Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Tytus]

This is the exact same scale of decline that happened with the wasteland 2 thread.

So in short, Codex is level scaling to it's users?

 

[bonescraper]

I paid 160$ for PoE and all i got is this lousy trhead.

 

[Tytus]

I paid 160$ for PoE and all i got is this lousy trhead.

Ask for your money back

 

[felipepepe]

I think some people ITT should accept the core design "for what it is." I understand being disappointed by it if it isn't to your liking, but I doubt Sawyer is gonna change it fundamentally anyway. The rather strict separation between combat and non-combat gameplay seems to be a given, for one. The more important question at this point, imho, is "What should be changed/revised to make the existing system better and more fun to play?" Stuff like giving more impact to the attributes, more abilities, more creative stuff to do for different classes in combat, tuning the way level-up works, adding some traits, etc. (Those are just random examples, I haven't really examined the game's design as deeply as other people ITT.)

Problem here is that we're arguing against an invisible man. I.e., I say "Game should have really unique items", people reply "That's part of Lord Sawyer's Vision, you heretic, cause he's against hard counters and fun".

I can't separate Sawyerism from "true" flaws.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

This thread is delicious.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I don't can't separate Sawyerism from "true" flaws.

I didn't mean to imply there were "true" and "non-true" flaws. All flaws are "true" if they are flaws, but have different helpfulness when it comes to feedback and possible improvements that Obsidian can make.

I think the problem is that some people are too quick to jump from some specific feedback/criticism to the general "Sawyer sucks" or "I don't like this kind of RPG design". Of course, I guess you can trace all or most flaws back to the core design -- because obviously, the latter influences the former -- but that doesn't help much as feedback. That's why I said that, ideally, the two aspects should be discussed as separately as realistically possible. E.g. it might still be possible to design some better uniques even within Sawyer's system, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Even if you think those items suck or that items can't be unique without hard counters (I don't), I'd be careful to judge the game before seeing a wider variety of them. Remember, you're looking at a mundane-ified, spoiler-free beta taking place in Generic Fantasy Village.

 

[Raghar]

I paid 160$ for PoE and all i got is this lousy trhead.

You paid and you can participate in a lulzy thread.

 

[Raghar]

BTW, I don't want to download a pirated beta just to try character generation. Are character attributes from 2 to 18, or can you go above 18 during playing? And can you start with 1 in an attribute with heavy penalties and be called crippled?

 

[Black]

I think some people ITT should accept the core design "for what it is." I understand being disappointed by it if it isn't to your liking, but I doubt Sawyer is gonna change it fundamentally anyway. The rather strict separation between combat and non-combat gameplay seems to be a given, for one. The more important question at this point, imho, is "What should be changed/revised to make the existing system better and more fun to play?" Stuff like giving more impact to the attributes, more abilities, more creative stuff to do for different classes in combat, tuning the way level-up works, adding some traits, etc. (Those are just random examples, I haven't really examined the game's design as deeply as other people ITT.)

Problem here is that we're arguing against an invisible man. I.e., I say "Game should have really unique items", people reply "That's part of Lord Sawyer's Vision, you heretic, cause he's against hard counters and fun".

I can't separate Sawyerism from "true" flaws.

So we're looking at the beginning of a new religion here?

 

[Shadenuat]

BTW, I don't want to download a pirated beta just to try character generation. Are character attributes from 2 to 18, or can you go above 18 during playing? And can you start with 1 in an attribute with heavy penalties and be called crippled?

You can go up to 20 or 21 with right race and culture
Race value is the minimum (3-5)

 

[bonescraper]

I paid 160$ for PoE and all i got is this lousy trhead.

You paid and you can participate in a lulzy thread.

Yeah, i think it would be fair if Obsidian would transfer those funds to RPG Codex. The game might suck, but this thread entertains me for 3 days straight.

heavy penalties

No such thing in Sawyer's school of system design. You'll be fine with all attributes set to 3. This is not an exaggeration.

 

[Black]

http://www2.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml
Thanks, Obama/Sawyer.

 

[evdk]

I am pretty sure that not using your attribute points at all is not what he intended when said that. That's like saying a character who refuses to level up from level 1 should be viable.

Better balancing than Sawyer.

 

[felipepepe]

Even if you think those items suck or that items can't be unique without hard counters (I don't), I'd be careful to judge the game before seeing a wider variety of them. Remember, you're looking at a mundane-ified, spoiler-free beta taking place in Generic Fantasy Village.

So all the items in the beta behave the exact same way, but the unique items in the full game will be different for some reason? Are we going down the same "we are only showing you the bad parts, just wait for the awesome LA maps!" again?

 

[Infinitron]

Are we going down the same "we are only showing you the bad parts, just wait for the awesome LA maps!" again?

Yes?

Holy crap, how many times are we going to have to go through this again, I wonder? How long until the Codex learns what a beta is and how an unfinished game feels like? How much more exploding butthurt and threads that double in size every 24 hours?

Torment alpha, here we come!

 

[Shadenuat]

Obsidians really deliver sometimes:

 

[felipepepe]

You know tron, you would have a point if the stuff we pointed out almost a year ago in the W2 thread were all fixed.

There's nothing anywhere that even hints at items working differently in the full game. They created this beta for us to give feedback. I'm giving feedback, you're giving excuses.

 

[Spockrock]

I was talking about not having spells that are fucking useful outside of combat. Like having your Wizard magically open doors, reveal the map, charm people, make you invisible, etc...

ffs, that's what this is about. I didn't get that the first time because I never used wizards to magically do anything other than nuke hoards of enemies in computer games. yeah, I guess it's cool when you have *OPTIONS*, personally I don't care because it's superfluous

 

[coffeetable]

You'll be fine with all attributes set to 3. This is not an exaggeration.

yes it is

 

[bonescraper]

What we are dealing with here is a situation like this:

- "Hi there, i'm J.E. Sawyer. Remeber that apple pie you used to love as a kid. The kind your mom used to make? I'll make one just like that, just give me some of your money!"
- "Wow mr. Sawyer, that sounds great! I haven't eaten a cake that good since my mom passed away in 2003! Here's my money, take it!"
A few months pass, Sawyer appears again with a small portion of the pie for you to taste.
- "Well, i really didn't like your mum's pie all that much, so i made some adjustments. I threw some lemons in there, some Jalapeno peppers, a handful of garlic, got rid of all the apples etc. It's nothing major, but now it's has 6 flavors instead of one! Enjoy! If it's not quite up your alley, give me your feedback. I can always put Habaneros instead of Jalapenos!"

So, why the fuck Sawyer was made the main chef again?

You'll be fine with all attributes set to 3. This is not an exaggeration.

yes it is

No. I said fine. Not good. It certainly isn't unplayable.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

How long until the Codex learns what a beta is and how an unfinished game feels like? How much more exploding butthurt and threads that double in size every 24 hours?

If people were just ranting about bugs that are obviously going to be fixed I would agree with you, but they're not. It's entirely reasonable for Felipepepe to comment on the types of magic items we've seen so far.

Otherwise, people giving their opinions on the PoE beta... in a thread devoted to the PoE beta... when will this madness stop?

 

[mastroego]

I think some people ITT should accept the core design "for what it is." I understand being disappointed by it if it isn't to your liking, but I doubt Sawyer is gonna change it fundamentally anyway.

That's a given. It's too late.
On the other hand, while they got front-money from backers, they won't be seeing money from me or people like me. And, as a lost (potential) customer, I won't be buying any sequels, either.
We'll see how many we are.

Let me end on a positive note with a success story, for a change: Legend of Grimrock.
You know what it did right? It brought innovation while staying true to the games it was honoring.
And guess what?
I'll be buying the sequel to that.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Is the discussion between felipepepe and Infinitron about this?

Infinitron:

- You can only judge the merits of core mechanics on the basis of interesting content
- The final game will have interesting content, e.g. genuinely unique items will be included

Felipepepe:

- Flawed core mechanics preclude the possibility of interesting content
- The final game will have uninteresting content, e.g. genuinely unique items are impossible given Sawyer's design philosophy

Probably it's not, I haven't read a lot of this thread, but it looks like the same constant talking past each other as in the W2 thread.

edit: I should have said flawed in a certain way hmmm, damn, I like making schemes but suck at them apparently.

 

[SwiftCrack]

I think that this thread contains a lot of Hearthstone - Heroes of Warcraft players.