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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,927
I have to chime in here. The die roll is a d20, and asuming the AC range is 20 (10 to -10) for a 2e (NOT 3!) game, i.e. every IE game except IWD2, +1 on a d20 is ~+5%. In the above example, +1 does NOT = +5, +4 is +20% and +5 is +25% so the incremental increase from +1 to-hit is +5%, ffs. The +4 has NOTHING TO DO with the bless spell! Or, for the mathematically disenfranchised, +4 was +20% and +5 was +25% so that the total change in your chance to hit was +5% (don't get confused and think about it as a change in the bonus to hit, which is a 25% bonus to the bonus (4 to 5)).

Both you and Volourn are wrong. DnD used dice rolls, not percentages or absolute values. Bless is a +1 bonus to a D20 dice roll. This is not at all the same as 5%. AB is not chance to hit. It is a bonus to a dice roll. The dice roll VS your opponent's armor class is the real "CHANCE TO HIT".

THEREFORE, It is a minimum increase of 5.26% and a maximum of 100% (if you previously could only hit the enemy on a 20). That's what made D20 such a balanced system. Every plus 1 was always useful and meant something.

I also explained this in a previous post:

This is completely incorrect. Bless is a +1 to your AB which does not necessarily translate into 5% increase chance to hit.

If your enemy has an AC of 15, and you have an AB of 6, adding the roll gives you a range of 7-26, which means you have a 45% chance to hit. Bless adding to this means you now have a 50% chance to hit the enemy, but your chance to hit has actually increased by 11.11%. If you previously only had a 5% chance to hit, bless would actually increase your chance to hit by 100%.

Now bless is a fairly minor spell but that +1 AB is always relevant because numbers in DnD are small and not bloated. Anytime you find an enemy that you actually miss against fairly often is always a good opportunity to use a bless spell. On top of this, the spell as opposed to more powerful buffs lasts a long bloody time. I recall in IWD2 being able to clear maps before my bless ran out. There is almost no excuse not to cast it all the time. :)

Honestly, pretty fucking awesome for something you get at level 1.
No no no. What you assert is a +100% chance is the percent increase over the previous value. Ffs, if you hit 1/20 that is 5%. 2/20 is 10%, but results in a 100% increase. You are correct in your observation that a 100% increase is better than a 10% increase (10/20 vs 11/20), but such behavior is also captured in the PoE system of accuracy vs defense.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
3,028
[/QUOTE]What is.... How does .... But Josh.... I .... Seriously dammit! I respect, respected at least, Sawyer's knowledge about RPGs, he is clearly a guy who knows about this stuff. But this is the best he could come up with? I know I'm stretching it a little, but this is worse than all the popamole crap we got in the past years, because in those, you at least had to be careful what attributes and abilites you upgrade, because they meant something. But according to this, you can just blindly assign points in this game, and you will get an almost identical result.

Everybody was screaming at Josh about this balance bullshit from the very beginning, and he took a dump on that feedback. I really hope they fix this, because if this stupid ruleset fucks up my dream RPG, I will murder someone.

Someone really should post this on the Obsidian forums, so Josh sees it. I wonder if he has anything to add.[/QUOTE]

I am honestly considering that JS does not really like RPG's- or at least has some deep seated resentment anger and hatred for RPG's or perhaps the people who like RPG's. Much of this feels like a big passive aggressive release of aggression that had been growing inside of him for many years.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
You're missing the point.

When confronted with a class-based RPG, certain people react with horror to anything that allows the classes to be more flexible. They say "No, don't change my class archetype! That class shouldn't be able to do that! Just add another class instead if you wanna do that!"

Yet these same people have absolutely no problem with the even larger flexibility inherent in classless RPG systems.

And some people also like both Quake 3 and Rainbow Six for different reasons, they just might not like the result of a mish-mash between the two.

If you're making a class based system then make sure those classes feel very distinct, have little to no overlap and complement one another in different ways, otherwise why bother with it? Go classless.

That said, while I certainly don't like the "thief skills being accesible to everyone" approach I think Josh succeeded (or will succeed) in making for example Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Barb play much more differently than it was the case in IE games (I especially like what he did with the ranger class).
 
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Volrath

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,299
Osvir
Did you read any of felipepepe 's post? His examples why P:E sucks balls?

What specifically is wrong with P:E? Could you let us know?
He hasn't played it duh.

Anyway, the beta isn't fucking fun. I really didn't think Sawyer's autistic bullhsit was going to fuck the game up this badly, but goddamnit it has.

All the beta encourages me to do is start up BG2 for the gazillionth time. It's... disheartening.

Edit:
Also, where the fuck is Roguey, why isn't he/she/it posting in this thread?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
In fairness, the beta is pretty much unplayable unless you get lucky. I mean, I just tried to do another run though. I did no saves, no loads, and the only screen I exited to was to get to lion map. Next thing I knew BB Wizard had no grimoire, only had a shield, and my cleric was using fists. WTF?

I still managed to killed almost all the lions even though I stopped caring.

How can we legit test stuff if the basics aren't even working? L0L

Can't wait until update so it's at least stable.

Thank god, I didn't pay specifically for the ebta and it wa sjsut thrown in. At least I get WL2, physical copy, fancy books, and a potential expansion plus beta fun.

It does have dwarves though. I give them that.
 
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FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
You could memorize one knock spell, rest between every unlock, and use it to not need any one with lock picking in the whole party.

If you didn't do this, you're a dirty larper since it was the most efficient way to get through locks.

Well, hello there, Roguey.
No wonder you need Sawyer in your life.
Also I hardly consider wasting spell slots on knock a good thing.
I'm sure "getting through locks" is more important than getting through enemies, though.

Therefore lockpicking was a useless skill in the IE games.

You can kill everybody with just swords, therefore all other weapons are useless.
No, you balancetards certainly don't want as few options as possible and as less freedom as possible.

By contrast, mechanics is actually useful in PoE because you can't bypass it.

:lol:

However, you still don't need a rogue since any class can learn to pick locks.

Yeah, because everybody is a rogue. Tyranny of choice. Instead of being "forced" to take a rogue now you have a party of 6 identical characters. What is the benefit exactly? Funny how balancetards claim that it's the IE games that had ilussion of choice.

But yes, PoE classes primarily matter in combat.

But.. but.. I thought the quests and dialogues and shit are "the game"? That's what Infinitron told me. You're telling me that in "THE GAME" classes don't matter?
 
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Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
There was a lot of cool utility spells to play with, that were kept useful even in the epic levels of Throne of Bhall. Stuff like Knock, Protection from Evil, Protection from Petrification, Charm, Identify, Sleep, Invisibility, Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, etc... all these are all on Lv 1-3.
How are those utility spells (aside from Knock and Identify)? They're all used for the purpose of combat. And PoE does have Dispel-equivalents, various Charm spells, etc.
 
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imweasel

Guest
Muscle rogues it is. Muscle everything actually. :D

I'm not sure why Sawyer thought it would be a great idea to add in an extra attribute that does nothing other than modifiy the damage output of all weapons. Might already does that. But I am wondering a lot about Sawyer and his design decisions these days. "Add in complexity where there is none" seems to be his motto.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,499
No no no. What you assert is a +100% chance is the percent increase over the previous value. Ffs, if you hit 1/20 that is 5%. 2/20 is 10%, but results in a 100% increase. You are correct in your observation that a 100% increase is better than a 10% increase (10/20 vs 11/20), but such behavior is also captured in the PoE system of accuracy vs defense.

I'm quite sure you are wrong again. DnD was designed so that every +1 mattered. Pillars of Shitternity is designed so that nothing matters, everything must be BALANCED!!!
 

msxyz

Augur
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
296
It's all sort of weird considering these guys made a lot of the Infinity Engine games. At what point did they decide all their old work sucked?
The lead designer Sawyer worked only on IWD2 which is probably the weakest of all IE games and used the 3rd edition D&D. This is truly his first game where he could do as he pleased. The results are... puzzling to say the least
 
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Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
I am honestly considering that JS does not really like RPG's- or at least has some deep seated resentment anger and hatred for RPG's or perhaps the people who like RPG's. Much of this feels like a big passive aggressive release of aggression that had been growing inside of him for many years.

:lol::salute:

That doesn't even make sense. Again, thats how JE has ALWAYS been. Dude was never afraid to speak up.
 
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coffeetable

Savant
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
446
In fairness, the beta is pretty much unplayable unless you get lucky. I mean, I just tried to do another run though. I did no saves, no loads, and the only screen I exited to was to get to lion map. Next thing I knew BB Wizard had no grimoire, only had a shield, and my cleric was using fists. WTF?

I still managed to killed almost all the lions even though I stopped caring.

How can we legit test stuff if the basics aren't even working? L0L

Can't wait until update so it's at least stable.

Thank god, I didn't pay specifically for the ebta and it wa sjsut thrown in. At least I get WL2, physical copy, fancy books, and a potential expansion plus beta fun.

It does have dwarves though. I give them that.
did you delete all the saves in the save folder? or did you just not save the game?
 

Hormalakh

Magister
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
1,503
"Uncommon combinations" is a nice touch. Not sure about making the text red though as that usually signals a dangerous choice.

Point 5: Not sure about that, too much detail right off the bat can be overwhelming and offputting. Sometimes less is more.

Thanks for the feedback. Colors can be changed for the uncommon combinations (blue instead of red, etc).

I understand. The current system isn't so bad, as long as you know that you have "more detail" in the little tiny icons at the top. Of course, when leveling up, it becomes very important. I'll do another one on level-ups and my gripes with that system.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,153
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Hi, I would like to give away my beta key. I am not going to have time to play the beta.
I am asking for 2 conditions:
1) already be a project eternity backer
2) give feedback to Obsidian
Hello. I would like that beta key if you haven't given it to someone else already.
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
10,409
Location
Italy
Tweaking or revising the atrribute system won't save it. It needs to be salvaged, just like everything else in this game (other than the writing and beautiful art assests), because the the fundamental design of the mechanics and systems is pitiful.

This is meant to be constructive criticism, because I really want this to be a good game.

It won't happen.
Really, it's like Elemental: War of Magic all over again.
I'm sorry for bringing this example back one more time, but I was one of those who pre-ordered it before release, and I'm witnessing exactly the same pattern here.
  • The project banked on nostalgia over an old, fantastic game (Master of Magic).
  • People supported it despite the signs that it would be a different beast, what with Wardell promising to "improve" on the formula, providing "balance" and everything
  • The Yes-Men on the team never challenged Wardell's "vision"
  • When the Alpha (and later the Beta) was released, a big portion of the testers raised the alarm over the blandness of the system (while others wanted to believe Wardell that it was all a matter of "fine tuning")
  • Those testers were either underestimated, belittled or flatly ignored. Of course it was the only possible thing to do at the time, since they basically were saying that the game needed to be re-thought from the ground up.
  • Wardell and his team charged on, until they finally smashed into a wall.
It's all there, with the same symptoms too (a controlling Lead Designer, the obsession for balance leading to Hopeless Blandness everywhere, and so on).
At least Wardell got the lesson after the debacle, he stepped down, and appointed a new Lead Designer to re-think the game from scratch.

[Eventually Derek Paxton succeeded in bringing some life into the third iteration of the game. He had to follow many of the users' suggestions while indeed adding good ideas of his own. But basically, what he did was making stuff matter. Instead of giving silly and unnoticeable "bonuses" to the different kinds of weapons, he made them WILDLY different, each providing UNIQUE abilities that changed the tactical approach on the field. Heroes were given recognizable paths, the civilizations Leaders were given totally peculiar strenghts and weaknesses, and so on]

Now, as some are saying, maybe the story part will be enough to offset the system's evident blandness.
But I doubt it since, if I'm not given a valid reason to create a party of characters I care about and start adventuring and treasure hunting with them, I won't even be interested in going through the story to begin with.
Also people argue that the direction of the game was made known from the beginning.
It won't matter.
The larger audience doesn't read every tidbit of information.
They see a game which looks exactly like BG2 and they will expect something similar.
Even if they don't expect it, they'll still compare the new game to it.
It's unavoidable, it's what will happen.

I'm glad I didn't back this game, even though I was tempted.
I did back Torment though, and I regret it now.
These guys look like they don't know what they're doing, and unless I'm mistaken, the team is more or less they same...
 
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