Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ushas]

I believe it's unintended. Josh never intended for the Dyrford area to have exceptional gear and he asked the designers to remove it. They removed all of the exceptional gear on everyone I've encountered so far except one item .... buuut they probably forgot to edit the loot lists, or simply weren't told to.

Oho, so it's probably opposite I thought, starting with the last beta got me confused.
But that's actually better. Now, maybe they will look into loot tables because of that, so they may also consider your proposal...

That was my point, the difference between a 300cp chest and an exceptional war bow (810cp selling) + 300cp one, could be 810cp if you don't use the bow, or ~1200cp if you use it.

Yes. Though, the feeling it may depend on your other income. And for special items I would see the difference even higher than in the value difference...
The means aren't so important as the accessibility of the goals. Meaning, I would rather vote for randomly looting from 10 cp to 10000 cp, as lessen of evils, than have access to special and best items mainly through pseudorandom generator...

 

[aeonsim]

I don't really see what the fuss is about a single chest or container. And I don't think enough is yet known about how the random tables work to decide if this is a major problem. Depending on how the loot tables work individual chests could vary but the over all value of all the containers in a dungeon could average out to a similar amount.

Someone needs to test this by clearing out a dungeon with out looting the containers save and then see what there total haul is from the complete dungeon not just one chest and repeat. If the total loot from an entire dungeon can very by 5-10x then this would concern me far more than if a single chest varies.
For example if you completed the entire Cultist area and in one play through the total lootable amount was 5,000CP then on a separate play through it was 20,000CP that would be problematic as it directly effects how hard the game is, however looking at it at the individual container level is somewhat silly.

Secondly this only seems to concern UNNAMED items, quest rewards are always the same if you complete the quest in the same way. While from the 2 or 3 times I've defeated the Cult leader to get his key for the locked chest behind him I've always gotten the same named item. Also at least some of the hidden items are specifically placed for example one body always gives the same +10 deflection ring (>10x) while I've seen some variation among other locations (3 or 4 times) such as an Amulet of Fireball or a Cloak of Flame in the same location. Also considering NPCs pretty much drop there gear there gear that is pretty much fixed as well.


Currently it seems like this:
Quest rewards - Fixed
Quest related containers - Fixed
NPC items - Fixed
Hidden Items/Locations - Some fixed, some Random
Basic Containers - Random

Looking at that it seems to be that a very large proportion of your income is fixed especially on the harder levels where there are bigger groups of enemies and thus more equipment to take, at least on Path of the Damned I'd estimate 70-80% of my income is coming from Quests/NPC equipment and is thus fixed, which leaves something like 20-30% of the income random. And at this time it does not appear that we know if the income is completely random or the income from all the containers in a dungeon effectively averages out.

On a side note, does anybody know, whether there is any further difference among shops or how much the reputation plays a role here?

Fraction/region reputation is supposed to have some effect on prices (from JS), can't remember if it was the purchase or sales price for the loot.

 

[ushas]

aeonsim, thanks for the info. I was actually thinking about to do something like you said when having time. Also to see how many containers are randomly generated. And what is overall amount of Skaen gear to obtain, because I think that would be the main income there, in agreement with your conclusions. Though, I don't focus on the "money income" part as the main issue.

I think people here are talking mainly about randomly generated containers, probably the Basic ones you are talking about. Other than having different opinions, there is also a concern whether the random loot tables are rightly established according to the developers' idea (eg. that you shouldn't obtain some things at all). Being in doubt and thinking it's alright, would you tell Sensuki not to make a bug report before release?

You are also talking about the large part of income being fixed. Are you able to give further feedback about that? I'm asking because you did a great job trying to find out what are difficulty options about, so your point of view may be quiet informative. For example, how much of the whole income consist of quest and special handplaced items. And for the basic loot: what is variety and usability of the fixed part compare to the random one; whether you have any feel of difference in obtained gear/income between easy/normal/hard, etc...

PS: The three Skaen containers listed in that thread together were always looted at the same load. But you are right, that's not the whole dungeon. Although, even with that I don't think anybody is up to doing statistically significant tests And to have a whole picture, one would have to play the whole game, I guess.

 

[aeonsim]

...
I think people here are talking mainly about randomly generated containers, probably the Basic ones you are talking about. Other than having different opinions, there is also a concern whether the random loot tables are rightly established according to the developers' idea (eg. that you shouldn't obtain some things at all). Being in doubt and thinking it's alright, would you tell Sensuki not to make a bug report before release?
...

No the bug report makes sense as having a 1/X (10, 20?) chance of getting an exceptional weapon in that area seems odd. However considering the large amount of fixed items/goods/money from Quests, Quest related containers, NPC's and some hidden locations I don't think it's a big deal.

It's certainly not this drastic problem that some people are making it out to be in the various forums and in general neglecting to mention that every named item appears fixed and so is a large amount of the loot in part due to the changes that were made earlier in the beta to have enemies drop what they're equipped with (at player urging).

As I mentioned the chance of finding an exceptional (say basic +2 equiv weapon) as a random drop in an area that appears to be aimed at a party equipped mainly with +1 eqv weapons and amour and a couple of +2 eqv items seems a little odd so a bug report on that is logical. However as I mentioned above doing these tests on a single chest/container several times doesn't tell us much, it's more important to know the total value of loot in each area, thus the need to test it by creating a clean dungeon (kill every one) count the value of their total gear (on PoD there are something like 30 guards in that area so 30x Weapon/Armour sets etc) and make a save. Then go through and empty all the containers and work out the total value and range of container items from the entire dungeon then repeat this 10 times and see what the variation is and how it compares to the total value of the guards drops. If the total cp value of a area can vary by greater than 2-3x then that is an issue as it actually changes the difficulty of the game (say 5,000 vs 20,000) in a random manner however a change of say 1-2,000cp isn't much if the average is 20,000cp for the area.

The random loot appears to be a mix of cp, gems/components and basic weapons (normal, fine, expectational etc) which honestly aren't that interesting once you've a well equipped and enchanted party. After all if I find an exceptional Rod +8acc, +20% damage to I really want to switch it out for my customised fine Rod +4ACC, +15%DMG, +25% fire, +4 Acc + 20% DMG (Fine, Accurate 1, Damaging 1, Fire DMG: +8ACC, +35% DMG, + 25% Fire DMG)? Which I would then need to enchant up to the same level, when instead I could just wait a bit and enchant my current one up. I might consider switching if it was a named weapon with a special ability but those don't appear to be random so it's not an issue. Finally even if I've found an exceptional weapon there is a chance that no one in my party may use that weapon type so effectively it's just cp. Or if I have a named weapon I'm HIGHLY unlikely to give up the extra abilities that it has to switch to a basic weapon when I could instead enchant the named one up to the same level.


Finally all the talk of save scumming with regards to random loot just bores me, way way to meta gamey for me and secondly if your entire build/play through is dependent on the random drop of an item that does +15% damage and +4 acc then I think you've got a major problem with your build or your really pushing the limits of your own ability to play the game and as such there are probably many better things for you to be doing than reloading to try and get a better drop.

 

[aeonsim]

JoshS:

drgnvale posted:

As long as the loot is actually trash loot and there's 0 chance of getting a game changing item out of a chest, then I don't care if it's randomized or not.

The random element is always for minor or generic items, not uniques.

 

[Sensuki]

It's funny the lengths people will go to to defend lazy design.

 

[Roguey]

The last few Obs games weren't (at) all marketed as a spiritual sequels to IE games.

IWDs had randomized loot, bam.

I don't know why you wouldn't expect it.

For starters: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/11iox8/we_are_chris_avellone_tim_cain_and_josh_sawyer/c6mu2f3

He's not contradicting himself. Unique loot isn't randomized.

 

[Ellef]

We will rely more on placed loot than randomized loot.
There might be a tiny amount of randomization.

Multiple locked chests and random barrels with exceptional war axes is not a tiny amount of randomization.

 

[Roguey]

Minor and generic items don't count.

Anyway it's obvious that Absurdian fucked up their scope given the budget they had, so this is yet another corner cutting measure they had to take along with no paintovers for most backgrounds and so on in order to release a product on the 26th that can actually work and may be somewhat enjoyable to play.

By the by, the SA thread discussion on this subject is surprisingly ableist as hell. I can't believe such a good friend of Leigh Alexander's would post on such a shitlord forum. Triggered.

 

[Grunker]

It's hilarious how many of the anti-randomized loot table-folk are the self-proclaimed grognards. I can't think of anything more decidedly true to oldschool D&D than randomized loot tables. Also funny how many call it Diablo-like, when Diablo was very late to the party indeed concerning those mechanics.

As a general rule, I hate them myself on a first playthrough. However on subsequent playthroughs I mich prefer them. Item Randomizer is one of my favourite BG mods, it removes the tedium of predictable loot collection. I guess if forced to choose I'd still pick uniquely placed loot.

 

[Grunker]

Also Roguey, it's pretty funny how when PoE contains something good you credit JES, but when something shitty is implemented you blame "Obsidian". You should get that obvious weak spot looked into, it might hurt future trolling attempts.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a mod that "pre-randomizes" the game. Or at least pre-randomizes an area when you enter it for the first time.

 

[Grunker]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a mod that "pre-randomizes" the game. Or at least pre-randomizes an area when you enter it for the first time.

That's exactly how Item Randomiser works. You can randomise on install or on new game creation.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a mod that "pre-randomizes" the game. Or at least pre-randomizes an area when you enter it for the first time.

It's most likely possible to make a mod that would allow you to have a text file, in which you simply write a seed, and whenever you replay the game and use the same seed (or give your seed to a friend for instance), you'll have exactly the same loot drop, and save scumming won't work.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a mod that "pre-randomizes" the game. Or at least pre-randomizes an area when you enter it for the first time.

It's most likely possible to make a mod that would allow you to have a text file, in which you simply write a seed, and whenever you replay the game and use the same seed (or give your seed to a friend for instance), you'll have exactly the same loot drop, and save scumming won't work.

I was thinking of something that would somehow programatically "open" all of the containers in an area or in the game to get them to initialize themselves before the player actually gets to them, but it'd be nice if it's that simple.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

By making a seed system, you kinda do open all of the containers in all of the game and get them to initialize, for all intents and purposes. But it also allows you to share seed with others, which is interesting in itself.

 

[CyberWhale]

The last few Obs games weren't (at) all marketed as a spiritual sequels to IE games.

IWDs had randomized loot, bam.

Pillars of Eternity - a spiritual successor to IE games that drops the good things and copies the shit ones.

 

[Ellef]

It's hilarious how many of the anti-randomized loot table-folk are the self-proclaimed grognards. I can't think of anything more decidedly true to oldschool D&D than randomized loot tables. Also funny how many call it Diablo-like, when indeed Diablo was very late to the party indeed concerning those mechanics.

As a general rule, I hate them myself on a first playthrough. However on subsequent playthroughs I mich prefer them. Item Randomizer is one of my favourite BG mods, it removes the tedium of predictable loot collection. I guess if forced to choose I'd still pick uniquely placed loot.

This is a thread of BG loyalists though, very few here want magic items randomly placed. Would BG1 been any better if we didn't follow our usual route to get the key items, instead savescumming some high value chest for gauntlets of ogre power (edit: the randomised seed at game creation is definitely better than the randomised currently in the game)? Savescumming or metagaming, pick your poison I suppose.

 

[Copper]

Indeed, also why make em like that and not like the top ones?

I'd get rid of them both and have a nice murder hole for the neighbours.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Actually, the whole seed system sounded rather simple, so I went in to see how feasible it was and it looks like I've already got a working mod.

It takes the name of the container (which I HOPE is unique, at least inside one area), concats it with LevelName (name of the area), then generates a unique int from that string.

Takes that uniqueInt and adds your seed from the textfile. Uses that number to generate loot.

Now if all containers have unique names inside one area, then the whole thing is fully functional. I'll have to check it later cause I don't have any save files in areas where there are lots of containers.

 

[Apexeon]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a mod that "pre-randomizes" the game. Or at least pre-randomizes an area when you enter it for the first time.

Its called Master of Orion. The game rocks.
A game based on randomization with the quality level of BG dam that would be interesting.

 

[Roguey]

Also Roguey, it's pretty funny how when PoE contains something good you credit JES, but when something shitty is implemented you blame "Obsidian". You should get that obvious weak spot looked into, it might hurt future trolling attempts.

I'll blame Josh for things that are his fault, and the Kickstarter stretch goals aren't it. The guy who said

RPG genre conventions seem absurdly stultifying at times, and in many cases "RPG" seems to be more about checking off a list of required elements than playing with a subset of those elements. I really think this reduces and cheapens the genre, typically forcing core moment-to-moment gameplay into "oh yeah that too" priority...Somebody has to make an RPG where the moment to moment gameplay is both visceral and fun. I honestly don't think it's that hard to do, but if you dump everything and the kitchen sink into a game, there's not much of a chance the core gameplay is ever going to receive enough attention to move beyond being "okay".

wouldn't have come up with all those stretch goals if he was given complete freedom.

Pillars of Eternity - a spiritual successor to IE games that drops the good things and copies the shit ones.

Despite all the name-dropping of BG, it was a given the gameplay would take more inspiration from the combat-centric games Black Isle worked on. Their deviations weren't unintentional.

 

[tuluse]

I have nothing against fun, but why does an rpg have to be visceral. Some of my best friends favorite games are the opposite of visceral. If I was making a party based tactical RPG, visceral wouldn't be the near the top of the list of adjectives I'd think of.

 

[prodigydancer]

Despite all the name-dropping of BG, it was a given the gameplay would take more inspiration from the combat-centric games Black Isle worked on. Their deviations weren't unintentional.

And it was an unfortunate decision. IWD and IWD2 aren't bad games per se but compared to BG and BG2 they are but pale likenesses.

 

[Sensuki]

Josh on the loot stuff:

Gauntlets of Ogre Might aren't unique items and they're on a list with Bracers of Spiritual Power. I.e., there is a 50/50 chance each time Hands_7 list comes up that you will get one or the other. This is no way "Icewind Dale style" since the defining (and greatly disliked) characteristic of the IWD loot lists was randomized unique items.

The more containers there are that use a randomized list, the more normalized the output will become over time. QA's reports on total cp at the end of the game are fairly consistent or, more importantly, they are not significantly inconsistent.

I didn't generate the original loot lists, so I've been going through them and making adjustments lately. The currency drop lists seem like their ranges are fairly tight unless they are being used oddly in specific locations. Some of the generic weapon and armor lists do have some un-fun entries on them like a chance to get a normal on a list that is dominantly Fine with the possibility of Exceptional.

After the game goes gold, we will be spending all of the time up to launch working on a Day 0 patch. After launch, we will continue to work on patch items. We haven't discussed time off yet.

Adam just implemented the seed for loot a couples of weeks ago.