Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sykar]

Asking for PoE to not be shit really isn't asking very much.

I have not really followed up on PoE but why is it getting so much flak in a nutshell?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Everyone has their obsessions on stuff, though. I wouldnt want someone as lead who didnt have something they were obsessed over that they really were passionate about expressing in a game. Sawyer is big on history (cultures, practical armor, etc) and balance. Well, good. I may not agree with every single design decision (wizards, recent armor changes, etc) but at least these decisions are coming from a good place and from someone who is passionately implementing them to make what they believe would be a great game.

Passionate? Thought we'd just been over that.

 

[imweasel]

I have not really followed up on PoE but why is it getting so much flak in a nutshell?

Some people think that the combat and mechanics are not just very different from the IE games, but also very lackluster in comparison.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Shevek]

Sykar
Wizards are a bit limited spell wise and some people dont like AoOs. For some, those two things mean the entire game blows (theres other quibbles, lack of prebuffing, short spell durations, etc but wizards and aoos are the biggest complaints that persist). It doesnt though. The current patch feels a bit off due to some recent changes to armor and some new bugs but once these things get sorted, the mechanics will be solid. If you dont like AoOs, Bester has a mod to remove them. Beyond mechanics, the game is almost universally praised for everything else.

 

[Sykar]

Thanks.

 

[Invictus]

Lost all remining respect for Sawyer; even Todd has Pete to tell him what the fuck to say, to come up with this "Hey it dont rock my world baby but it pays the rent...plus it beats beign a hobo" has Gotta be the finishing touch on his retarded little resume. how can he honestly come up with this shit, knowing that so much líes on the success of this game for deveoping a honest to goodness IP for his company?
Coming out and somehow implying that the game you are in charge of doesnt have much emocional connecion to him is pure retarded shit, imagine going to a concert were the artist doesnt give you its 100% because he\she is depressed or doesnt patricullary like that song?
Fucking unacceptable

 

[Shevek]

That was complete gibberish.

 

[Sensuki]

Thanks.

It goes a bit beyond that, but combat in general is a lot less tactical, and there's still semi-severe problems with things like pathfinding and AI that are worse than what BioWare were able to achieve back in 1998.

 

[Infinitron]

combat in general is a lot less tactical

Just sent this question to Josh's tumblr:

So, Pillars of Eternity. It seems like you reduced the durations of buffs and debuffs to make combat more tactical, instead of being all about casting a bunch of long-duration buffs and steamrolling the dungeon with long-duration debuffs. But it seems like some players have reacted to that by deeming those buffs and debuffs utterly non-worthwhile and defaulting to damage-based builds and tactics. Paradoxically, making combat seem a lot LESS tactical to those players. How do you deal with that?

 

[Starwars]

Well, I sure as hell don't know about you guys but creative stuff I've done have had very different emotional investments on my part. You can do something creative without being 100% emotionally entangled with it, and you can still feel proud of it and have a real sense of accomplishment over it. I think Josh is one game-designer that actually feels like he dives into his work and takes it seriously. Why the hell do you think he posts youtube vids, answers retarded questions and posts on forums about game-mechanics otherwise? Not exactly a lot of devs do that (especially not ones part of bigger companies). But no, clearly he doesn't give a fuck and does that only for his paycheck.

Drawing a comparison between making a game and going to a concert is completely fucking retarded. And that's not even going into the fact that, well... do you really think artists have the same creative output and drive all the time? Do you think they burn equally for all their material? Do you really think that they're always on top of their game whenever they throw a concert? If you expect that, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. What you can expect is that they act professionally and give 100% of whatever they've got on the night. But to keep the same level of passion burning at all times? Please.

If you think Josh (or any other game-designer), after all these years in the game-industry (15 at least I think?) is gonna throw himself into a project (for a company as big as OEI) with the same fire and eagerness as an indie-dev just starting out, then... well, what the fuck are you smoking? Talk about an easy way to burn yourself out.
That does not mean that he doesn't give a shit any more, and it doesn't mean he isn't creative any more. Jesus.

 

[Invictus]

You are right Shevek, pain medicine got me a bit groggy...to resume things for you; Sawyer's attitude and lack of profesional visión is pathetic, but having no one to stop him from expressing his retarded hipster poseur "views" only leaves me even more mad over having backed this piece of shit.
Oh well back to Neo Scavenger and waiting for the release of Staglands

 

[Hormalakh]

Well, I sure as hell don't know about you guys but creative stuff I've done have had very different emotional investments on my part. You can do something creative without being 100% emotionally entangled with it, and you can still feel proud of it and have a real sense of accomplishment over it. I think Josh is one game-designer that actually feels like he dives into his work and takes it seriously. Why the hell do you think he posts youtube vids, answers retarded questions and posts on forums about game-mechanics otherwise? Not exactly a lot of devs do that (especially not ones part of bigger companies). But no, clearly he doesn't give a fuck and does that only for his paycheck.

Drawing a comparison between making a game and going to a concert is completely fucking retarded. And that's not even going into the fact that, well... do you really think artists have the same creative output and drive all the time? Do you think they burn equally for all their material? Do you really think that they're always on top of their game whenever they throw a concert? If you expect that, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. What you can expect is that they act professionally and give 100% of whatever they've got on the night. But to keep the same level of passion burning at all times? Please.

If you think Josh (or any other game-designer), after all these years in the game-industry (15 at least I think?) is gonna throw himself into a project (for a company as big as OEI) with the same fire and eagerness as an indie-dev just starting out, then... well, what the fuck are you smoking? Talk about an easy way to burn yourself out.
That does not mean that he doesn't give a shit any more, and it doesn't mean he isn't creative any more. Jesus.

I think there is a lot of mischaracterization of what I was trying to say and people have a tendency to categorize things into boxes that they can understand. I don't think that this game is shit for Josh's "dispassionate" stance. I don't think this game is shit in any case - yes it's got its rough edges, but the point I was trying to make was that Josh was sort of writing a lot of bullshit when he wrote what he wrote (Roguey's postings).

firstly I don't believe the guy is dispassionate as much as he says. I think he's just a little hesitant because he if he considers a game (Fallout NV in the original case, but PoE in this case) his baby, then what happens when it's taken away?

In the case of "dispassionate" affecting his work - I think this might come down to him not fully exploring all the possibilities when it comes to gameplay and choosing the easiest/least work-intensive solution. Finding a solution and finding the most elegant one are worlds apart.

------------

What also irritates me is that I was basically "sold to." A big part of why I backed this game was because I believed in the "passion" that the kickstarter showed - I saw a bunch of guys who really wanted to try their damnest to make a game to bring back that ~old feels~ and were willing to make sacrifices for it. They talked about "wanting to make a kickstarter game because it's something that we're passionate about." Tim Cain uses those direct words in the kickstarter video. So that passion and dedication is what moved me.

And then many months later, I read these quotes and I'm thinking, "Whaaaa?" I just feel a little hoodwinked.

 

[Roguey]

You mentioned before that anything you create is owned by other parties, so you know not to get attached to things you're writing. Did you have that attitude when you started out as a creative chap at Black Isle, or was it learned over time?

It was learned over time.

No Fallout or Bethesda questions--but any comment on G:SS? You mentioned that failure is an excellent teacher, and not to say that G:SS was a failure, but clearly things didn't work out there. What did you take from that experience?

If you're working for someone else, don't ever forget that the game you're working on does not belong to you.

I don't think you can blame Josh for being the way he is after BG3, Fallout 3, Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows, Aliens, and North Carolina.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah, but that isn't true in this case! They aren't working for "someone else." And I still think that that mentality is poison when working on a creative project.

At the end of the day he owns his own name and reputation. Yeah, I guess he could be like that - just like all the other game developers. But then there really shouldn't be an expectation for us to give him the time of day on the next game.

I guess this is why MCA and George Ziets were stretch goals and not Josh "I'm in it for the money" Sawyer.

Where is your god now roguey.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Meh, Josh here strikes me as saying one thing but doing another. Who is more passionate than him about game mechanics and pushing the RPG genre forward in today's gaming industry (as in right now, not in the past)? I think he's just letting out his bitterness for several of the projects he worked on getting cancelled in the past, don't believe he's as anywhere near as mercenary as he claims.

 

[Hormalakh]

It could also be that this is a very different game than FONV (which was when he made that quote). So we just come back full circle... nothing of value was gained or lost by roguey's posting, as usual.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, but that isn't true in this case! They aren't working for "someone else." And I still think that that mentality is poison when working on a creative project.

Josh is working for Obsidian Entertainment, who own Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Nihiliste]

This all seems to be dramatically blown out of proportion. People's views and emotions are fluid. I'm sure Josh's passion for the project has waxed and waned over it's course, as most anyone's would. I expected Obsidian to make an IE style game since that's what people gave them money to do, I didn't expect its employees to regress to their teenage years and blow their loads over having the opportunity.

Take anything you've done for 15-20 years. Could you ever recapture the same feelings for that task now that you had when you started? I'm sure everyone would agree that it only occurs in rare circumstances.

 

[Sensuki]

Just sent this question to Josh's tumblr:

That's not the problem. The problem with buffs was the cast time and recovery time, which has been improved across the board. The problem you mention is also more of a strategical one.

It's less tactical for a number of reasons, but one related to casting is the removal of counterspelling.

I don't think combat in PE is very reactionary.

 

[Infinitron]

That's not the problem.

Sure, maybe.

It's just one example of a pattern, though. Josh going "I'll take away this choice because it's unbalanced, but I'm giving you THIS choice instead", and some players responding with "But I don't want that choice, I don't want to play that way, so now I have less choices!"

 

[Sensuki]

I'm not really sure if anyone's complained about buff lengths being short, like only lasting for the encounter itself. One impact it does have is it means you get much, much less out of a per-rest spell. This game seems to promote resting really often, which isn't good.

BTW I also wouldn't be surprised if his reply includes rest bonuses from Inns/Stronghold and food, which is applies long term buffs.

edit: and he'll also say something about casting the spell in combat having an opportunity cost, instead of pre-buffing before combat and then just attacking

 

[Athelas]

Most of the buffs (except for maybe the ones that boost accuracy) simply aren't worth using unless you're pulling out at all the stops for a boss battle. Their effects aren't that significant and they last very briefly (further compounded by the end of the combat state ending buffs).

Also, what maybe is being overlooked in these discussions is that attacking also serves a defensive function, since even grazes are capable of interrupting enemy attacks, thus reducing incoming damage. And since grazes are the new misses, you constantly have a chance of causing interrupts when you're attacking.

 

[Hormalakh]

This all seems to be dramatically blown out of proportion. People's views and emotions are fluid. I'm sure Josh's passion for the project has waxed and waned over it's course, as most anyone's would. I expected Obsidian to make an IE style game since that's what people gave them money to do, I didn't expect its employees to regress to their teenage years and blow their loads over having the opportunity.

Take anything you've done for 15-20 years. Could you ever recapture the same feelings for that task now that you had when you started? I'm sure everyone would agree that it only occurs in rare circumstances.

Your username is very apt

ON topic - I use the buffs all the time in combat. They're actually pretty good.

 

[Sensuki]

Buffs are much better than they were before, but yeah I only really use accuracy related ones.