, though.

They are, but my point i mentioning it was that it was a dumb idea that was clearly his pet idea.

The whole idea behind that is every stat is somehow valuable

I know. Which is also boring and not fun. Because it was so tryhard that it didn't even make sense. Not every stat has to be valuable to every player in every situation.

it didn't end up like that (CON and RES got relegated to dump stats), but that's besides the point.

No, it's exactly the point. It was poorly balanced even with so much time/effort wasted on "balance".

There are rock/paper/scissor spell mechanics, so I don't know what you mean by "not enough".

What's a wizard spell that makes the caster immune to spells of a certain level? Are there any?

There's only 4 or so wizard spells that I would even call proper spell protections off hand. (But then, I didn't play as a wizard and this is just from me doing a quick search through the wiki.) And I'm including elemental buffs that perhaps shouldn't be counted.

The BG series has a wide range of spell protections and using them and removing them enemies added a great deal of complexity to the game. That just doesn't seem to be there in PoE.

 

[Lacrymas]

The stat is named Might and it refers to soul power, not to physical strength. Either way, you aren't thinking constantly "man, this Might stat is constantly in the way of my enjoyment of the combat as I'm playing". And you even said you didn't play a Wizard, soooo no idea what to think about that. Seems trivial.

Not every stat has to be valuable to every player in every situation.

That is not the idea and it's not even true. It was supposed to give you enough options to do whatever you wanted and have the stats reflect that in certain circumstances. It was never about all stats being equally valuable in all situations. Even with that in mind, CON and RES just became dump stats for the vast majority of builds, but you certainly could use them in some builds.

What's a wizard spell that makes the caster immune to spells of a certain level? Are there any?

Arcane Reflection.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

The stat is named Might and it refers to soul power, not to physical strength.

Which was a cop out after everyone nearly laughed Sawyer off the internet for his rediculous muscle wizards idea.

Either way, you aren't thinking constantly

Did I say you were? Again, just an example of a dumb idea. 2nd time I've said it. Is that so difficult to understand?

you even said you didn't play a Wizard, soooo no idea what to think about that. Seems trivial.

I didn't play a wizard because I looked at the class beforehand and it seemed boring. I wanted to get an idea of whether or not the story was interesting before suffering through a game with a boring spell system using a wizard. Spoiler: the story bored me too.

That is not the idea and it's not even true.

It was the idea. Maybe not in literally every situation (ffs, don't be autistic), but Sawyer went on a whole rant on how he didn't want stats to be useless for certain characters. Hence muscle wizards, smart barbarians etc.

Lets quit wasting time on semantics.

Arcane Reflection.

I said block, not reflect. There's also the minor version of this spell.

And what spells remove this?

Look, if there's a whole list of protection and protection removing spells like in BG2, then list them, don't just tell me one spell.

So far, all I count are the two reflection spells and the two shield spells.

The Bulwark Against The Elements spells really are more buffs in my mind, though the higher one offers 100 point protection. They easily could have been broken into different spells for each element at the lower levels, which would have made them a little more interesting. Maybe even applied as percent protection instead of point.

 

[FreeKaner]

When is the complete edition.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

One of the reasons why Baldur's Gate is so good is the lore of the Forgotten Realms setting. Mostly standard fantasy stuff, but there is tons of it and it's actually pretty good.

You could say that the main character in Baldur's Gate or even Planetscape: Tournament was the world itself.

I disagree about BG, Forgotten Realms setting definitely NOT main character and was poorly ntroduced. Setting itself have some good books, but as you said it mostly standard fantasy world, which stuck in endless Middle Age like circle jerk (as much I remember world still not in the Age of Industrialization). In Planescape: Torment (why the fuck many people calling it Planescape: Tournament is a mystery) setting was introduced better in my opinion and more interesting in terms of cosmology.

 

[Lacrymas]

Lets quit wasting time on semantics.

I said block, not reflect. There's also the minor version of this spell.

Funny.

And what spells remove this?

Arcane Dampener

Look, if there's a whole list of protection and protection removing spells like in BG2, then list them, don't just tell me one spell.

There are a lot of protection spells, not only in the Wizard list, but also in the other classes'. There are also a lot of removal spells, but they mostly revolve around debuffs and buffs, as opposed to specific kinds of protections, but this also seems like semantics.

The list for Wizards would be - Llengrath's shields, the arcane reflections, Fire Shield, Llengrath's Safeguard, Bulwark against the Elements and its higher level version, Wizard's Double, Llengrath's Siphoning Image, Spirit Shield, Llengrath's Displaced Image, Ironskin. The removal spells for Wizards specifically are the one I already linked and Wall of Draining.

You also don't seem to realize there are other classes in the game besides Wizards, focusing on them and their rock/paper/scissor thing seems short-sighted and nitpicky.

All of your complaints are unsubstantial. The muscle Wizard thing is so trivial and I don't even understand why it's such a big deal, it certainly isn't for me. The stats don't work the way you are saying and it seems like you made-up some kind of scenario in your mind that doesn't actually exist.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

And what spells remove this?

Arcane Dampener

One spell.

It's like Sawyer saw the spell protection system in BG2 and said "BALANCE IT" and simplified it to the point to where it isn't fun anymore.

These two spells are like half of BG2's protection and protection removal spells compressed together.

The same with the shield spells.

There are also a lot of removal spells, but they mostly revolve around debuffs and buffs

Which was my point.

but this also seems like semantics.

No, it was the exact point of what I was saying.

The list for Wizards would be - Llengrath's shields, the arcane reflections

Fixed.

Like I said, buffs/debuffs are boring. Go hard or go home.

You also don't seem to realize there are other classes in the game besides Wizards, focusing on them and their rock/paper/scissor thing seems short-sighted and nitpicky.

Well, it's another example of poor design decisions. Also, this game was supposed to be in the spirit of the BG series. That's what they sold us on and that's who became interested in it - bg fans.

The RPS spell mechanics were one of the things I enjoyed most about the BG series, so the lame implementation of the wizard spell system is a pretty big issue for me.

I kind of doubt the other classes' spell systems are much different, Cypher seemed pretty lame too but whatever. You want to sell me on them, go for broke.

All of your complaints are unsubstantial.

I don't like a video game you like. I know this is difficult, but I'm here to talk you through it.

The muscle Wizard thing is so trivial and I don't even understand why it's such a big deal, it certainly isn't for me.

3rd time now: it was an example of Josh's dumb pet ideas affecting game design. Let me know if you need a dictionary.com link for "example".

The stats don't work the way you are saying and it seems like you made-up some kind of scenario in your mind that doesn't actually exist.

Ok.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok, I get it, you denigrate the entire system because there isn't the exact same copy of the IE games' mage duels, that's fine. I wouldn't say I particularly like PoE1, I ...appreciate it.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

isn't the exact same copy of the IE games' mage duels

Exaggeration. Again, Josh oversimplified the good aspects until it wasn't fun and added in his own dumb ideas.

The result is a system that just isn't fun or interesting.

I wouldn't say I particularly like PoE1, I ...appreciate it.

Which is a pretty autistic answer, but whatever. Good for you. Appreciate away.

 

[MajorMace]

Pillars games seem...soulless.

PoE1 had a soul, just not in the usual places. This might come off as uncharacteristic of me, but I ...appreciate PoE1 and think it's worth playing. If you want it to engage you with its narrative elements, that won't happen, it just isn't good and that's why most people are put off by the game. The beginning is shit, the middle is shit and the end is shit with almost no respite. The redeeming quality of the game is actually the combat, despite my usual critical opinion of it I think it's more than playable, it's engaging. In certain circumstances of course, but still. The effort Josh put into it really shines through and we do it a disservice by not acknowledging that.

PoE2, paradoxically, is much more soulless in that "fine in a lot of ways, but nothing special" deal. It's functional, but that's it. I actually think PoE1 is going to be remembered more fondly than 2. 2 still is the better overall game, but feels surgically engineered and trivial.

After a few months of rest, I actually kind of agree with that.
If you meant to say that the first game, albeit less enjoyable overall as a crpg experience (or as a game, plain and simple), had more personality.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

It's sad that BG style mage duels don't exist, but at least PoE druids are better than mostly lame BG druids. Earth's Maw is great. Also wizards do at least get Chill Fog and Ninagauth's Shadowflame, Pull of Eora... it's not a total wipe. I still think they should have just allowed Wizaards to be the strongest high level class and included crazy stuff liek Timestop.

 

[FreeKaner]

PoE series is incredibly UScentric. It's deeply seated in modern American perception of history, and America's view of European countries and their colonies in-so-far they relate to America's past in Europe, wrapped in American stereotypes of outside world and concept of pseudo-scientific race-"realism". It's a fire lit aflame by prejudices poured into the most shallow of colonialist narratives in a dumpster, a true dumpsterfire of worst of exceptionalism and cultural biases put together.

I strongly condemn participation in it.

 

[Lacrymas]

The result is a system that just isn't fun or interesting.

I find the combat system interesting and engaging. With a few asterisks here and there.

After a few months of rest, I actually kind of agree with that.
If you meant to say that the first game, albeit less enjoyable overall as a crpg experience (or as a game, plain and simple), had more personality.

It only has more personality insofar as Josh's obsessive tweaking of the combat system, and there is virtually no other reason to play PoE1. PoE2's combat system suffers from many more issues that they don't seem to be in the process of refining. It basically turned out exactly as I had foreseen it would and that's not a good thing. PoE2 seems functional, I really can't muster any in-depth thoughts or feelings about it. There's this curious thing where you don't seem to notice stuff that's just working the way it's supposed to. It has to be either bad or somehow better than average. People are hung up on PoE2's story because it's shit, they also seem to notice a few quests here and there, yet there is no massive outcry or praise either way. Even Roxor said he isn't looking forward to writing a review because there isn't much to say about the game and it'll neutral-positive.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I still think they should have just allowed Wizaards to be the strongest high level class and included crazy stuff liek Timestop.

Half the fun of the wizard class in any decent RPG is the absurdly weak start and eventually gaining access to spells that make you virtually a walking, talking ICBM.

Wizards are a fun class because they can wreck everyone and simultaneously get wrecked if they don't think carefully and/or bring proper meat shields to let them finish casting their absurdly long spells. Magic itself is simply no fun when "balanced".

 

[Maculo]

So what is the consensus? Decent, but buggy?

I am not going to be able to touch PoE2 or the xpacs for awhile.

Edit: Lacrymas, are you still experimenting with Priest of Skaen builds? I read an interesting suggestion for a Priest of Skaen/Assassin build that makes use of the automatic Priest of Skaen spells. You cast Shadowing Beyond (invisibility) > Litany of Spirit > Triumph of the Crusader (200 hp heal per kill) > Weapon of Faith and then spam rogue abilities.

 

[MajorMace]

It only has more personality insofar as Josh's obsessive tweaking of the combat system, and there is virtually no other reason to play PoE1. PoE2's combat system suffers from many more issues that they don't seem to be in the process of refining. It basically turned out exactly as I had foreseen it would and that's not a good thing. PoE2 seems functional, I really can't muster any in-depth thoughts or feelings about it. There's this curious thing where you don't seem to notice stuff that's just working the way it's supposed to. It has to be either bad or somehow better than average. People are hung up on PoE2's story because it's shit, they also seem to notice a few quests here and there, yet there is no massive outcry or praise either way. Even Roxor said he isn't looking forward to writing a review because there isn't much to say about the game and it'll neutral-positive.

Oh personality has little to do with quality anyway. As you say, the first one's seems to fascinatingly reflect its director's (flawed, we'd say) vision of the genre and how to make a crpg in 2015. The 2.5% bonii here and there, which are also in deadfire but to a lesser extent, or the tier-organised itemisation in a single player fantasy game are quite recognizable traits.
Like "hey look, that's this good ol' poe1 and its retarded concepts". Ironically, it makes it more distinguishable.

 

[Strange Fellow]

tier-organised itemisation in a single player fantasy game

Yes, imagine if BG had had this, indicated by, say, a +[#] suffix to the names of weapons

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

I still think they should have just allowed Wizaards to be the strongest high level class and included crazy stuff liek Timestop.

Half the fun of the wizard class in any decent RPG is the absurdly weak start and eventually gaining access to spells that make you virtually a walking, talking ICBM.

Wizards are a fun class because they can wreck everyone and simultaneously get wrecked if they don't think carefully and/or bring proper meat shields to let them finish casting their absurdly long spells. Magic itself is simply no fun when "balanced".

And I definitely prefer warriors that just hit things with weapons. Can't stand these abilities everywhere it's simply irritating. if you want knockdown or parry or whatever, why not make them passives with a chance to proc?

 

[Azarkon]

Who would you have me cite that isn't going to get me accused of barely passing Lit 101? Mallarmé, who is irrelevant? Or Sarah Kane? This is precisely why we can't get anywhere with any conversation, every time we bring up examples of good writing, we are accused of all kinds of things. And where would I find the entire script of good written games so I can cite them sentence by sentence? Most well-written games aren't so because of their sentence structure or good use of adverbs or adjectives, it's the overall form, characters and logical progression of events.

The closest medium to video games story telling isn't literature or poetry, it's film making. Yet, citing French post-modernist art house cinema for examples of excellent film making is not appropriate, nor do the masters of film fill their works with literary writing in an attempt to elevate the artistic value. The fact is, video games, like film, are popular entertainment, and I feel confident that 99.999% of its audience aren't looking for the game writing equivalent of T. S. Eliot or any of a vast array of works in the Western Canon.

To draw a lesson from film, what is considered high art in film are much more accessible than what is considered high literature. Stanley Kubrick's 2001 is as eminently regarded in film education as James Joyce's Ulysses is in literary education, but 2001 is exponentially more accessible to the average person, so much so that a dudebro can enjoy it with a little bit of effort. The same rule applies to almost any classic comparison between the two mediums. As a rule, high literature is dense, inaccessible, and dry to all but dedicated students of the form. Not so for film, where your average fan could enjoy a high concept piece like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind or a post-structuralist mystery like Memento without too much trouble.

It's similar for video games. Though there are people who would claim that games have yet to reach any sort of artistic height, I see no reason to believe that high art in video games should be as dense, inaccessible, and dry as high literature, when there is a perfectly valid model in film. So when people cite authors like T. S. Eliot or Dostoevsky, or obscure literary authors of a similar caliber, for examples of excellent writing that video games ought to emulate, it comes off as naive, pretentious snobbery. I don't want to see, and I doubt anyone actually wants to see, T. S. Eliot style writing in video games. Maybe in isolated, easily skipped segments, but then that defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

 

[aweigh]

so i've been sporadically playing off and on and i gotta say the game is much more enjoyable when you learn to use the behavior editor.

making stuff like healing potion usage (and/or second wind) and other crap like automating switching between melee and range to be completely automated is a fucking godsend that eliminates the tedious clicking a lot.

EDIT: by the way the necessity for alleviating the tedium of weapon switching in poe2 comes from the introduction of melee range penalties on weapons in this sequel which is something that simply is not fun at all in a real-time game like this.

I've heard a lot of bitching about the behavior editor here but from the usage i'm doing it's been working just dandy for me, although i am using the increased AI conditions mod (as any sane person should).

 

[Tigranes]

I always wondered why people hate RTwP so much. There's obviously very sound objections to be made from a systems viewpoint, and I agree that TB is generally superior. But it also seems like some people just have a really hard time handling RTwP party combat, and/or really hate pausing for some crazy reason, and so either they play it as a complete clusterfuck, or end up using AI (which just makes it super boring, as 95% of the combat is now done without you). I mean, if you can't switch your bow to your sword, or you can't notice your mage has finished casting spells without autopause, even with slow motion mode...

That's not to say 'git gud', but personally, I feel like either you pause all the time and micromanage and get fun from that, or if that isn't enjoyable to you, RTwP combat surely isn't worth bothering with at all.