Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zorba the Hutt]

He didn't do it then though.

The BGII comments for example are from 2006. Again, Sawyer has always been critical of lots of things and he never tried to hide that fact.

It's not like he didn't make similar comments recently though. There was the mocking "grognards, God Bless 'em" interview a few months ago, as just one example, where he said similar stuff. I found it amusing and it's good to see someone speaking their mind. But it's hardly surprising when some people respond to his mocking of nostalgiafags given the project he's working on.

 

[tuluse]

Why did they go for RTWP, even though even a lot of Infinity Engine fans consider it the weaker part of the series?

I doubt this is true for any meaningful definition of "a lot".

 

[Zeriel]

Why did they go for RTWP, even though even a lot of Infinity Engine fans consider it the weaker part of the series?

I doubt this is true for any meaningful definition of "a lot".

Edited for emphasis: I wasn't trying to say that RTWP in an Infinity Engine clone is bad. It's not. It's great! But if you're cloning the Infinity Engine games, why do you then throw everything else that was characteristic of them out? It's so weird.

Okay, reduce it to "almost zero fans", the point still stands. They choose RTWP because "hey this is an Infinity Engine game now!" but then... why? If you're going to use completely different mechanics under the hood, why even bother? RTWP was a slapdash solution to Bioware having an RTS engine and the D&D license, and trying to shoehorn the two together. Using it where you don't need to can be nothing but an exercise in marketing and nostalgiafaggery, which I'd be totally okay with if they were in any way trying to maintain that theme elsewhere, but it only extends to the general feel of the game. I guess this is the risk you're always going to run when your design goal is to "make something like D&D, but better", in a standard game development cycle.

I don't know what's more sad, that Sawyer thought he could invent a rules system that is D&D but better AND build an entire computer game around it in a standard dev cycle, or that the fans actually believed him.

 

[Infinitron]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

 

[Zeriel]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Oh, okay. I see where you guys are coming from. If, to you, "Infinity Engine game" means just the RTS engine that Bioware created stripped of all its D&D rulesets and mechanics, I completely agree. At the end of the day, Pillars of Eternity will in fact be an RTS-derived RTWP game with dialogue windows.

 

[Duraframe300]

Thinking of it

Wasn't there Sawyer vs Troika back in the day?

There were huge flame wars on the Black Isle forums when Sawyer was proposing changes to SPECIAL for Van Buren.

Hehe

At the very least Sawyer is always good for some entertainment.

 

[tuluse]

Oh, okay. I see where you guys are coming from. If, to you, "Infinity Engine game" means just the RTS engine that Bioware created stripped of all its D&D rulesets and mechanics, I completely agree. At the end of the day, Pillars of Eternity will in fact be an RTS-derived RTWP game with dialogue windows.

And pretty 2d art to look at!

 

[Infinitron]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Oh, okay. I see where you guys are coming from. If, to you, "Infinity Engine game" means just the RTS engine that Bioware created stripped of all its D&D rulesets and mechanics, I completely agree. At the end of the day, Pillars of Eternity will in fact be an RTS-derived RTWP game with dialogue windows.

I meant that it would be a lot like D&D except primarily for those aspects (flexible core classes, percentages, more saving throws)

 

[imweasel]

this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game

Since when does isometric view + prerendered backgrounds + RTwP = Infinity Engine game?

Just wondering because that is really all that PoE has in common with any of them.

 

[Zeriel]

Oh, okay. I see where you guys are coming from. If, to you, "Infinity Engine game" means just the RTS engine that Bioware created stripped of all its D&D rulesets and mechanics, I completely agree. At the end of the day, Pillars of Eternity will in fact be an RTS-derived RTWP game with dialogue windows.

And pretty 2d art to look at!

This is what tears me up about the game. It looks so good, but everything else about it seems calculated in exactly the precise way to make me run away screaming.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I meant that it would be a lot like D&D except primarily for those aspects (flexible core classes, percentages, more saving throws)

A carbon copy of BG really, apart from xp system, combat system, attribute system, classes, magic system and magic item style.

 

[tuluse]

This is what tears me up about the game. It looks so good, but everything else about it seems calculated in exactly the precise way to make me run away screaming.

Everything else?

I find the text adventure parts to be a really cool addition.

I also think you are exaggerating how different combat feels. Priest, wizards, and fighters play p similar to how they did in IE games. Wizards just use a rod instead of slings or darts, and fighters can knock enemies over. That is seriously the main differences I've noted with those classes.

The other classes are more different, but I'm not sure why this is a problem. Cyphers and monks specifically are really cool.

 

[Infinitron]

I meant that it would be a lot like D&D except primarily for those aspects (flexible core classes, percentages, more saving throws)

A carbon copy of BG really, apart from xp system, combat system, attribute system, classes, magic system and magic item style.

XP system: I consider this a minor issue and mostly a "feels" thing. You're going to level up every X hours anyway.

"Combat System": Not sure what you mean by this. Both are RTwP.

Attribute System: Yep. This is what enables the flexible core classes.

Classes: They're all based on D&D classes, but as I said, more flexible.

Magic System: Very similar to D&D, but with more saving throws to avoid hard counters, and with buffs described in terms of percentages.

Magic Item Style: See above, basically.

 

[MicoSelva]

If someone is interested, I will now be streaming Sucky's adventures for around an hour HERE (without commentary).

Thanks for watching if you were there. Unfortunately chat never started working for me, so I have no idea who joined.
Sorry for the crappy quality, but my internet connection (1.5 Mb) cannot handle anything better. I hope the sound was ok, because it never worked properly when I tried to stream Hearhtstone.

Link to the highlight.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I wouldn't disagree with a lot of that, but I think it does go back even further. I mean, we had tales of Lancelot riding around slaying knights and beasts while Merlin studied and experimented in his tower. It seems quite logical that, if magic requires any sort of study that keeps you in a room full of parchments and arcane ingredients instead of out exercising you're more likely to be be of intelligent/weak persuasion rather than a muscular idiot.

Of course, in this game magic comes from "soul power" so it does change things. If that means you just get spells without any mental exertion and can still be a buffed-up warrior then fine. But it does challenge traditional ideas of the genre that go a bit deeper than just "lol nerds want to feel powerful" imo.

I am quite sure that Babylonian mages also were shown spending much of their time studying. Not to mention Pythagoras and his crazy sect.

 

[mastroego]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

It is if you put the various little clues together.
Soulless "unique" items, spreadsheet-logic spells (only usable in combat), lack of hard-counters which would be "scary for balance", lack of peculiar classes...
You don't see it?
They just don't have it in them.
Sure, bitch long enough and they might add a couple of special items, but the fact remains: they just don't have it in them, and the game will reflect that - one way or another - when it finally comes out.
They won't be able to conceal the flatness and the blandness.

Also, it looks a bit like a subtle scam when you obviously bank on the love for an old game, luring people in with a similar look and feel of your promised product, when in fact you hate the original and want to do something basically different at its core.
I didn't back this project personally but I might have.
Yeah, yeah, I know, intentions were stated, some-when, somewhere.
But as this thread testifies, people were still expecting a "spiritual successor" to BG2 (not surprisingly!) and now they're starting to realize that they're not going to get it.
If this Sawyer guy made this game without the obvious nod to BG2, this "butthurt thread" wouldn't exist (then again, without the nod to BG2 the Kickstarter would have failed...)

 

[felipepepe]

A carbon copy of BG really, apart from xp system, combat system, attribute system, classes, magic system and magic item style.

XP system: I consider this a minor issue and mostly a "feels" thing. You're going to level up every X hours anyway.

"Combat System": Not sure what you mean by this. Both are RTwP.

Attribute System: Yep. This is what enables the flexible core classes.

Classes: They're all based on D&D classes, but as I said, more flexible.

Magic System: Very similar to D&D, but with more saving throws to avoid hard counters, and with buffs described in terms of percentages.

Magic Item Style: See above, basically.

Infinitron's next performance will be showing us how GURPS is just like D&D.

I fully expect arguments like "yeah, you point-buy stats instead of roling them, but they are basically the same", or "Advantages are exactly like traits, just for larpers" and"both combats are turn-based, so they are exactly the same".

It will end with "It's really the same, people that say they prefer one over another are just picky."

 

[Jaesun]

But at this thread testifies, people were still expecting a "spiritual successor" to BG2 (not surprisingly!) and now they're starting to realize that they're not going to get it.

How is Pillars of Eternity not like a spiritual successor to BG2?

 

[Semper]

They won't be able to conceal the flatness and the blandness.

they should ask larian.

 

[Zeriel]

They won't be able to conceal the flatness and the blandness.

they should ask larian.

Ironically, D:OS is closer to D&D than PoE is.

 

[Infinitron]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

It is if you put the various little clues together.
Soulless "unique" items, spreadsheet-logic spells (only usable in combat), lack of hard-counters which would be "scary for balance", lack of peculiar classes...
You don't see it?
They just don't have it in them.
Sure, bitch long enough and they might add a couple of special items, but the fact remains: they just don't have it in them, and the game will reflect that - one way or another - when it finally comes out.
They won't be able to conceal the flatness and the blandness.

Also, it looks a bit like a subtle scam when you obviously bank on the love for an old game, luring people in with a similar look and feel of your promised product, when in fact you hate the original and want to do something basically different at its core.
I didn't back this project personally but I might have.
Yeah, yeah, I know, intentions were stated, some-when, somewhere.
But as this thread testifies, people were still expecting a "spiritual successor" to BG2 (not surprisingly!) and now they're starting to realize that they're not going to get it.
If this Sawyer guy made this game without the obvious nod to BG2, this "butthurt thread" wouldn't exist (then again, without the nod to BG2 the Kickstarter would have failed...)

Ah, the SOUL factor. How ironic.

lack of peculiar classes...

I don't really intend to respond seriously to this post, but an aside, it's interesting to me that you only mention BG2 and not those four other games.

 

[Zeriel]

The only IE game that didn't slavishly use D&D rules (well "slavishly" translated as "butchered into Bioware's weird RTWP rendition of") was Planescape: Torment. How do they differ very much from a rules perspective, Infinitron?

BG2 is remembered over the others because it had the biggest variety in levels and hence the biggest amount of implemented abilities. Oh my god, it's almost as if against all odds people actually liked the game with the most complexity.

 

[Infinitron]

A carbon copy of BG really, apart from xp system, combat system, attribute system, classes, magic system and magic item style.

XP system: I consider this a minor issue and mostly a "feels" thing. You're going to level up every X hours anyway.

"Combat System": Not sure what you mean by this. Both are RTwP.

Attribute System: Yep. This is what enables the flexible core classes.

Classes: They're all based on D&D classes, but as I said, more flexible.

Magic System: Very similar to D&D, but with more saving throws to avoid hard counters, and with buffs described in terms of percentages.

Magic Item Style: See above, basically.

Infinitron's next performance will be showing us how GURPS is just like D&D.

I fully expect arguments like "yeah, you point-buy stats instead of roling them, but they are basically the same", or "Advantages are exactly like traits, just for larpers" and"both combats are turn-based, so they are exactly the same".

It will end with "It's really the same, people that say they prefer one over another are just picky."

I'm not saying they're the same. I'm saying it's like the Infinity Engine games' D&D implementation, but with the following key differences:

1) More flexible core classes enabled by a more universal attribute system akin to that seen in classless RPGs.

2) Buffs and effects typically calculated and displayed as percentages rather than absolute values to enable consistency across the board. Not actually mechanically important from the player's perspective, but an important visual "feels" issue to many, apparently.

3) A greater use of the saving throw system due to avoidance of "hard counters" - eg, buffs and items that increase resistances rather than grant outright immunity.

If you're really picky, and I really don't want to discuss this here any further, then you can add:

4) Removal of experience points rewards for killing enemies to discourage unfun "trash mob genocide" completionism.

I do not consider these key differences to be enough to consider Pillars of Eternity a game that has had "D&D stripped out of it". To say that Divinity: Original Sin (the game with magic spamming wizards with cooldowns) is more similar to the Infinity Engine games than this game is, as Zeriel is saying, is of course absurd.

You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion. You can try to ask for your money back.

 

[felipepepe]

Oh my god, it's almost as if against all odds people actually liked the game with the most complexity.

We've been over that, you're lying. No one liked those games, no one still plays then, it's all nostalgia.

Remenber when you tried an odd class configuration, just for fun? YOU DIDN'T HAVE FUN. No one has ever had fun with unbalanced builds. Same thing about doing a solo run, no one does that. It's not fun to intentionnaly gimp yourself for a challenge. You only remenber having fun because nostalgia and tint-rosed glasses. Also, because you suck.

Abandon all that and join the balance. It still won't be fun, but it will look good on paper.

 

[mastroego]

BG2 was BY FAR the most iconic and beloved of the whole bunch.
Just look at how big the mod community was and still is.
(I used to know that community well, I've been a modder of sorts myself).