Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

I don't know if it is a viable build, but sawyer has promised all build would be, so if it isn't he has failed.

I am pretty sure that not using your attribute points at all is not what he intended when said that. That's like saying a character who refuses to level up from level 1 should be viable.

Of course, the fact of the matter is that a complete garbage character in a six character party CAN be "viable" in the sense that the rest of his party will carry him through. He just won't be able to contribute anything.

 

[mastroego]

Wat? It's not even being developed by the same company.

Yeah I wasn't sure, but there's some overlap with the teams IIRC.
Point is, the new BG2, Master of Magic, Alpha Centauri and Torment aren't coming - in all likelihood.
If and when they'll arrive, I'll be here and happy to buy them.

ATM, I'm really fed up with these Lead Designers/Messiahs and their Visions of Spreadsheets™ .

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah I wasn't sure, but there's some overlap with the teams IIRC.

The overlap consists of Chris Avellone writing companions for both games, and George Ziets, lead area designer of Torment, having assisted a bit with creating the Pillars of Eternity setting.

Point is, the new BG2, Master of Magic, Alpha Centauri and Torment aren't coming in all likelihood.

You forgot Fallout.

 

[Abu Antar]

There have been no updates yet, have there?

 

[coffeetable]

ATM, I'm really fed up with these Lead Designers/Messiahs and their Visions of Spreadsheets™ .

agreed. id like to see some designers branch out and try scientific python

 

[Zed]

There have been no updates yet, have there?

a few posts on badgame and somethingawful, and the kotaku rpg design article.
glaring inactivity on the obsidian forums.

edit: oddly satisfying

 

[Duraframe300]

There have been no updates yet, have there?

a few posts on badgame and somethingawful, and the kotaku rpg design article.
glaring inactivity on the obsidian forums.

edit: oddly satisfying

Well the QA staff is quite active on the Obsidian forums.

 

[Abu Antar]

There have been no updates yet, have there?

a few posts on badgame and somethingawful, and the kotaku rpg design article.
glaring inactivity on the obsidian forums.

As I thought, then.

I'm done with the beta for now. Final impressions that have nothing to do with obvious bugs:

-Combat fell like a clusterfuck on my first run. After that, I have been killing stuff very easily on normal. AI and auto attack will improve things.
-Better feedback is needed in combat. I want to hear when I hit the enemy, or just something.
-Characters need to be easier to see.
-Pathfinding is one of the most important things for me, needs fixing. Should be top priority.
-Backgrounds look great, even if they are very static.
-Most if not all quests can be solved peacefully. (I like that.) Tried both violent and non-violent solutions.
-Attributes could use re-balancing or an overhaul. I rolled an amaua 20 might, and an orlan 3-4 might, and the damage difference was 22-30/14-22. I only tried this after reading posts here.
-Leveling up feels a bit automated compared to IE games. I miss feats, but it's good that JES said they will be in the final game.
-Music is solid, but it doesn't blow me away.
-Writing is solid. Nothing amazing or bad so far.
-I'm ok with the resting system so far.
-I'm undecided about the inventory. I don't mind the stash or the fact that you have all character inventories on one screen.
-On the inventory screen, all the defences you see should have a description when you hover over them with the mouse. I should not have to go to the character screen to figure out what stats do.
-Some dungeons and parts of some other dungeons looked nice. Some areas felt very bland.
-Having done most of the content on my last run, was having loads of money.

 

[felipepepe]

whoever says there are no non-combat spells is not paying attention. there's Charm, Domination, Bless, Aid and a crapton of other equivalent spells/abilities in the BB. were you trying to tell what each spell did by its icon or something?

Do you even know what non-combat spells are? You can't even cast PoE's Bless unless you're in combat already. You're playing a goddamn Wizard, who's only ability is casting fireballs and lame buffs, because "All men are equal outside of combat, so sayest the Lord".

How are those utility spells (aside from Knock and Identify)? They're all used for the purpose of combat.

You don't see Invisibility and Clairvoyance as utility spells? The fact that you can use Charm Person outside of combat, even altering dialog? That you must use Protection from Evil to summon Demons? Not to mention the fact that the other spells are hard counters. You cast Protection from Petrification, you are fucking protected from petrification. You countered one of the enemy's abilities, not slightly raised your chance against it.

Ironic to think that all the bullshit that Roguey kept bashing all those years about how Sawyer was against rolls in skill checks because it least to reloading, his fucking combat system is based on random rolls "I hope my protection works", instead of hard counters. Bravo!

 

[Infinitron]

Ironic to think that all the bullshit that Roguey kept bashing all those years about how Sawyer was against rolls in skill checks because it least to reloading, his fucking combat system is based on random rolls "I hope my protection works", instead of hard counters. Bravo!

As I explained earlier, since the effects are generally short-term, reloading is not strongly incentivized.

The rule of thumb, I think is, Randomness --> Tactical, Short-Term, Deterministic --> Strategic, Long-Term

 

[Rivmusique]

That no-attribute-points-spent build will do fine. More than fine, actually, as it is a cipher, which is one of the classes recognized as OP atm even by the creators (Sawyer said something about Druids in a tweet before beta went out, chanter is mentioned in 'known issues' and cipher was mentioned in one of sawyer's SA posts maybe? This may not have happened ... but my experience with ciphers showed them to be incredibly strong ). But even a fighter with nothing spent can go out, steal the BB priests large shield, the rogues hatchet, activate defender mode and tank just fine (steal the BB priests higher DT armor as well if you happened to pick a background that comes with low DT armor). Gear appropriately for damage and he'll do alright as well (amazing if you use the slow/high damage ranged stuff). It's just not a huge 'buff' right now going from min attribute to max (3-18 might is a 30% damage increase, 3-18 Dex is a +15 accuracy bonus. A 'very high' accuracy class is 25 accuracy base, there's not many 50+ deflection enemies in the beta). The numbers will no doubt be changed, (indeed, that kotaku post by sawyer said something about being ready to halve and double values as needed) lower base x and increased gains from attributes or something. I'm pretty sure they want you're attribute choice defining how you actually play a class. As it stands, it's just what you have equipped that decides what you should do with (some of the) classes in combat.

 

[Spockrock]

whoever says there are no non-combat spells is not paying attention. there's Charm, Domination, Bless, Aid and a crapton of other equivalent spells/abilities in the BB. were you trying to tell what each spell did by its icon or something?

Do you even know what non-combat spells are? You can't even cast PoE's Bless unless you're in combat already.

so, your issue is with not being able to pre-buff? can't help you there I'm afraid. pre-buffing was one of the things I hated in BG/IWD/NWN games. so the way it works in PoE is welcome by me.

for you there are modal skills you can keep active outside of combat, though

 

[felipepepe]

As I explained earlier, since the effects are generally short-term, reloading is not strongly incentivized.

Yeah, PoE's balanced design is that you can buff yourself against an enemy's skill, but your buff isn't that good, and the enemy skill isn't that bad... so why care? The game is so balanced that nothing really matters. Bravíssimo.

Seriously, where's the "Strategic, Long-Term" part here?

so, your issue is with not being able to pre-buff? can't help you there I'm afraid. pre-buffing was one of the things I hated in BG/IWD/NWN games. so the way it works in PoE is welcome by me.

Are you even reading my posts? I was talking about not having spells that are fucking useful outside of combat. Like having your Wizard magically open doors, reveal the map, charm people, make you invisible, etc...

I just mentioned Bless because you used it, a spell that can only be cast in combat, as shining example of non-combat spell. Think of it as an incentive to reflect a bit more before posting.

 

[Infinitron]

Pillars of Eternity Crowdfunding Period Open Through the Weekend

While originally Pillars of Eternity's crowdfunding period was supposed to end today, Obsidian has opted to slightly prolong it. The new deadline is Monday 25th 10:30 AM PDT, which means that, in practice, the project will still accept new backers (or alterations of pledges) throughout the weekend:

New Backers: To make sure new backers can get their pledges in, we're allowing new backers to create pledges throughout the weekend. On Monday morning our time at about 10:30 AM (PDT) we'll close off new backers and will move to pre-ordering soon thereafter.

Existing Backers: If you're an existing backer and haven't confirmed your pledge order yet (you should have hopefully received an e-mail nag from us today about that if not!) please do so as time permits! To complete your pledge order, head to the Backer Portal and click on the Select Reward button to start.​

​

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, PoE's balanced design is that you can buff yourself against an enemy's skill, but your buff isn't that good, and the enemy skill isn't that bad... so why care? The game is so balanced that nothing really matters. Bravíssimo.

Well, imagine a battle with a basilisk-type foe that keeps petrifying you for five seconds at a time because your saving throw against petrification sucks. You do get to escape from his grasp occasionally, which might allow you to escape, but you'll have a hard time actually defeating him.

 

[Athelas]

That you must use Protection from Evil to summon Demons? Not to mention the fact that the other spells are hard counters. You cast Protection from Petrification, you are fucking protected from petrification. You countered one of the enemy's abilities, not slightly raised your chance against it.

So they're utility spells...that help out in combat? Sounds to me like you want something more like Deus Ex or Divinity: Original Sin: games that give you lots of tools to interact with your environment. The Infinity Engine games were never that - I once tried using a summoned creature to trigger traps and it simply didn't work. Criticizing PoE on that basis is bizarre.

The fact that you can use Charm Person outside of combat, even altering dialog?

I honestly didn't know that, that's cool. But does it actually affect anything significant or is it cosmetic?

 

[felipepepe]

Well, imagine a battle with a basilisk-type foe that keeps petrifying you for five seconds at a time because your saving throw against petrification sucks. You do get to escape from his grasp occasionally, which might allow you to escape, but you'll have a hard time actually defeating him.

Random and frustrating as fuck, in a bad day you can die if your healer gets petrified at the wrong time, even with the buff on. How's this strategic? Much more interesting is having a game that consider Wizard spells valuable resources and forces you to spend 6 of them to fully protect your party. It's a battle that forces a heavy trade off on casters. A great designer would push this even forward, by making Basilisk resistant to melee attacks, meaning the toll on your spells is even heavier.

Sawyer just replaced it all by random dice rolls.

That you must use Protection from Evil to summon Demons? Not to mention the fact that the other spells are hard counters. You cast Protection from Petrification, you are fucking protected from petrification. You countered one of the enemy's abilities, not slightly raised your chance against it.

So they're utility spells...that help out in combat? Sounds to me like you want something more like Deus Ex or Divinity: Original Sin: games that give you lots of tools to interact with your environment. The Infinity Engine games were never that - I once tried using a summoned creature to trigger traps and it simply didn't work. Criticizing PoE on that basis is bizarre.

I pointed out various utility spells outside of combat as well, don't selectively quote those out. I just mentioned the hard counters to show how spells had weight and actual meaning. Read my example with the Basilisk above and you'll understand. Casting spells in IE matters, in PoE they are just buffs that raise your chances a bit.

And while IE were never Deus Ex, they game you tools to interact. Maybe summoning creatures to trigger traps doesn't work (which sound like a bug to me), but there was a lot you could do. As with many other things, instead of improving them, PoE just plain gives up.

 

[Infinitron]

I honestly didn't know that, that's cool. But does it actually affect anything significant or is it cosmetic?

It works only in specific scripted cases. For example: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23540

 

[made]

This is exhilarating. Abandon all hope, Codex.

 

[DosBuster]

Doesn't Sawyer keep tabs on the codex? I wonder if he's watching us right now..

 

[Athelas]

I pointed out various utility spells outside of combat as well, don't selectively quote those out.

I left them out because they were already addressed. Invisibility is gone because the game has a stealth system.

I just mentioned the hard counters to show how spells had weight and actual meaning. Read my example with the Basilisk above and you'll understand. Casting spells in IE matters, in PoE they are just buffs that raise your chances a bit.

Casting protection against petrification (a level 1 spell) in the IE games = being able to curbstomp over basilisks blind-folded. Such strategy. So pro. It would've been more interesting if protection against petrification had a trade-off, like lowering your movement speed or draining your health or something.

Maybe summoning creatures to trigger traps doesn't work (which sound like a bug to me)

More like a deliberate design decision. You also couldn't attack the ground to trigger the trap or similar actions.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Doesn't Sawyer keep tabs on the codex? I wonder if he's watching us right now..

At the end of a long day of balancing, when he's chilling out in his hollowed-out volcano lair with a stiff glass of vegetable juice, he checks this thread for some lulz. "Look at those grognards stuck in the 90s. God bless 'em."

 

[Crooked Bee]

I think some people ITT should accept the core design "for what it is." I understand being disappointed by it if it isn't to your liking, but I doubt Sawyer is gonna change it fundamentally anyway. The rather strict separation between combat and non-combat gameplay seems to be a given, for one. The more important question at this point, imho, is "What should be changed/revised to make the existing system better and more fun to play?" Stuff like giving more impact to the attributes, more abilities, more creative stuff to do for different classes in combat, tuning the way level-up works, adding some traits, etc. (Those are just random examples, I haven't really examined the game's design as deeply as other people ITT.)

Maybe we could have two separate beta feedback threads, one about Sawyer and the core design and another about how to improve the already existing system without changing it too much and the more specific feedback. Too bad these threads wouldn't stay on topic anyway.

 

[purpleblob]

I have a feeling reading this thread is much more entertaining than actually playing PoE when it's finally released....

 

[DosBuster]

This is the exact same scale of decline that happened with the wasteland 2 thread.