Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zed]

So now they're designing rogues around stealth? With the stupid "all party members stealth" system?

 

[Seari]

Is there a way to mod it? Group wide stealth would probably make me ignore the mechanic altogether.

 

[Sensuki]

They are going to change it to per-character after release.

 

[Infinitron]

Personally, I don't think 3 Knock Downs is overpowered, no.

Sensuki breathes a sigh of relief.

 

[Athelas]

Using the per-encounter abilities gets pretty rote though. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

 

[Infinitron]

The per-encounter abilities are actually not very well-designed. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

That's an odd argument. You have infinite standard auto-attacks per encounter. Are those also "no-brainers"? It's just a thing that you can do.

 

[Athelas]

The per-encounter abilities are actually not very well-designed. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

This strikes me as an odd argument. You have infinite auto-attacks per encounter, is that also a "no-brained"? It's just a thing that you can do.

The per-encounter abilities are much more useful than a normal attack. Also, auto-attack is automated, per-encounters require micro-management.

Oddly enough, some of the abilities that are situational and would benefit from being per encounter - like Arcane Veil - are per-rest currently.

 

[Infinitron]

The per-encounter abilities are actually not very well-designed. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

This strikes me as an odd argument. You have infinite auto-attacks per encounter, is that also a "no-brained"? It's just a thing that you can do.

The per-encounter abilities are much more useful than a normal attack.

So what? They're a thing that you can do. Use them, or don't.

I know what you're actually saying, though. Because you have a limited number of uses per encounter, you feel like you're "not playing right" if you don't use them all up in every encounter. Oddly enough, if you had infinite uses of those abilities per encounter, you wouldn't feel that way. Having infinite uses of an ability signals to the seasoned CRPG player that this is an ability meant to be used on an "as-needed" basis, rather than something that he needs to be "completionist" about.

It's like that argument about looting in RPGs. Make loot infinitely randomly generated like in a roguelike, and it's clear that you're not supposed to take all of it. But if there's a limited amount of it in the game, you're going to take every bit.

 

[Athelas]

The per-encounter abilities are actually not very well-designed. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

This strikes me as an odd argument. You have infinite auto-attacks per encounter, is that also a "no-brained"? It's just a thing that you can do.

The per-encounter abilities are much more useful than a normal attack.

So what? They're a thing that you can do. Use them, or don't.

I know what you're actually saying, though. Because you have a limited number of uses per encounter, you feel like you're "not playing right" if you don't use them all up in every encounter. Oddly enough, if you had infinite uses of those abilities per encounter, you wouldn't feel that way. Having infinite uses of an ability signals to the seasoned CRPG player that this is an ability meant to be used on an "as-needed" basis, rather than something that he needs to be "completionist" about.

I edited my post. And no, that's not it, it's the fact that you're always doing the same thing. I can't think of a situation where using Knockdown or Arcane Assault isn't better than a normal attack.

I would actually be fine with just a single use per encounter, because that would entail some thought about when to best use it.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

If you choose to spam the same ability over and over, how is it the system's fault?

 

[Zep Zepo]

Yeah, if i wanna "Press X to Jaesun" over and over. I'm gonna do it.

Zep--

 

[Shannow]

Spoiler

Without contex/anything concrete, the example with the bad/different choices doesn't mean much. I assume it's about character builds.(?) There wouldn't be a "bad" choice to remove without a dev putting it in in the first place. No? So how many devs go out of their way to put "bad" choices into their games?
And how does the presence of a suboptimal option detract from the better ones? People having an easier/more difficult time on playthroughs? That will massively differ anyway. People simply play too differently. When somebody feels too (little) challenged they can change the difficulty setting.
And if it is such a huge issue and the imbalances are massive, why not rebalance all 3 options, so they are similarly useful? As he states in that other quote for nerfing Sensuki's builds and the sniper rifle. He doesn't remove the builds that seem weaker.
I wish he'd given an example of a "bad choice". Any examples in that thread, Sensuki?

(I like how "perfect" balance suddenly is not a goal anymore and never has been. Balance sure seemed like his no.1 focus in pretty much everything I've read from him since PE was in development.)

 

[Infinitron]

I edited my post. And no, that's not it, it's the fact that you're always doing the same thing. I can't think of a situation where using Knockdown or Arcane Assault isn't better than a normal attack.

When facing high Fortitude enemies? Might be a thing that becomes more common later in the game.

It sounds like the ability might be designed with the idea that fighter players will use it as an all-purpose combat "opener". I'm not a huge fan of universally applicable "awesome button"-type abilities...though on the hand, it's nasty if your enemies will be using those same abilities on you.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I just spotted this article where apparently *someone from Obsidian* has said the expansion will be in the style of "Tales of the Sword Coast": http://www.gamewatcher.com/news/201...n-wants-improvements-rolled-into-a-free-patch

I remember this was something people were speculating about recently.

"No, we want to do a traditional expansion, and we're in the early stages of planning for that right now. Part of the Kickstarter campaign was a full expansion, so we're definitely doing a Tales of the Sword Coast style campaign," they told us in our interview.

"We're still in the early stages of design for that right now, though. What I would say about additional content other than that, is that I would like to see any gameplay tweaks and changes we make in an expansion get rolled into a free patch. So if you don't want to buy an expansion, you get all the same gameplay benefits without the extra story.

I am very satisfied that they won't be going stupid and adopting Paradox' repulsive DLC policy.

 

[Athelas]

That's interesting. I wonder how the new content would be integrated into the game, what with the reputation mechanics and all.

I edited my post. And no, that's not it, it's the fact that you're always doing the same thing. I can't think of a situation where using Knockdown or Arcane Assault isn't better than a normal attack.

When facing high Fortitude enemies? Might be a thing that becomes more common later in the game.

What would that accomplish? Knock down targets Deflection and inflicts a penalty to Deflection and Reflexes.

 

[Infinitron]

That's interesting. I wonder how the new content would be integrated into the game, what with the reputation mechanics and all.

I edited my post. And no, that's not it, it's the fact that you're always doing the same thing. I can't think of a situation where using Knockdown or Arcane Assault isn't better than a normal attack.

When facing high Fortitude enemies? Might be a thing that becomes more common later in the game.

What would that accomplish? Knock down targets Deflection and inflicts a penalty to Deflection and Reflexes.

Does it? If so, fuck you, wiki

 

[tuluse]

Using the per-encounter abilities gets pretty rote though. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

The thinking behind this is that people can (and would) just rest between every encounter in IE anyways. Now some people (like me) would larp and self restrict resting, but I think this is an acceptable compromise. You can self-restrict per-encounter abilities as well, though it seems like the game will be balanced around using them.

 

[Athelas]

Using the per-encounter abilities gets pretty rote though. Since they're essentially free, it's a no-brainer to use them, even more so when you have multiple.

The thinking behind this is that people can (and would) just rest between every encounter in IE anyways. Now some people (like me) would larp and self restrict resting, but I think this is an acceptable compromise. You can self-restrict per-encounter abilities as well, though it seems like the game will be balanced around using them.

I don't see how those are comparable. Imposing rest restrictions made the IE games more fun/interesting to play by adding an element of strategical resource management (even if illusory), which isn't the case with per-encounters. And that line of reasoning is also at odds with the design of the rest of the game - restring is restricted in PoE, after all.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

How are encounters delineated exactly? Could you conceivably when running out of per encounter abilities fall back when faster than an enemy, break off the encounter and then re-engage (like regenerating your shield in a modern shooter )?

 

[Athelas]

Per encounters are not THAT powerful that you'd want to do that. You'd probably take damage in the process of running away. Enemies would also recover their stamina and their per-encounters (if they have any), so that strategy would actually be counterproductive.

You'd need a party-wide speed-boost like the Paladin's Zealous Charge to be able to do it reliably.

 

[Sensuki]

Using per encounters does lead to rote combat where the combat openings of many characters is spamming their per-encounters. This also happens in 4E though, so it's unsurprising that it happens in PE too.

 

[tuluse]

I don't see how those are comparable. Imposing rest restrictions made the IE games more fun/interesting to play by adding an element of strategical resource management (even if illusory), which isn't the case with per-encounters. And that line of reasoning is also at odds with the design of the rest of the game - restring is restricted in PoE, after all.

Resting restrictions were still in the player's head, not real.

Make up your own limits for using per-encounter powers and you accomplish the same thing.

 

[Sensuki]

The thing is, per-encounters are MEANT to be spammed - that is part of their design. If you have special attacks that are 2-3/encounter in PE - why on earth would you not use them.

 

[tuluse]

The thing is, per-encounters are MEANT to be spammed - that is part of their design. If you have special attacks that are 2-3/encounter in PE - why on earth would you not use them.

By the same argument, why wouldn't you rest between every fight in bg2?

Answer: it makes the game more interesting for you.

 

[Sensuki]

You're not meant to rest spam though