Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Prime Junta]

Yep, the BoW end fights are retarded. Stupid high defences and mountains of HP. Thing just drags on and on and on.

 

[Infinitron]

Remember what I said about games that are perceived as low-rent clones getting negative reviews? Well there's nothing that's more of a low-rent clone of a game than its own DLC. Mainstream media is highly unsuited to reviewing this kind of DLC - White March got bad reviews also.

 

[Grunker]

Remember what I said about games that are perceived as low-rent clones getting negative reviews? Well there's nothing that's more of a low-rent clone of a game than its own DLC. Mainstream media is highly unsuited to reviewing this kind of DLC - White March got bad reviews also.

White March was excellent. Better than excellent. Downright fantastic, outshining the main game by A LOT. Beast of Winter... is not. It's not bad, it's just decidedly average and a clear downgrade on the main game.

 

[AwesomeButton]

lol, I literally can't beat Neriscyrlas. It's not that it kills me. Quite the contrary. It's that once I get Neriscyrlas to the 50% hp trigger where she activates Llengrath's Safeguard, neither of us can kill the other. After 30 full minutes on the final try I just went fuck it. I can get her to about 25% at which point she heals back up.

I'm sorry but the encounter design in this DLC went down the drain. I don't mind losing to a build/gear/level/tactics check by being raped, but it speaks to a flaw when neither side can hurt the other. Most fights in the DLC (again, excepting the frost shades which were cool) have been push-overs, but very long push-overs due to mob-tankyness.

A far cry from White March's first, excellent dragon fight that had you juggling scary, jumpy adds while you attempted to decide what you focused on meanwhile having to kill the dragon itself fast enough to avoid getting AoE'd to death.

Hm, apparently it gets silly when played on PotD. I had no issues whatsoever on Hard.

 

[Lacrymas]

Maybe it wouldn't have been a problem had Arcane Dampener or Deprive the Unworthy not had Accuracy and just worked outright, maybe with a reduced duration.

 

[Tigranes]

I've heard mostly positive things about the DLCs, but regarding those big set piece fights - do you think it's because they just didn't design the critter as well as, say, the Adra Dragon or WM fights, or is it because of the limitations in the Deadfire mechanics?

The accuracy/defences and the lack of 'killer' dispels part hasn't really changed between 1 & 2 though.

I'm playing through POE1 now, and honestly, I really like how the two games scratch very different kinds of murderhobo itches. It's refreshing not to have multiclass and to go through BG1-style maps and have some vestige of Vancian / resting systems, etc.

 

[Grunker]

It's just design of the encounters. I've had many satisfying battles so far. I think maybe they wanted to avoid exploits which could turn the major battles of PoE1 into trivialities. So they overtuned defences, meaning they couldn't stack the damage output too high and there you have it: big, tanky monsters.

Admittedly my setup is build around grindy fights which I find fun, so it probably doesn't happen to everybody (I suspect many people get killed if they or their builds are too inefficient), but I can't imagine this being a particularly fun fight in any case. If you got the damage, you've got the damage. As long as you've given a bit of mobility to your squishies and you have a decent tank, I don't see what could make the encounter interesting.

Fortunately it seems you can leave and come back later, so I guess I'll just return overleveled. But compared to the main content and especially compared to White March, this is pretty unsatisfying.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Meanwhile, I clawed my way out of Poko Kohara and now I'm thinking that going there pretty much saved my party and the playthrough.

It's funny that however you resolve that quest, you get XP from both factions who charged you with going there. The money they gave me was enough to repair my armors and the unique weapons. Most importantly it also opened two more VTC quests which take place within the city, which means fast XP.

In addition to those, lady Epero suffered a sabre to the cranium - killed her at level 11. This means more XP now, and even more when I go back to Dunnage and turn in her head along with that of Lord Admiral Imp who I killed at lvl 7. I have a bit over 2000 XP to level 12, but I also have 7 days left to reach Magran's Teeth, and I'm afraid if I go to Dunnage now I'll run out of time for coming back.

 

[Safav Hamon]

lol, I literally can't beat Neriscyrlas. It's not that it kills me. Quite the contrary. It's that once I get Neriscyrlas to the 50% hp trigger where she activates Llengrath's Safeguard, neither of us can kill the other. After 30 full minutes on the final try I just went fuck it. I can get her to about 25% at which point she heals back up..

The second Neriscylas fight is quick and easy. Just have four characters tank her and then send one party member to activate the wards when they regenerate. You don't even need to do any damage yourself.

It's just design of the encounters. I've had many satisfying battles so far. I think maybe they wanted to avoid exploits which could turn the major battles of PoE1 into trivialities. So they overtuned defences, meaning they couldn't stack the damage output too high and there you have it: big, tanky monsters.

The defenses are somewhat overtuned, but the enemies in the DLC are between levels 14-17. They're supposed to have high defenses. You're probably just underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization.

 

[Grunker]

The defenses are somewhat overtuned, but the enemies in the DLC are between levels 14-17. They're supposed to have high defenses. You're probably just underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization.

This is just pure apologism. The encounters pose no threat. I'm not complaining about difficulty, I'm complaining about encounter design where you have drawn out but very easy encounters.

That cannot be explained away by me being underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization, because if assuming you're right and I was higher level, had better builds and better items, all that would change is that the encounters would go from trivially easy but drawn out to trivially easy and less drawn out.

lol, I literally can't beat Neriscyrlas. It's not that it kills me. Quite the contrary. It's that once I get Neriscyrlas to the 50% hp trigger where she activates Llengrath's Safeguard, neither of us can kill the other. After 30 full minutes on the final try I just went fuck it. I can get her to about 25% at which point she heals back up..

The second Neriscylas fight is quick and easy. Just have four characters tank her and then send one party member to activate the wards when they regenerate. You don't even need to do any damage yourself.

I only have the King-dude and his ward seems to do nothing. I did help Waidwen and got a "good" ending, but he's not there, so I think I might have asked him to help with Eothas instead?

I killed the inquisitor because fuck those guys.

As for tanking, it's not a problem. I think I could survive being in this fight for at least an hour straight before being completely drained of resources.

Meanwhile, I clawed my way out of Poko Kohara and now I'm thinking that going there pretty much saved my party and the playthrough.

It's funny that however you resolve that quest, you get XP from both factions who charged you with going there. The money they gave me was enough to repair my armors and the unique weapons. Most importantly it also opened two more VTC quests which take place within the city, which means fast XP.

In addition to those, lady Epero suffered a sabre to the cranium - killed her at level 11. This means more XP now, and even more when I go back to Dunnage and turn in her head along with that of Lord Admiral Imp who I killed at lvl 7. I have a bit over 2000 XP to level 12, but I also have 7 days left to reach Magran's Teeth, and I'm afraid if I go to Dunnage now I'll run out of time for coming back.

Your playthrough sounds hella fun to do once I'm done with more regular playthroughs in the distant future.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Your playthrough sounds hella fun to do once I'm done with more regular playthroughs in the distant future.

It can be nerve wrecking, but the game definitely changes a lot with the challenges on, and the set of possible routes through the content is narrowed greatly. You actually have to plan for contingencies.

Something I think could have been better is if the repair wasn't just an enchantment interface option, but was connected to your party's mechanics skill, and consumed some basic resources (steel, leather, etc) which you would buy from weaponsmiths and take with you in the dungeons.

The way it is now, with repair just costing copper pires, you have to carry liquid cash in order to repair while in the dungeon, because you can't turn loot into money without tracking back to a shop, for which you have no time with Eeothas' challenge, because you are on a countdown. Also, the economics are such that the loot on enemies and the loot guarded by enemies is not worth the cost of repairing the weapon degradation you will suffer in the combat. You have to pick your fights.

 

[Safav Hamon]

That cannot be explained away by me being underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization, because if assuming you're right and I was higher level, had better builds and better items, all that would change is that the encounters would go from trivially easy but drawn out to trivially easy and less drawn out.

Regardless of the strategic challenge, balancing combat around progression is not a new concept in RPGs.

I only have the King-dude and his ward seems to do nothing. I did help Waidwen and got a "good" ending, but he's not there, so I think I might have asked him to help with Eothas instead?

Are you standing on the ward? They only activate when moved on.

 

[Grunker]

That cannot be explained away by me being underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization, because if assuming you're right and I was higher level, had better builds and better items, all that would change is that the encounters would go from trivially easy but drawn out to trivially easy and less drawn out.

Regardless of the strategic challenge, balancing combat around progression is not a new concept in RPGs.

Are you a politician or are you just not reading my posts? The issue here is not challenge.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The issue is that you're underlevelled against a late game boss, which isn't actually an issue in an RPG.

Obviously challenge is a problem for you, because people have beaten her as early as level 10 without using wards. Your challenge is that you can't figure out how to deal sufficient damage.

 

[Grunker]

Okay, so you actually did not read my posts:

The defenses are somewhat overtuned, but the enemies in the DLC are between levels 14-17. They're supposed to have high defenses. You're probably just underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization.

This is just pure apologism. The encounters pose no threat. I'm not complaining about difficulty, I'm complaining about encounter design where you have drawn out but very easy encounters.

That cannot be explained away by me being underlevelled and using poor builds/itemization, because if assuming you're right and I was higher level, had better builds and better items, all that would change is that the encounters would go from trivially easy but drawn out to trivially easy and less drawn out.

Now try again without the easy cop-out of refering to the boss fight.

And when you're done with that and realise the boss fight is all you have left, remember to reply to this:

all that would change is that the encounters would go from trivially easy but drawn out to trivially easy and less drawn out.

In the context of the boss fight.

The problem with the encounter design in Beast of Winter is not challenge. Besides frost shades I literally beat every single encounter without losing a party member, being at risk or having to concentrate. They just took very, very long. This is not fun and wouldn't become fun if I had levels or better builds, it would just go by faster.

 

[Safav Hamon]

That's the thing. It's not trivially easy for you, or else you would of already beaten her instead of quitting.

Neriscylas is not a strategically challenging fight, but that's not the only viable form of challenge in an RPG. The challenge is finding the right synergies and combinations to break her defenses.

 

[Grunker]

Now try again without the easy cop-out of refering to the boss fight.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah BoW combat was absolutely retarded.

 

[Grunker]

Neriscylas is not a strategically challenging fight, but that's not the only viable form of challenge in an RPG. The challenge is finding the right synergies and combinations to break her defenses.

I don't mind losing to a build/gear/level/tactics check by being raped

I got my ass kicked soundly by White March's dragon and never complained. Because it just beat me - mainly because my build and party setup wasn't that great, even if I found the correct strategy I just couldn't overcome the fight's stats. So I had to tune that and return.

Which was perfectly OK - because I lost as a result. I didn't get locked into a stalemate by a boss that posed no threat whatsoever but which I also posed no threat to.

If I return to Neriscylas later after more tuning, the fight won't suddenly become fun, because it still won't pose a threat.

 

[Grunker]

Are you actually, physically incapable of reading? I beat the entirety of Beast of Winter's fights up to this point without ever being at risk or having to expend any resources/concentrate on strategy beyond a few standard casts. How is that too challenging? What the fuck are you raving about?

 

[Safav Hamon]

You admit that you can't beat the final boss underlevelled when others have done so. Therefore the final boss is too challenging for you. It's not rocket science.

A fight can't be trivally easy and impossible at the same time. There are many viable strategies to break her defenses below level 14. You just need to experiment.

 

[111111111]

You admit that you can't beat the final boss underlevelled when others have done so. Therefore the final boss is too challenging for you. It's not rocket science.

A fight can't be trivally easy and impossible at the same time. There are many viable strategies to break her defenses below level 14. You just need to experiment.

I think what grunker is trying to say is that when he was doing the fights in the BoW, he never actually died but was locked in a stalemate or the fights took way to long to finish. He would prefer being assblasted instead of wet noodle fight. (Not 100% sure)

 

[Grunker]

^ no, that's only true of the dragon. All other fights I beat easily without having to mentally concentrate to avoid risk or defeat. It just took a long time.

Fights that are easily defeated but drawn out = not fun.

@Safav Hamman knows he cannot defend this type of encounter design, which is why he repeatedly talks about only the boss despite me asking three questions about the rest of the encounter design.

When I get back to the boss after a few levels and defeat it the exact same way, I'm sure he's had the time to find another excuse, lol.

 

[Safav Hamon]

I think what grunker is trying to say is that when he was doing the fights in the BoW, he never actually died but was locked in a stalemate or the fights took way to long to finish.

With all three allies the boss goes down in under 10 minutes regardless of your party.

@Safav Hamman knows he cannot defend this type of encounter design, which is why he repeatedly talks about only the boss despite me asking three questions about the rest of the encounter design.

I never said the encounter design in BoW was great, but you went a step further and called the final boss unfair.

It's an RPG. Fighting a level 17 enemy at level 10 is supposed to be unfair. Either learn the systems better or don't make a fuss about enemies in late game areas having much better stats.

 

[Grunker]

I didn't call it unfair. I called it stupid and poorly designed.

Llengrath or Magran's Faithful Bounty in PoE1 are unfair - and I love them both regardless, despite being too shit to beat the first one on PotD.

Also I'm not level 10, dunno where you got that from.