Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Why is creating a Wizard and playing him as a Pyromancer in PoE bad, but creating a classless character in Divinity:OS and playing him as a Pyromancer okay?

There are currently 5 "fire" themed spells available to a level 5 Wizard (1 level 1, 3 level 2, 1 level 3), but there are 12 empty Grimoire slots. You can't put a spell into multiple slots to increase its casts (at least in the beta), so what is a "Pyromancer" going to do with the 7 free slots? Put ice and lightning spells in them that work just as well as their 5 fire spells?

You're missing the point.

When confronted with a class-based RPG, certain people react with horror to anything that allows the classes to be more flexible. They say "No, don't change my class archetype! That class shouldn't be able to do that! Just add another class instead if you wanna do that!"

Yet these same people have absolutely no problem with the even larger flexibility inherent in classless RPG systems.

 

[Volourn]

On top of that, in DnD (or DOS) 'pyromancers' actually get some cool fire based spells that do more than x fukkin'd amage. FFS

 

[felipepepe]

Why is creating a Wizard and playing him as a Pyromancer in PoE bad, but creating a classless character in Divinity:OS and playing him as a Pyromancer okay?

Seriously? Because in D:OS I can say "I'll do a Pyromancer!", and the game will say "cool bro, spend your points in the fire school, and be sure to buy fire spells, as well as fire-related perks and equipments to help you".
Go in PoE saying "I'll make a Pyromancer!" and the game will go "uh? We don't have a fire school bro, just some spells that have fire on them stuff in it. You won't get any bonuses, perk, trait, equipment or whatever."

You know what being a "Chanter Necromancer" means? That of the 7 Lv 1 invocations you had to choose, you choose the two that summon some dead guys. No perk, no bonus, no school... nothing. If that's not LARPing, I don't what is.

Really, that's like creating a Lv.1 Mage and calling him "Gran-Master of Knowledge", just because you gave him Identify.

 

[Zed]

Why is creating a Wizard and playing him as a Pyromancer in PoE bad, but creating a classless character in Divinity:OS and playing him as a Pyromancer okay?

Seriously? Because in D:OS I can say "I'll do a Pyromancer!", and the game will say "cool bro, spend your points in the fire school, and be sure to buy fire spells, as well as fire-related perks and equipments to help you".
Go in PoE saying "I'll make a Pyromancer!" and the game will go "uh? We don't have a fire school bro, just some spells that have fire on them stuff in it. You won't get any bonuses, perk, trait, equipment or whatever."

You know what being a "Chanter Necromancer" means? That of the 7 Lv 1 invocations you had to choose, you choose the two that summon some dead guys. No perk, no bonus, no school... nothing. If that's not LARPing, I don't what is.

Really, that's like creating a Lv.1 Mage and calling him "Gran-Master of Knowledge", just because you gave him Identify.

this post is mostly accurate but you stumbled at the bit about equipment because D:OS uses randomized spunk

 

[agris]

"D&D Bless is +1 to hit. That's a 5% increase chance to hit."
\
Is it? Is it really?

let's say you have a level 1 fighter with weapon focus, 14 stength, and the + to attack as a L1 fighter. That gives him +4 to attack. That +1 makes it +5> That's WAY more than +5% you stupid dumbass.

I have to chime in here. The die roll is a d20, and assuming the AC range is 20 (10 to -10) for a 2e (NOT 3!) game, i.e. every IE game except IWD2, +1 on a d20 is ~+5%. In the above example, +1 does NOT = +5, +4 is +20% and +5 is +25% so the incremental increase from +1 to-hit is +5%, ffs. The +4 has NOTHING TO DO with the bless spell! Or, for the mathematically disenfranchised, +4 was +20% and +5 was +25% so that the total change in your chance to hit was +5% (don't get confused and think about it as a change in the bonus to hit, which is a 25% bonus to the bonus (4 to 5)).

 

[tuluse]

Or rather because Sawyer says they render skills useless.

Take Knock which I remember was brought about as an example. I don't remember actually using it much. Except when the rogue couldn't do it... or if I didn't have a rogue in the party.
But sure, when everyone can unlock... having a spell that does the same thing would be useless.
Tyranny of choice, man.

You could memorize one knock spell, rest between every unlock, and use it to not need any one with lock picking in the whole party.

If you didn't do this, you're a dirty larper since it was the most efficient way to get through locks.

Therefore lockpicking was a useless skill in the IE games.

By contrast, mechanics is actually useful in PoE because you can't bypass it. However, you still don't need a rogue since any class can learn to pick locks.

 

[felipepepe]

When confronted with a class-based RPG, certain people react with horror to anything that allows the classes to be more flexible. They say "No, don't change my class archetype! That class shouldn't be able to do that! Just add another class instead if you wanna do that!"

Yet these same people have absolutely no problem with the even larger flexibility inherent in classless RPG systems.

There's no contradiction here. Classes should have a purpose, a meaning. If you're gonna makes everyone do everything, just ditch classes altogether. PoE skills & stats system is that of a classless game already. Getting stuck in between is what sucks. Why have a Rogue if anyone can sneak, open locks and disarm traps? AND THERE'S NO STEALING?

You could memorize one knock spell, rest between every unlock, and use it to not need any one with lock picking in the whole party.

I thought that Sawyer had fixed spamming rest, so this shouldn't be a problem. :3

Also, PoE has 5 skills and 6 party members. How can lockpick become relevant this way? It will just be used to gate out people depending on their Lv.

 

[Lhynn]

this post is mostly accurate but you stumbled at the bit about equipment because D:OS uses randomized spunk

D:OS gear is specialized tho, you can get stuff with +fire +int for example. It may not be good itemization, but his point still holds.

 

[Volourn]

Because Rogues aren't sneakers in PE. They are fighters who sneak very well. L0L


"I have to chime in here. The die roll is a d20, and assuming the AC range is 20 (10 to -10) for a 2e (NOT 3!) game, i.e. every IE game except IWD1, +1 on a d20 is ~+5%. In the above example, +1 does NOT = +5, +4 is +20% and +5 is +25% so the incremental increase from +1 to-hit is +5%, ffs. The +4 has NOTHING TO DO with the bless spell! Or, for the mathematically disenfranchised, +4 was +20% and +5 was +25% so that the total change in your chance to hit was +5% (don't get confused and think about it as a change in the bonus to hit, which is a 25% bonus to the bonus (4 to 5))."

It's not a more than 5% for the person receieving it. A bless' +1 to hit is A LOT more beneficial to a low level character than a high level character for a reason.

 

[Infinitron]

There's no contradiction here. Classes should have a purpose, a meaning. If you're gonna makes everyone do everything, just ditch classes altogether. PoE skills & stats system is that of a classless game already. Getting stuck in between is what sucks. Why have a Rogue if anyone can sneak, open locks and disarm traps? AND THERE'S NO STEALING?

You remember how back in AD&D they were called Thieves? There was a reason they changed that. We discussed all of this loooong ago.

As for being stuck in between, some will say it sucks, others will say best of both worlds.

Anyway, good night grogs. I'll leave this thread to tuluse now.

 

[Maculo]

When confronted with a class-based RPG, certain people react with horror to anything that allows the classes to be more flexible. They say "No, don't change my class archetype! That class shouldn't be able to do that! Just add another class instead if you wanna do that!"

Yet these same people have absolutely no problem with the even larger flexibility inherent in classless RPG systems.

There's no contradiction here. Classes should have a purpose, a meaning. If you're gonna makes everyone do everything, just ditch classes altogether. PoE skills & stats system is that of a classless game already. Getting stuck in between is what sucks. Why have a Rogue if anyone can sneak, open locks and disarm traps? AND THERE'S NO STEALING?

You could memorize one knock spell, rest between every unlock, and use it to not need any one with lock picking in the whole party.

I thought that Sawyer had fixed spamming rest, so this shouldn't be a problem. :3

While I agree that specialization is often something to look forward to, I would disagree on your assessment about rogues. They are not meant to be a stealth class, but rather a damage dealer class tied to debuffs that they can inflict. They are a combat class in POE. Although, technically, I would argue that all the classes are pretty much combat classes, which may be a design problem in itself.

I will say that assuming that not much changes with regards to classes and attributes, Obsidian really should push the talents/perks available. Even if attributes and class customization remains low, they can at least compensate with a shit ton of talents/perks that does allow one to make the pyromage over time.

 

[Rake]

Too soon to have a final opinion on combat as a whole( i suspect it will be alright, meaning it won't annoy me and i'll be able to enjoy the other aspects of the game), but so far magic is a huge disapointment.
ffs someone in the Obs. forums said that he gave his mage an arquebus and played him as a gunman because the gun did better damage than his fucking spells.

 

[tuluse]

There's no contradiction here. Classes should have a purpose, a meaning. If you're gonna makes everyone do everything, just ditch classes altogether. PoE skills & stats system is that of a classless game already. Getting stuck in between is what sucks. Why have a Rogue if anyone can sneak, open locks and disarm traps? AND THERE'S NO STEALING?

Rogues are fighters who specialize in dealing damage to single targets. They are not D&D thieves.

This post is basically, "classes are named slightly differently from what I expect, that means they're shit."

 

[Shadenuat]

someone in the Obs. forums said that he gave his mage an arquebus and played it as a gunman because the gua had better damage than his fucking spells.

Not really, regular fireballing is more effective than a gun. Arquebus does between 30 and 60 dmg and can crit up to 100, but only on 1 enemy, fireball does 20-60 in AoE and I believe it goes through stamina right onto hp, and casts faster than guns reload. For example my rogue using gun did ~2000 dmg per playthrough, wizard did more than 7000.

Guns are superior weapons compared to any other ranged weapons though.

 

[Rake]

someone in the Obs. forums said that he gave his mage an arquebus and played it as a gunman because the gua had better damage than his fucking spells.

Not really, regular fireballing is more effective than a gun. Arquebus does between 30 and 60 dmg and can crit up to 100, but only on 1 enemy, fireball does 20-60 in AoE and I believe it goes through stamina right onto hp, and casts faster than guns reload. For example my rogue using gun did ~2000 dmg per playthrough, wizard did more than 7000.

Guns are superior weapons compared to any other ranged weapons though.

Good to know.

 

[Volourn]

And, you can use fireball a limited amount fo times and hurt your allies. *shrug*

 

[felipepepe]

This post is basically, "classes are named slightly differently from what I expect, that means they're shit."

More like "PoE classes only matter in combat".

Seriously, you could take the difference between the Warrior, the Barbarian and the Rogue and turn it into Perks/Traits. "Vicious Killer: Deals +25% damage on enemies with negative status effects".

 

[tuluse]

I believe it goes through stamina right onto hp

???

Stamina doesn't act a shield for HP, all attacks to damage to both.

 

[Shadenuat]

Wizard has a lot of various fireballs. Flaming orb which is a level 2 spell is also p. powerful.

I believe it goes through stamina right onto hp

???

Stamina doesn't act a shield for HP, all attacks to damage to both.

Well I dunno, maybe it goes through armor or has a high saving throw or somethin. Flame attacks are just very effective that way.
And it does act as sort of the "shield", because of health:stamina ratio.
I think I seen some spells that do health dmg directly but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[tuluse]

More like "PoE classes only matter in combat".

Seriously, you could take the difference between the Warrior, the Barbarian and the Rogue and turn it into Perks/Traits. "Vicious Killer: Deals +25% damage on enemies with negative status effects".

I think 11 classes were mistake personally. I wish fighter was called defender and then both it and rogue were subclasses of fighter.

But yes, PoE classes primarily matter in combat. This has been known for many months now. I know you knew it.

 

[bonescraper]

Rogues are fighters who specialize in dealing damage to single targets. They are not D&D thieves.

Yes, rogues are figters who specialize in dealing damage. Barbarians are rogues who specialize in dealing damage. Monks are barbarians who specialize in dealing damage. Fighters are monks who specialize in dealing damage.

It's all true, beacaue all of them can use the same gear, and they're all specialized in dealing fucking damage. Such diversity through flexibility!

 

[set]

They would be like the stamina-restoring spells are now. I am assuming some of them are at-will, some per-encounter and some per-rest.

Okay, well:

If there are at-will healing spells, then you might as well enable health regen rather than make people cast them themselves by rote.

If there aren't any at-will healing spells, but there are per-encounter healing spells, then you're artificially making people wait until a fight has begun so they can heal themselves, which is kinda weird (although from a gamist perspective might be interesting). Or you might say that per-encounter spells are effectively at-will outside of fights, in which case see the previous item.

And if they're all per-rest, well, you're back to D&D-style healing resources, but in that case why not just make people rest when they're out of them? Who needs the stamina?

So, interesting idea, but not without its faults.

Resource management is the hallmark of any good dungeon crawler. You should be able to replenish your stamina/endurance/health/whateverthefuck, but the methods of doing so should be finite.

I would say, they should strive for environmental-based healing -- dungeons that have "fountains of youth" (which can be depleted by drinking from them), the ability to pray to entities to receive healing (or a nasty surprise), with a lengthy cooldown, or other creative methods which are exhaustible but allow the party to continue adventuring. I think a more creative approach will be more positively received than implementing traditional healing spells and the like.

I mean, Net Hack's a pretty good example of this idea -- a lot of your resource management is centered around having your god favor you, so you can receive boons to make your quest successful. And WC3 had fountains of healing for some of its dungeon crawling areas - though those were inexhaustible and thus 'toxic' to resource management.

Healing potions, healing spells, and passive regeneration in general suck. Make parties retreat to an inn, at the very least.

Actually, Path of Exile offered one good solution, at least for an ARPG - your potions recharge based on your skills - it's pretty simple and intuitive, forcing you to fight to restore your health or forcing you to head back to town.

 

[Maculo]

This post is basically, "classes are named slightly differently from what I expect, that means they're shit."

More like "PoE classes only matter in combat".

Seriously, you could take the difference between the Warrior, the Barbarian and the Rogue and turn it into Perks/Traits. "Vicious Killer: Deals +25% damage on enemies with negative status effects".

I think it actually goes farther than that. Rogues not only do more damage against debuffed, but they have various ways to inflict the negative status effect. They are debuffers in a sense.

Warriors (shitty at the moment) have a lot of oh shit buttons, where as barbarians have AOE abilities. Essentially, they are built along active abilities as opposed to passives. The passives are additional boosters.

Yes, rogues are figters who specialize in dealing damage. Barbarians are rogues who specialize in dealing damage. Monks are barbarians who specialize in dealing damage. Fighters are monks who specialize in dealing damage.

It's all true, beacaue all of them can use the same gear, and they're all specialized in dealing fucking damage. Such diversity through flexibility!

I do not think you are giving enough consideration to the differences in active abilities between the classes. Each class is damage dealer plus a different role in my opinion. Rogues are debuffers, warriors have oh shit buttons, priests are buffers, etc.

I am not saying it is a perfect system, but I think it the meat of the classes are in the abilities and their role alongside damage dealing.

edit: I cannot type to save my life tonight.

 

[set]

Why is creating a Wizard and playing him as a Pyromancer in PoE bad, but creating a classless character in Divinity:OS and playing him as a Pyromancer okay?

There are currently 5 "fire" themed spells available to a level 5 Wizard (1 level 1, 3 level 2, 1 level 3), but there are 12 empty Grimoire slots. You can't put a spell into multiple slots to increase its casts (at least in the beta), so what is a "Pyromancer" going to do with the 7 free slots? Put ice and lightning spells in them that work just as well as their 5 fire spells?

I assume the game is balanced around actually using all the slots in your book.

I think they need to implement passive skills that add interesting elements -- like

"Your grimoire slots are halved, but X does Y Z% better." Or -- "You can only use X-elemental spells, but you can put duplicate X-elemental spells in multiple slots to increase their casts". You shouldn't force players to use all the spells at their disposal, just the ones they like or want their character to roleplay. I know I always disliked that about BG2, that even if you chose "Necromancy" as your specialization you tended to use a huge swath of spells, instead of focusing on summoning/death related spells.

Honestly, the best passive skills in any RPGs are the ones which come with huge downsides and huge upsides. This alters the player's playstyle. Path of Exile has a lot nice ones, but you can honestly go a little wild. Most of these would be beneficial additions to Pillars's class diversity if they were ported over to it:

Ancestral Bond

• Can summon up to 1 additional X
• You can't deal Damage with Y, yourself

Avatar of Fire

• Converts 50% of X,Y,Z damage to fire
• Can't deal non-fire damage

Blood Magic

• Spells in your grimoire aren't consumed on use
• Spend Health/Stamina instead for Skills/Spells

X Inoculation

• Maximum Stamina becomes 1
• Immune to X

Eldritch Battery

• Converts all X to Y

Elemental Equilibrium

• Enemies you hit with Elemental Damage temporarily get +25% Resistances to those Elements and -50% Resistances to other Elements

X Aegis

• All bonuses from an equipped X apply to your Minions/Summons/Allies instead of you

Pain Attunement

• 30% more Spell Damage when on Low Health

• (or even, 30% more X Damage when on Full Stamina/Health)

Point Blank

• Projectile Attacks deal up to 50% more Damage to targets at the start of their movement, dealing less Damage to targets as the projectile ravels further

Resolute Technique

• Your hits can't be Evaded (or glancing blow, whatever it's called in poe)
• Never deal Critical Strikes

Unwavering Stance

• Cannot X enemy Attacks
• Cannot be Y

 

[Rake]

But yes, PoE classes primarily matter in combat. This has been known for many months now. I know you knew it.

We knew many things, and i didn't like many of them. But Sawyer responded to critisism saying that people often react negatively on things on Paper, to discover that in practise they work just fine.
So i was waiting for beta to come out before i start worrying. Now the beta is out, and people are reporting that the things that sounded like bad design 6 months ago, remain bad in practise.
So the "we knew from the start" doesn't mean much.