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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Snerf

Learned
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
144
I'm holding out hope for the higher end items to be a bit more unique. When hearing back about my backer item, they were able to go with my concept pretty close and mentioned it would likely be possible to impact class spells or mechanics (in this case Cipher spells or amount of focus held/used). I don't know for sure, but it sounds like they may well have the ability for items to have more unique qualities than %s and be different than enchanting options.
 

throwaway

Cipher
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
492
Fuck me this POS thread is impossible to keep up with. For all the shit Sawyer rightly deserves for Roguey the degree that people cherish even the shittiest IE mechanisms is so boundless that I'm for the first time enjoying witnessing the butthurt.

Anyway some posts I thought it'd be worth responding to fuck knows how many hours ago.
This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.
They could try the Bethesda solution of playing a door hinge/metal gates moving sound during the transition.


Eric Fenstermaker is my favourite video game writer and Obsidianitie actually.
That's some high praise in view of the rather limited number of titles he's had shipped. Mind elaborating?

Torment alpha, here we come!
Grognards in my storyfag :rage:
 
Last edited:

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
This is true. I think a lot of the resistance is coming from people's preconceptions being challenged.

Consider that the archetypical Dungeons and Dragons wizard was a essentially the manifestation of supreme nerdism. The DnD wizard is the expression of all of the innate qualities of anti-social nerds with no muscle tone: the wizard gets his power from books and learning and being very smart. This is in direct contrast to the jock/warrior archetype that is so often at odds with the wizard in normal gameplay. The nerds playing DnD in the 70s and 80s played wizards because it made them feel powerful, as if the things they loved would somehow make them relevant. It is no coincidence that the adoption and subsequent popularity of Vancian magic systems is based on its "academic" approach to learning spells. It is a metaphor for the sad nerd's intrinsic desire to have his toil rewarded with actual power. Reading and studying becomes a way to change the properties of the universe. I mean, look at the people making DnD back in the day and it is obvious why caster supremacy exists, why all the most powerful characters -- from Elminster to Kangaxx to any dragon you can name -- are extremely fearsome spellcasters. In the world of the impotent, pocket-protected nerd, the studious would inherit the Earth. Math and reading and science are quite literally fucking magical.

All serious RPG players of the last 30 years have essentially grown up with this assumption circulating in the background. Breaking the relationship between some nebulous idea of "intelligence" and spellcasting ability flies in the face of tradition, which many people find supremely irritating. But it is high time for that archetype to get a good challenge.

 

Snerf

Learned
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
144
God, this brings back memories of the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon for some reason.

That cartoon was the worst thing ever created. Good god it was bad - found it in some bargain bin a few years ago for 3 dollars. It's even worse than you remember.
 

Osvir

Learned
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
193
Osvir
Referring Kotaku now are we? :lol:

That article is just Josh's opinion, which counts for shit since the itemization in P:E beta sucks (cue: shitty cheap uniques)

You are just rephrasing the "wait for the full version/expansion before you judge" argument. While the main problem, boring itemization of uniques, is a very deep flaw in Sawyer's Systems...worse than unique itemization in diablo 3.

Josh's beloved balanced systems are banal as fuck.

Josh's opinion? He talks about how they work, how their employees figure things out and which different stages they go through and what the end-goal is.

No, I am not saying "wait for the full version", I am saying "If you're not going to help out then fuck off". That's what I'd tell you when I worked in the construction business if you stood outside telling me I was doing a bad job when we just recently started building a house. Everything isn't in place is what I am saying, but it's on the way, being transported with trucks. If you're not inclined to play or test until more things are in and balanced, then I say "wait for the next build or two".

Fixing "Technical Issues" takes priority above fixing current "Broadstrike Design".

EDIT: But it's good in one way that you're so negative, then you'll be much happier if you're potentially proven wrong :)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
3,213
Location
Vostroya
God, this brings back memories of the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon for some reason.

That cartoon was the worst thing ever created. Good god it was bad - found it in some bargain bin a few years ago for 3 dollars. It's even worse than you remember.
Oh yeah, shit was totally whack. We briefly had dubbed version here in 90s, and it was kinda bad even then.
 

Semper

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
747
MCA Project: Eternity
casting the (imagined) weak character building aside, i like the combat so far. the stamina/health ratio is a bit off but i dunno how difficult/costly it will be to refill with camping supplies. considering that the whole system was also meant to reduce rest spamming i guess further tweaking is needed. because of the movement speed the combat as a whole also feels a bit too clusterfuckery right now. i already have encountered half a page worth of bugs, but that's what a beta is for.

so far i like the writing, the heavy use of attributes within the dialogues (dunno how much c&c springs from that), coya events, and i absolutely love the grimoir system. btw did anybody successfully learned and transferred a spell from another grimoir to their own?
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
:rage:
Fuck me this POS thread is impossible to keep up with. For all the shit Sawyer rightly deserves for Roguey the degree that people cherish even the shittiest IE mechanisms is so boundless that I'm for the first time enjoying witnessing the butthurt.

Anyway some posts I thought it'd be worth responding to fuck knows how many hours ago.
This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.
They could try the Bethesda solution of playing a door hinge/metal gates moving sound during the transition.


Eric Fenstermaker is my favourite video game writer and Obsidianitie actually.
That's some high praise in view of the rather limited number of titles he's had shipped. Mind elaborating?

Torment alpha, here we come!
Grognards in my storyfag :rage:

Sawyer isn't roguey if thats what you mean.

Anyway, regarding your question mostly because of the things he wrote/designed and because of the few interviews there are with him. Which are all more or less excellent.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,873,142
:rage:
Fuck me this POS thread is impossible to keep up with. For all the shit Sawyer rightly deserves for Roguey the degree that people cherish even the shittiest IE mechanisms is so boundless that I'm for the first time enjoying witnessing the butthurt.

Anyway some posts I thought it'd be worth responding to fuck knows how many hours ago.
This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.
They could try the Bethesda solution of playing a door hinge/metal gates moving sound during the transition.


Eric Fenstermaker is my favourite video game writer and Obsidianitie actually.
That's some high praise in view of the rather limited number of titles he's had shipped. Mind elaborating?

Torment alpha, here we come!
Grognards in my storyfag :rage:

Sawyer isn't roguey if thats what you mean.
How can we be sure?
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
:rage:
Fuck me this POS thread is impossible to keep up with. For all the shit Sawyer rightly deserves for Roguey the degree that people cherish even the shittiest IE mechanisms is so boundless that I'm for the first time enjoying witnessing the butthurt.

Anyway some posts I thought it'd be worth responding to fuck knows how many hours ago.
This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.
They could try the Bethesda solution of playing a door hinge/metal gates moving sound during the transition.


Eric Fenstermaker is my favourite video game writer and Obsidianitie actually.
That's some high praise in view of the rather limited number of titles he's had shipped. Mind elaborating?

Torment alpha, here we come!
Grognards in my storyfag :rage:

Sawyer isn't roguey if thats what you mean.
How can we be sure?

Multiple post dates don't match up with things Sawyer was doing. Of course it could still be that he just wrote the posts on his phone every chance he got, but thats unlikely.

Also (personally) I can't imagine Sawyer doing the Roguey persona. Doesn't seem to fit him.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Oh, please.

I know where Roguey is located. He's not Sawyer, or any other Obsidian employee.
 
Last edited:

Gremius

Augur
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
104
Saw gameplays on Twitch earlier. It's only me who is hating neuter music in that game?
 

Jaesun

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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
I wish we currently could SAVE and LOAD reliably. I'd like to try various tactics with that beetle encounter. Running straight up to them and fighting them (and not using any abilities) doesn't work very well... PARTY WIPE.
 

Decado

Old time handsome face wrecker
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2,674
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San Diego
Codex 2014
This is true. I think a lot of the resistance is coming from people's preconceptions being challenged.

Consider that the archetypical Dungeons and Dragons wizard was a essentially the manifestation of supreme nerdism. The DnD wizard is the expression of all of the innate qualities of anti-social nerds with no muscle tone: the wizard gets his power from books and learning and being very smart. This is in direct contrast to the jock/warrior archetype that is so often at odds with the wizard in normal gameplay. The nerds playing DnD in the 70s and 80s played wizards because it made them feel powerful, as if the things they loved would somehow make them relevant. It is no coincidence that the adoption and subsequent popularity of Vancian magic systems is based on its "academic" approach to learning spells. It is a metaphor for the sad nerd's intrinsic desire to have his toil rewarded with actual power. Reading and studying becomes a way to change the properties of the universe. I mean, look at the people making DnD back in the day and it is obvious why caster supremacy exists, why all the most powerful characters -- from Elminster to Kangaxx to any dragon you can name -- are extremely fearsome spellcasters. In the world of the impotent, pocket-protected nerd, the studious would inherit the Earth. Math and reading and science are quite literally fucking magical.

All serious RPG players of the last 30 years have essentially grown up with this assumption circulating in the background. Breaking the relationship between some nebulous idea of "intelligence" and spellcasting ability flies in the face of tradition, which many people find supremely irritating. But it is high time for that archetype to get a good challenge.

I wouldn't disagree with a lot of that, but I think it does go back even further. I mean, we had tales of Lancelot riding around slaying knights and beasts while Merlin studied and experimented in his tower. It seems quite logical that, if magic requires any sort of study that keeps you in a room full of parchments and arcane ingredients instead of out exercising you're more likely to be be of intelligent/weak persuasion rather than a muscular idiot.

Of course, in this game magic comes from "soul power" so it does change things. If that means you just get spells without any mental exertion and can still be a buffed-up warrior then fine. But it does challenge traditional ideas of the genre that go a bit deeper than just "lol nerds want to feel powerful" imo.

I think a lot of this is true too, though the idea of the wizard as a purely intellectual character is heavily dependant upon the region. Odin, for example, was a sorcerer and a warrior. And Tolkein puts a sword in Gandalf's hands very frequently.

Also I like making fun of nerds. :lol:
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,962
Conan was an amazing thief and a great barbarian. Not to mention a smith. and bullshit
He dual classed and anyone can be a smith. You could do this over 20 years ago. I know, i just blew your fucking mind.
 

Osvir

Learned
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
193
I wish we currently could SAVE and LOAD reliably. I'd like to try various tactics with that beetle encounter. Running straight up to them and fighting them (and not using any abilities) doesn't work very well... PARTY WIPE.

One of the QA testers on Obsidian boards said they had seen more stability in Saving/Loading if you:
1- Save
2- Quit game to desktop
3- Launch game
4- Load
 

MicoSelva

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I have decided to do a little experiment to check the actual impact of stats.

This is my character, Sucky. I deliberately did not spend any stat points on character creation.

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2311-52-10-29_zpsf7b62a66.png


I went to the tavern and hired another character, Tagalong, with equally distributed stats:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-43-41-98_zps018eb17e.png


Apart from stat distibution (gender, name, portrait and voice set), these characters are identical. So what do these additional stats give to Tagalong, and how much of a difference do they make, compared to levelling up?

Sucky at Level 1:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2311-57-57-82_zps9d840371.png


Tagalong at level 1:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-43-58-61_zpsc2e9d0aa.png


Sucky at level 5:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-20-13-49_zpsf2799969.png


SIGNIFICANCE OF INDIVIDUAL STATS

CONSTITUTION

Health and stamina bonus gives +9 both at level 1, while levelling up gave sucky +68 H/S (+17 on average), landing him a total of 119. As these values are percentage-scaled, according to my crude calculations, Tagalong would have around 141 H/S at level 5 (+20 per level up, 3 more than Sucky).

Note that characters in PoE basically 'start' at third level, which means they more or less double in power at level 4, and then at level 10.

So basically you have to put 10 points into CON to get around 3 H/S more per level.
In comparison, in D&D 3.5 you get 3 HP more per level if you up a stat by 6 points, but D&D damage scale is much lower overall.
For example, in D&D a light weapon deals 1-6 damage and a medium weapon deals 1-8. In PoE, a light weapon (hatchet) deals 10-16, while a medium weapon (battle axe) 13-21.

At low levels, higher CON will not even give you one level advantage, around level 5 it gives more than one level advantage, and this will only get higher further on.

Level 1: Sucky 51 Tagalong: ~60
Level 2: Sucky 68 Tagalong: ~80
Level 3: Sucky 85 Tagalong: ~100
Level 4: Sucky 102 Tagalong: ~121
Level 5: Sucky 119 Tagalong: ~141
Level 6: Sucky 136 Tagalong: ~161
Level 7: Sucky 153 Tagalong: ~182
Level 8: Sucky 170 Tagalong: ~202
Level 9: Sucky 187 Tagalong: ~222
Level 10: Sucky 204 Tagalong: ~243

In D&D 3.5 scaling of CON depended on your class. It could as much as double your initial HP (for mages) and since HP per level were partially randomized, it also had a larger impact during character development.

DEXTERITY

Dexterity to Accuracy is a flat bonus, so Tagalong has +9 ACC, because has has 9 more DEX.
Sucky got +3 ACC per level on average, so this is a flat advantage of three levels.
Accuracy significance is not very intuitive to grasp, but basically it operates on 1-100 scale, If I recall correctly, there is a random roll which like this:
1-10 miss (no damage)
11-50 graze (50% damage)
51-90 hit (100% damage)
91-100 hit (150% damage)

Your Accuracy is added to the roll, while enemy's defense (e.g. Deflection) is subtracted from it. In the broadest possible stroke +9 Accuracy is a +9% chance to increase your damage by 50% of your base damage (so +4.5% damage on average)

In comparison, +9 Might gives you a flat +18% damage. So yeah, like Sensuki said, Dexterity kind of sucks overall. Even though increasing it by 3 gives you a whole one level up advantage, that still does not mean a lot.

In D&D 3.5 increasing Dexterity by 2 gave you a +1 to hit (with ranged weapons), which meant at least one whole level up advantage - or more for non-combat classes, but to-hit checks worked very differently there and it is hard to make a direct comparison.

INTELLECT

Increasing INT by 10 gives you a +50% effect duration and AoE. The usability depends on abilities used. I can easily see the effect duration bonus being useful - extending mind control (Puppet Master ability) from 34.5 seconds to 46.5 seconds has a large impact.

AoE range increase is useful in some cases. Many abilities have good enough range with minimal INT, but some will benefit from increased range (like Priest's Restore Stamina spells).

Increasing INT is the only way to increase AoE and range of abilities. They do not scale with character level.

MIGHT

Might increases ALL damage and healing numbers. I can see it as very important for priests and damage dealers and as a possible dump stat for support/crowd control focused characters.

Might damage bonus is more visible in higher-damage weapons and abilities, but you want as much bonus as possible for low damage weapons too, because of DT mechanic.

Base damage 10 vs DT 5 = 5 damage.

With 30% bonus from Might

Base damage 13 vs DT 5 = 8 damage (60% increase).

Weapon damage comparison:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-21-54-27_zps3427ebe1.png


PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-44-08-12_zps2301e538.png


Ability damage comparison:

PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-24-17-46_zps94461bef.png


PillarsOfEternity2014-08-2314-24-22-02_zpsff6bf153.png


As with Intellect, increasing Might is the only way to increase weapon/ability damage (and healing), as these do not scale with level.

PERCEPTION

Hard to say how useful Interrupt is, but I would boost Perception for fast-attacking characters, who land a lot of hits, because it is almost useless for hard-but-slow-hitting strikers.

Interrupt does not scale with level AFAIK, so you only have as much as you get from Perception.

RESOLVE

I have no idea if Concentration is any useful. It seems logical that it is more useful for characters using abilities with longer casting time (higher-level abilities?) but I do not se how these can be identified outside trial-and-error.

Concentration also does not scale with level.

IMPACT OF MAIN ATTRIBUTES ON DEFENSE

This is a separate topic, because various forms of defense are based on all character's stats, grouped into three pairs.

Pillars of Eternity wiki said:
Fortitude (FOR): Represents a character's endurance to "body system attacks" such as poison or disease. It is based on Might and Constitution.

Reflex (REF): Represents a character's ability to dodge area of effect attacks. It is based on Dexterity and Perception.

Will : Represents a character's strength of mind and resistance to mental attack. It is based on Intellect and Resolve.

There is also Deflection (AC equivalent), which is probably the most important of all defensive stats, but attributes do not affect it in any way.

The other three are basically D&D saving throws copied to PoE and rescaled (so they use the same scale as Deflection). They all oppose enemy ACCURACY.

Starting Defense stats are based on your class (only).

Every point you put into an attribute gives you a 1.5 points defence bonus in the defense stat.

Additionally comparison, all Defense stats get a +3 bonus on each level up.

As you can see in the screenshots, Lv. 1 Tagalong has significantly better Defense atributes than both Lv. 1 Sucky and Lv. 5 Sucky.

Sucky gained 4 levels, so his Defense stats were increased by 36 points overall. You get as much Defense from assigning 24 attibute points. Tagalong has 57 attribute points advantage over Sucky, meaning he will only catch up to her LV. 1 Defense around 10th level.

2 attribute points in relevant stats are worth one level up when it comes to Defense. This is a lot of value, which means Defense is the most important secondary stat affected by the main attibutes.

CONCLUSION

Based how often you Defense stats other than Deflection (I will call them saving throws below) are used, there are two conclusions.

1. If saving throws are often used, you can only safely dump one of the paired stats, or your corresponding saving throw will suffer. Basically, do not dump both CON and MIG, DEX and PER or INT and RES.
2. If saving throws are seldom used, I can only see MIG and INT as significant stats (with both being dumpable under certain circumstances), with the rest having very little impact on gameplay. Although with the number of points you get, you can easily max out these two and still have a decent number of points to divide among the rest.

Pump up Might, Intellect and Dexterity, put the remaining points into Constitution and you are all set.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
Pump up Might, Intellect and Dexterity, put the remaining points into Constitution and you are all set.
Presto. Although I came to it just by looking at stats for 5 minutes.

Double this post to Obsi forum maybe?
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
970
Location
Equality Street.
Tried it, game blows currently.

Good news is that it made me all the more appreciate IWD for somehow creating something enjoyable out of what are obviously horeshit game mechanics.
 

Frusciante

Cipher
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
716
Project: Eternity
I think people should realize it's not a matter of balance, therefore the "beta" excuse is completely irrelevant. From the designer's POV the system is working as intended, and that's the problem. It might have worked on paper, but in the pursuit of "balance" and equality they jettisoned all the fun away.

Worth pointing out that this is your opinion which happens to be shared by some other people on this forum. I for example happen to like the combat (combat =/= character progression) as it currently is (when you think away the bugs ofcourse). The character progression could have been a lot more interesting but I still hope more feats will make it slightly more interesting. Other then that it's not something that's going to destroy fun for me like you said.
 

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