Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn Sawyer just told his fellow SA'ers to keep the discussion on point. wow - just gained some respect for the dude.

hoverdog Having played quite a bit of the new beta version now and keeping up with the changes, it feels to me like they're getting there but haven't gotten there yet. Combat is better but still buggy as all hell and fairly frustrating episode do occur. At the very least it's a flawed gem. Hopefully they get to the issues at hand and work out the small kinks that remain. I'm not as huge of an engagement detractor as I used to be and can see it playing a part in the game. I'm not super happy about it, but it MAYBE could work. I can say for sure though that I know that it'll cause me at least a few reloads because my PCs will do some stupid shit (like moving) when I didn't want them to.

There are other bits of the game that just feel like something's missing. And it seems like Josh is aware of most of these bits (combat state and its inflexibility, spell selection, ranger animal companions, druid spiritshapes, certain other class mechanics) but I haven't lost hope that most if not all of these will be fixed after the game comes out (patched by the devs). Worse case scenario, many things will be modded. A few contributors already exist on that front.

Exciting times, at the very least.

 

[Hormalakh]

http://instagram.com/p/xp9HVypx-W/


EDIT: can someone in favor of the engagement mechanic explain why it's good? all I hear are complaints about it.

It's very good at shutting down movement. Like VERY GOOD. The hits hurt and so many players quickly learn not to move after they've been tagged. And I'm saying that this is a good thing, sometimes. I do feel that IE's old movement was fine, but not perfect by any stretch. It was a good foundation to build on because movement was a tactical choice, though it often strayed into cheese territory. The engagement system aims to fix this problem. Problems do occur when you don't give an order to move and your players move (either out of engagement zone or into it - my fucking priest....) but that's because of stupid AI.

It does bring in another whole level of consideration into gameplay and positioning is super important. Of course, there aren't enough abilities that allow movement changes (teleportation, and the like) are not there which would make positioning as much a tactical element as a strategic one.

It's sort of the pendulum swinging too far down the other side. Hopefully we'll have a mechanic that finds that nice sweet spot in the center.

 

[Bleed the Man]

I'm starting to play the beta a bit more in depth, until now I basically just toyed with it a bit.

Combat, although it has clear balance issues and needs plenty of tweaks (and bug fixing), feels really good to me and I like it quite a bit. It still has a great margin for improvment, but although I think it's problems are relatively easy to fix, the visibility of the combat needs to improve drastically. The effects and some parts of the environment obscure too much the battlefield, making it really hard to see what's happening. It was fairly common to lose track of the engagment arrows, or even the selection circles of the characters. This needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

 

[Nihiliste]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn Sawyer just told his fellow SA'ers to keep the discussion on point. wow - just gained some respect for the dude.

There are other bits of the game that just feel like something's missing. And it seems like Josh is aware of most of these bits (combat state and its inflexibility, spell selection, ranger animal companions, druid spiritshapes, certain other class mechanics) but I haven't lost hope that most if not all of these will be fixed after the game comes out (patched by the devs). Worse case scenario, many things will be modded. A few contributors already exist on that front.

Exciting times, at the very least.

I think they're close to having a product that's fun to play, and with mods we'll get the rest of the way there. Not to classic IE territory maybe, but fun and satisfying. I find its easy to get disappointed when certain design decisions seem to fly in the face of the IE experience, but to be honest I never thought I'd see a game like this again. At the end of the day, as this kickstarter craze dies out we'll probably wind up in another decade of decline sooner or later - and at that time I'll be glad that PoE/Wasteland/et al were made.

 

[Athelas]

so guys, I haven't been following this thread for the last few months, how do you rate the development? are the improvements noticeable? I'm concerned mostly about gameplay issues (engagement, useless attributes), bugs come and go.

The expectation is that it will be a worthy IE successor...

Spoiler

...once modders have fundamentally altered every single aspect of the combat-related mechanics and systems.

 

[aeonsim]

I suspect the game should be successful for Obsidian. Sure it's not BG3/IWD3/PST2 but the mechanics of the game play seem adequate to decent, and will continue to be tuned upto and probably after release. There are some clear weak points at the moment but it doesn't make the game unplayable just annoying if you choose certain character types and builds and these can be worked on.

At the end of the day though it's an Obsidian game, and being an Obsidian game the part that I think they're best at, the Story and characters has not been experienced yet. I think that the combination of a good to excellent story with interesting and well written companions with a adequate to decent set of mechanics should make for a good game.

It probably won't be game of the year for most people but it will hopefully do well enough that we can expect to see a sequel at some point a sequel where they will have had a chance to see what has and hasn't worked in PoE1 and can adjust the mechanics and game play to fix this. Hopefully this will result in a second game that is a marked improvement over the first, even if the first in turn has become something of a classic (hopefully), much like BG2 was a hell of a lot better than BG1 even though BG1 is a good game (and hopefully going that way rather than the good DA1 to the craptastic DA2).

 

[throwaway]

It might be a disaster for some people's self-esteems, but not for Obsidian

Feel like I'm asking the obvious but w/e, you mean JES, Roguey or the resident Grognards?

 

[Infinitron]

Feel like I'm asking the obvious but w/e, you mean JES, Roguey or the resident Grognards?

The subset of grognards who think the game is going to fail critically and commercially because the combat feels a bit off or the mechanics are a bit weird. At least, I assume that's what "disaster" means.

It is just not that important a factor. Not next to things like marketing and PR hype, appealing graphics, openness and sense of scope, or bugginess. (okay, let's hope they don't have a problem with that last one )

 

[aeonsim]

The subset of grognards who think the game is going to fail critically and commercially because the combat feels a bit off or the mechanics are a bit weird. At least, I assume that's what "disaster" means.

It is just not that important a factor. Not next to things like marketing and PR hype, appealing graphics, openness and sense of scope, or bugginess. (okay, let's hope they don't have a problem with that last one )

Heh even if the game was released with Obsidians usually level of bugginess it might still be considered more stable/less buggy than some recent major releases (Halo, Assassins Creed X^y, some sonic game, Destiny etc).

 

[imweasel]

I feel not much has changed and considering this is coming out in about 8 weeks (eg. some people expect a March release), I think this game is going to be a disaster for Obsidian.

Not sure if PoE will be a huge disaster, but I seriously doubt that it will be a success.

 

[Hormalakh]

Heh even if the game was released with Obsidians usually level of bugginess it might still be considered more stable/less buggy than some recent major releases (Halo, Assassins Creed X^y, some sonic game, Destiny etc).

you seriously underestimate the collective memory of gamers. People were complaining (hell RPS even wrote a fucking article) about how buggy that game was even though it really wasn't. RPS asked Feargus to basically apologize for that shit.

a few gamers complained that the game had bugs for them. that game did nothing to improve their reputation, it only just furthered it.

so yeah .... obsidian isn't losing its bugsidian reputation even if the game works 99% well. it's gotta work 100% and then they still probably have to apologize to some asshole.

 

[Weirdstuffinspace]

Even if the game is very stable and without many bugs, those asshole "journalists" are going to mention it anyway. They just love drama for pageviews.

 

[Grotesque]

When BG1 launched, it was considered a sin by grognards, played only by newfags.
Now these past newfags are today's grognards that bash Pillars.
If the game fails to sell as well as Divinity: Original Sin I bet Feargus will see it as a failure and Josh can kiss goodbye to his dreams of this becoming a franchise and his devious plan to end the phun.

 

[Infinitron]

If the game fails to sell as well as Divinity: Original Sin I bet Feargus will see it as a failure and Josh can kiss goodbye to his dreams of this becoming a franchise and his devious plan to end the phun.

Hah, I'm sure that's more Feargus' dream than Josh's. It's pretty obvious that Sawyer thinks real-time-with-elves fantasy games are basically for chumps, just like you do, my friend.

Anyway

If the game fails to sell as well as Divinity: Original Sin I bet Feargus will see it as a failure

*shrug* Wasteland 2 didn't, and it's fine. Don't see why this wouldn't be.

 

[Hormalakh]

Hah, I'm sure that's more Feargus' dream than Josh's. It's pretty obvious that Sawyer thinks real-time-with-elves fantasy games are basically for chumps, just like you do, my friend.

if this is truly how SAwyer feels, why the hell would they let him be project lead let alone lead designer? That's just crazy. You don't put a man as leader if he doesn't even believe in the project.

I doubt this is truly how Josh feels.

Also, now I truly understand why Shadowrun returns had a pretty crappy save/load mechanic (or a lack of one - the checkpoint system). Quite often, a lot of the delays for new beta updates have been due to save/load issues and they have plagued the beta with bugs since the first patch.

I have just found at least 3 bugs that relate to save/loads and persistence (with regards to status effects, timing, and suppression). Persistence is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Zed]

if this is truly how SAwyer feels, why the hell would they let him be project lead let alone lead designer? That's just crazy. You don't put a man as leader if he doesn't even believe in the project.

because he has the most relevant experience?
also everybody else were busy with south park.

 

[imweasel]

I'm sure Sawyer would have prefered to make a game with a historical setting instead of a fantasy one "with elves", but PoE is undoubtedly his pet project and is also largely responsible for its conception.

We all know how much Sawyer loves Darklands. PoE is basically just Darklands with elves (and a bunch of Sawyerisms).

 

[uaciaut]

I feel not much has changed and considering this is coming out in about 8 weeks (eg. some people expect a March release), I think this game is going to be a disaster for Obsidian.

I've not exactly touched the beta but i'm pretty sure this will reach a similar level of success to Original Sin, give or take. I don't see it doing much worse or much better than that.

 

[Sensuki]

Depends how much the masses care about story over gameplay.

 

[Grotesque]

Depends how much the masses care about story over gameplay.

Considering there are games where the lowest difficulty mode is also called "story mode", that should tell something

 

[Roguey]

if this is truly how SAwyer feels, why the hell would they let him be project lead let alone lead designer? That's just crazy. You don't put a man as leader if he doesn't even believe in the project.

I doubt this is truly how Josh feels.

A friend linked me to the concept art from Bioware's Dragon Age: Origins. In the concept art, the game has a more unique fantasy-punk aesthetic than the iconic look that Bioware ultimately went with. Would you have made the same decision?

I have worked on enough traditional fantasy games that the "iconic" look does not appeal to me personally. If I could work with artists to find a fresh look that appealed to audiences, I would prefer to go with that approach.

I want to make something clear, though: while I make games with a bias toward what I think is good/enjoyable, I do not make games for my own personal tastes. Few game developers working at mid- to large-sized studios have the freedom to drive a development process without catering to an idealized market.

I'm not trying to be rude but reading a lot of your answers regarding game development, it seems like you're just going through the motions and are not very passionate about your work. Have I misinterpreted?

It's more than going through the motions, but it is relatively dispassionate. The things I make don't belong to me, they aren't made for me, they aren't made on my own timetable, and I don't have much, if any, control over when they are released. I make things to fit into boxes that are put in front of me. At any point in time that box can be changed, moved around, pulled away, or removed entirely -- sometimes because I screwed up, and sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with me. It's hard to find good reasons to invest a lot of myself in something like that, especially when there are personal interests for me to pursue outside of my job.

I know I'm ruining some visions of game development as this Real Genius-esque environment where passionate imagineers in wacky goggles chuck dry ice around and re-assemble cars in offices as pranks, but there is a pretty big gulf between that and, say, mining coal for thirty years and dying of pneumoconiosis.

Artists who work in movies often have less creative freedom (and are generally paid more) than those who work in games. Creative occupations fall at various points on a sliding scale between full creative control and big bucks. I don't have complete creative control, nor much control over logistics, but I'm paid far beyond my practical value to society at large and I still have a healthy amount of freedom in what I do. I stop short of investing large amounts of myself in what I make because to do so would be to ignore that what I am making *does not belong to me*.

A group of guys made the original Fallout at Interplay, but it belonged to Interplay, not them. Then Black Isle made another Fallout game, and Interplay had MicroForte make yet another Fallout game. Then Interplay internal made a Fallout game and Black Isle's internal Fallout game was canceled. Bethesda bought the rights from Interplay and Bethesda internal developed Fallout 3. Then Bethesda contracted Obsidian to make Fallout: New Vegas. Concurrently, Interplay is working an a Fallout MMO. Where will the Fallout license go next? Beats me.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Sawyer seems completely miserable. His fan club should be concerned for his mental health.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Sawyer sounds like he's in love with his own conception of a dispassionate prick

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer seems completely miserable. His fan club should be concerned for his mental health.

Nah.

You can do whatever you want in life as long as you don't expect anyone to thank, praise, or pay you for it. If you want thanks, praise, or money, you probably aren't going to get to do what you want -- or if you do get to do what you want, you probably aren't going to get to do it the way that you want or when you want to do it.

I've grown up around and lived with professional freelance artists my whole life. You know what consistently makes them unhappy? Not being able to pay rent. For most people, there are always trade-offs.

It may be that due to circumstance and/or exceptional talent that you get to do what you want, how you want, when you want, and you get praise, thanks, and money for it. That is great. I am not one of those people, but I am very happy that at least I get to do something I like and get paid for it.

Some people have to perform dangerous physical labor and get paid virtually nothing for it. Some people pour their hearts into creations that go unrewarded. Some people are willing to do almost anything and no one will hire them. And if you really have it bad, you work in terrible/dangerous conditions, live in fear and squalor, and eke out a meager existence under severe wage slavery.

I don't have to deal with any of that (other than my self-imposed financial obligations to others). To be upset that my life is not more dreamlike and pampered than it already is would be absurd.

 

[Zed]

so have they given up or what
http://poedevtracker.net/
no post in 20 days

and what happened to KS updates