Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Frusciante]

I agree with many of the points you guys bring forward. But as a ''casual'' rpg player (casual in the sense that I dont care that much about design principles and all the things that are going to behind the scenes) I am allready enjoying the combat at this point. Sure it is far to buggy to play it properly, but when it does work I like it.

As I like the way the entire game plays at this point. I love the environments and the sense of discovery/exploration. Dialogue etc is great and when combat works I enjoy positioning my party and using the abilities to beat a difficult encounter.

Especially like the chanter (allthough its way too powerful). Combining the phrases in combination with the invocations is a realy cool new idea.

 

[Grunker]

IWD2 solely has an attribute each 4 levels and a feat on that, and PoE's talents will be the equal of that.

Now THIS is complete bullshit. IWD2 had a feat every 3 levels and bonus feats depending on class choices. '

Eh, yes? That is exactly what I said. I didn't say anything about the number of feats. Incidentally, that number corresponds to the number of talents you gain in PoE.

But what's more important is that you could also mix and match classes in any combination, such as Paladin(2)/Sorc(10)/Fighter(4).

IWD2 had multiclassing, PoE doesn't. I guess you could call that a customization option but that doesn't help single-classed characters customize. In any case, that's not a lot more than what PoE has. And again, larger class diversity nullifies any claim of laziness as an explanation.

Calling Sawyer lazy is just so odd. The man is an obsessive sperg who does nothing but talk and work and write about systems.

 

[felipepepe]

I'm not sure I agree with felipepepe's points about why percentages look worse in terms of presentation, but I certainly agree that they do.

There's also the fact that % usually comes together with shitty itemization and smaller upgrades. You can't make an item that gives 0,25 THAC0, but you can make one that gives 1,5% bonuses to something.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Does anyone still think the retail release will be this year? Looking at the state of the beta it seems they have a LOT to work on.

An early access release to fund a couple more months of development must seem tempting right now.

 

[roshan]

Eh, yes? That is exactly what I said. I didn't say anything about the number of feats. Incidentally, that number corresponds to the number of talents you gain in PoE.

IWD2 had multiclassing, PoE doesn't. I guess you could call that a customization option but that doesn't help single-classed characters customize. In any case, that's not a lot more than what PoE has. And again, larger class diversity nullifies any claim of laziness as an explanation.

Calling Sawyer lazy is just so odd. The man is an obsessive sperg who does nothing but talk and work and write about systems.

I'm sorry but it is impossible to take this seriously at all. Claiming that a system in which you can combine 12 different classes in myriad, almost limitless ways and proportions is "not much more" than a system in which you pick a class and stick to it makes no sense at all. IWD2 was not about single classed characters. The crafting of characters out of multiple classes was inherent to the system.

I don't know about Sawyer's lazyness but many of his design choices and ideas seem to be taking the easy way out. Stripping features entirely instead of building on them. For example, I read that bashing was not implemented in order to make mechanics more useful. They could have still made mechanics useful by making bashing unoptimal - bashing open chests for example could have broken potions inside them.

 

[Duraframe300]

Does anyone still think the retail release will be this year? Looking at the state of the beta it seems they have a LOT to work on.

An early access release to fund a couple more months of development must seem tempting right now.

Yes. Me.

Not that I'd mindif they took a bit more time to finish some additional stuff.

 

[Decado]

Not following this too closely but I've noticed a few things, just by watching others play:

1) The backgrounds are fantastic, but I can't ever see shit. The PCs are blending into the 2D backgrounds. They have to fix that.
2) I appreciate that Sensuki went through the trouble of rewriting the skill descriptions, but I have a feeling that is something they were going to get to, eventually.
3) BGII really does have fucking sweet itemization.
4) What's the deal with ranged combat? Is it OPd only with guns?
5) Why the hate on autopause? It was really useful in BGII (as an example) for preventing your dumbass dude from walking over a spotted trap.

 

[poetic codex]

I'm not sure I agree with felipepepe's points about why percentages look worse in terms of presentation, but I certainly agree that they do.

I agree with fellipepepe wholeheartedly, but my main reason for hating percentages is that percentage increases usually go hand in hand with passive skills, and passive spells. Passive skills don't give me enough of a sense of progression because I'll be doing the same thing at level 20, that I was doing at level one, only with a probability boost. Right now the fighter class in particular is quite boring because of this. Percentages also make buff spells sound more useful than they are, unless you're a math wiz. Sure a 30% boost to damage sounds nice, but if you're using a low damage weapon, that 30% could only be an extra 3 points. whoop dee freaking doo. So for me personally, percentages both trivialize the act of levelling up and encourage the use of passive skills and spells.

 

[Infinitron]

Re: multiclassing

I don't have the metrics to verify this and I don't think Sawyer or anybody else have ever discussed it, but I suspect that multiclassing has always been kind of an "advanced"/"grognardy" mechanic used only by a minority of players. It probably makes more sense to design a game where the core classes themselves allow more flexibility. It increases the chance of people actually experiencing that flexibility.

If you really want pure flexibility, forget about classes and go classless.

 

[Athelas]

With the way the stats and equipment work (everyone can equip everything and stats do the same for everyone) multi-classing would be...I don't want to say redundant, but certainly different.

For example, I read that bashing was not implemented in order to make mechanics more useful. They could have still made mechanics useful by making bashing unoptimal - bashing open chests for example could have broken potions inside them.

You couldn't have come up with a better example? 'Would you like suboptimal loot or not?' is not a particularly interesting choice.

 

[Grunker]

Re: multiclassing

I don't have the metrics to verify this and I don't think Sawyer or anybody else have ever discussed it, but I suspect that multiclassing has always been kind of an "advanced"/"grognardy" mechanic used only by a minority of players. It probably makes more sense to design a game where the core classes themselves allow more flexibility. It increases the chance of people actually experiencing that flexibility.

If you really want pure flexibility, forget about classes and go classless.

I agree in principle. The problem is that PoE does neither.

Spoiler

Or you could do like Pathfinder and do both really well, but Pathfinder bad, rite?

 

[Infinitron]

Re: multiclassing

I don't have the metrics to verify this and I don't think Sawyer or anybody else have ever discussed it, but I suspect that multiclassing has always been kind of an "advanced"/"grognardy" mechanic used only by a minority of players. It probably makes more sense to design a game where the core classes themselves allow more flexibility. It increases the chance of people actually experiencing that flexibility.

If you really want pure flexibility, forget about classes and go classless.

I agree in principle. The problem is that PoE does neither.

We'll see.

 

[Grunker]

See my edited-in spoiler

 

[Sensuki]

2) I appreciate that Sensuki went through the trouble of rewriting the skill descriptions, but I have a feeling that is something they were going to get to, eventually..

No doubt, but as I've said. Since the game isn't really worth testing in combat that much atm, I've been devoting my time to stuff external from playing. I'm going to do a few passes on that strings file and hopefully it'll save a designer a few hours later down the line which can be spent on something more important. In saying that I have absolutely no illusion that they'll just use what I have, but if I add in the missing info and set a nice formatting style, they can rejigger the language without having to think of the rest of that shit up on their own.

 

[bonescraper]

IE-games were lazy? AD&D is lazy?

Like I said before, the lack of depth in each class is a probably more or less a direct result of the fact that the class diversity is so much higher than we're used to. It simply isn't possible to create a wealth of customization options for each class when you have so many classes that are so different from each other. A bad decision to put your work into class diversity over internal class customization IMO but certainly not "lazy." I have no idea what measure you use to qualify it as "lazy" except that you're angry and you need someone to blame.

You mean it's impossible for Sawyer, right?

Let's take D&D 3.5 intelligence attribute. It affects the maximum spell level, number of spells, number of attribute points, the chance to learn a new spell, affects some skills (disable device, lore, appraise etc.), affects saving throws and is used in dialogue skill checks.

In PoE it affects dialogue skill checks, and each point adds exactly 5% to spell duration and area of effect.

Spoiler

In Diablo 3 each point adds 0.1% to resistances and 1% to spell damage.

That looks simple (and lazy) to me. But hey, at least it's BALANCED! right?

 

[Sensuki]

Sure, but what does Intelligence give to a Fighter in D&D ?

One of the goals is to make every attribute useful for every class.

 

[Sensuki]

Just a note guys who are doing beta testing:

Unity has a log file which records all the try { catch errors, called output_log.txt

It is overwritten every time you run the .exe

Please think about saving a copy of it every time you quit game and submitting them, particularly if you encounter any issues

Have a read here:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67421-save-your-output-logtxt-every-time-you-quit-the-game/

 

[Perkel]

Cain lost all creativity after Arcanum. TOEE was a completely uninspired game. Avellone? He probably got burned out after PST and now can't even kill some wolves.

Someone something Bloodlines.

 

[sea]

This game captures the Infinity Engine feel perfectly. Great atmosphere and visuals, love the music, even the UI is just about right (still waiting on solid version, but I like the current one too)... definitely seeing a lot of promise. So cool to see all these Kickstarter games coming together.

 

[Semper]

Sure, but what does Intelligence give to a Fighter in D&D ?

skill bonuses (like for crafting), skill points (like for using magic devices). with combat insight i can even create the nerdy bookworm wielding a sword.

Who forbids tweaking damage per individual weapon:

For Pillars of Eternity? Josh Sawyer, because he wants the rules system to be unified and easily understandable for new players rather than a shit tonne of edge cases. This makes such fine tuning that you talk about impossible.

isn't that how it already works? the percentage bonus of might translates into an individual flat bonus per weapon. in the end 10% of 6dmg or 10% of 10dmg are both "flat" bonuses, but individual ones.

 

[Harold]

in the end 10% of 6dmg or 10% of 10dmg are both "flat" bonuses, but individual ones.

That's precisely the problem.

 

[Rivmusique]

I am allready enjoying the combat at this point. Sure it is far to buggy to play it properly, but when it does work I like it.

Quite agree, a lot of those encounters are bloody fun. I really enjoy stealthing to set up appropriate positions before I start a fight.

I hope that AoE targeting indicator is not final. While it is an appreciated improvement over the IE games, they should work to make it a little clearer just who you're covering with it, highlight the units I suppose. Also, some spells have a "between caster and target" area that has no indicator, I'd like that shown as well.

 

[Semper]

in the end 10% of 6dmg or 10% of 10dmg are both "flat" bonuses, but individual ones.

That's precisely the problem.

yeah, i know. but that was fanta's point. or so it seemed to me. dunno if grunker and sensuki missed the point, or if i totally misread their reply.

 

[tuluse]

skill bonuses (like for crafting), skill points (like for using magic devices).

I'm sure the fighter will be very happy with his high int party member for crafting weapons for him.

 

[bonescraper]

Sure, but what does Intelligence give to a Fighter in D&D ?

One of the goals is to make every attribute useful for every class.

Baaw, my STR focused mage can't kill shit! Sawyer, fix plox! And here comes Sawyer, and tells you to do exactly that. Dump all your points into strength to deal massive damage! And the retards rejoiced. He singlehandedly saved a whole generation of casual gamers from shame and ridicule. Praised be Sawyer, the crackerjack designer.