Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Frusciante]

Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses almost meaningless Yes it's mostly flavor as it should be. There are some people who like the ROLEPLAYING aspect of rpg's and are not just there for the mechnics

Mechanics are how roleplaying is expressed in an video game.

Yes but there is also things like flavor text, biographies, reactivity in conversations (which we know nothing about so far) etc

Yeah and I can write those in Notepad.exe

Ok so right now race and culture give attribute bonusses. What would be your proposal?

If you make the mechanical bonus too big it becomes more about metagaming and character building then a roleplaying/flavor choice.

Also an attribute bonus is/should be fine. The problem here is that the attributes in general do not have enough impact. And the result of that is that the race and culture bonus is not having enough impact. So the problem is in the attrbute system.

Edit:

Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses almost meaningless Yes it's mostly flavor as it should be. There are some people who like the ROLEPLAYING aspect of rpg's and are not just there for the mechnics

??? I can understand the arguments of those who like Sawyer's changes, even if I wouldn't have thought an "IE successor with IWD combat" is the best place for them. Fine, we'll never all agree and this thread will keep going in circles.

But for someone in favour of Sawyer's changes to pull out the 'roleplaying not mechanics" card? Really? Isn't that what some of the BG2 devotees on the Obs forums have been going on about? How the BG attributes better described their character for roleplaying purposes even if they had flaws mechanically? Very surprised to see this argument from you, I would have thought that 'flavour and roleplaying' over mechanics is the last thing Sawyer stood for.

I'm not sawyer and I'm not the BG2 crowd at the obsidian forums. Just saying there's nothing wrong with attribute bonusses from culture/race. The attribute system is the underlying problem not the race/culture bonus.

 

[Infinitron]

Racial bonuses should definitely have some impact. Cultural is more optional; I put that in the same category as choosing a deity in NWN.

The obvious question to ask Sawyer is about the itemization.

The problem with that is that it's harder to explain in a sentence or two, because IMO a lot of people's dislike of the itemization is tied up into issues like an aesthetic dislike for percentages or conversely, a fundamental disagreement with the no hard counters philosophy.

And a tweet about "items are too boring" just isn't too helpful.

But if Frusciante wants to try that, feel free.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Thread on the Obsidian forums about itemisation, worth a read:
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67861-itemization-feels-bland/
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67861-itemization-feels-bland/

 

[Mangoose]

Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses almost meaningless Yes it's mostly flavor as it should be. There are some people who like the ROLEPLAYING aspect of rpg's and are not just there for the mechnics

Mechanics are how roleplaying is expressed in an video game.

Yes but there is also things like flavor text, biographies, reactivity in conversations (which we know nothing about so far) etc

Yeah and I can write those in Notepad.exe

Ok so right now race and culture give attribute bonusses. What would be your proposal?

If you make the mechanical bonus too big it becomes more about metagaming and character building then a roleplaying/flavor choice.

Yes, roleplaying is gaming and character building. LARPing is flavor choice.

My proposal is that they would not be "meaningless" as you said yourself.

 

[bonescraper]

Start BG1 with a fighter that has 3 in STR, DEX and CON, tell me how it goes (tip: run from the wolves).

Well for starters, you can't, because classes have mandatory minimums (even moreso when dual and multi-classing).

Then use a trainer.

 

[Frusciante]

Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses almost meaningless Yes it's mostly flavor as it should be. There are some people who like the ROLEPLAYING aspect of rpg's and are not just there for the mechnics

Mechanics are how roleplaying is expressed in an video game.

Yes but there is also things like flavor text, biographies, reactivity in conversations (which we know nothing about so far) etc

Yeah and I can write those in Notepad.exe

Ok so right now race and culture give attribute bonusses. What would be your proposal?

If you make the mechanical bonus too big it becomes more about metagaming and character building then a roleplaying/flavor choice.

Yes, roleplaying is gaming and character building. LARPing is flavor choice.

My proposal is that they would not be "meaningless" as you said yourself.

Ok I'd like that too. But don't you agree that the problem then is with the attribute system and not with the culture/race bonus?

Edit: And I see that you removed the final sentence in my quote. Which was precisely the point of my post. For attribute bonus to be meaningful the attribute system should be meaningful. Adjusting the attribute system so that it has a larger impact will automatically make the racial/cultural bonus more meaninful.

 

[mastroego]

I like this guy.

• First, the problem being discussed here by some of us is not a specific issue like the attribute system, so much as the fact that various little things are giving away an UNINSPIRED and boring approach to the gaming mechanics and the nature of the content.
• Similarly, the issue is not the "deviation from D&D", but the simple fact that the alternative looks like a lifeless spreadsheet-fest.
• That said, such criticism would still have merit, since he was the one luring people to fund his project by making use of people's love for BG2: now he scorns those who supposedly were expecting a product with similar mechanics?

 

[coffeetable]

d&d is garbage shit for idiots

if you've got a choice as to whether to make a D&D game or to come up with your own system, your choice is between something that's guaranteed to be awful and something that will almost certainly be awful

complex, ill-defined problems are hard to construct satisfactory solutions for, news at 11. but ill take a new attempt at solving one over a rehash of an old failed attempt any day

the IE games were good despite being D&D games, not because they were D&D games. their combat and their character progression were garbage. they were good because of their scope and their storytelling.

 

[Mangoose]

Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses almost meaningless Yes it's mostly flavor as it should be. There are some people who like the ROLEPLAYING aspect of rpg's and are not just there for the mechnics

Mechanics are how roleplaying is expressed in an video game.

Yes but there is also things like flavor text, biographies, reactivity in conversations (which we know nothing about so far) etc

Yeah and I can write those in Notepad.exe

Ok so right now race and culture give attribute bonusses. What would be your proposal?

If you make the mechanical bonus too big it becomes more about metagaming and character building then a roleplaying/flavor choice.

Yes, roleplaying is gaming and character building. LARPing is flavor choice.

My proposal is that they would not be "meaningless" as you said yourself.

Ok I'd like that too. But don't you agree that the problem then is with the attribute system and not with the culture/race bonus?

I refrain from making judgment because I have yet to play the beta (busy with DOS still). But I dislike the idea that roleplaying = flavor, in games at least. If it's a roleplaying game, then the whole intent of the game is that roleplaying is abstracted and represented by the game's mechanics. Period. Otherwise it's not a roleplaying game, and it's just an action game/RTS/whatever game with flavor text.

 

[J_C]

Shallow attributes, unreadable combat thanks to character modell blending, bugs, I really hope Obsidian pushes the release date to Spring 2015 and fix those issues.

 

[Frusciante]

I like this guy.

• First, the problem being discussed here by some of us is not a specific issue like the attribute system, so much as the fact that various little things are giving away an UNINSPIRED and boring approach to the gaming mechanics and the nature of the content.
• Similarly, the issue is not the "deviation from D&D", but the simple fact that the alternative looks like a lifeless spreadsheet-fest.
• That said, such criticism would still have merit, since he was the one luring people to fund his project by making use of people's love for BG2: now he scorns those who supposedly were expecting a product with similar mechanics?

Uninspired and spreadsheet fest is a hyperbole for me. I agree that character progression, class system and attributes could be more interesting as it is now in the beta. But for me it does seem interesting enough especially when taking into account that there are strengths and weaknesses to each design approach. More balance automatically means less wacky/crazy stuff.

About luring people in and now suddenly making something different: I simply do not agree. For 99% of the people (and I have heard this all around me from people who are not so super hardcore into mechanics as some opf the people here) PoE will play and feel exactly like a BG3.

 

[Frusciante]

Shallow attributes, unreadable combat thanks to character modell blending, bugs, I really hope Obsidian pushes the release date to Spring 2015 and fix those issues.

Agreed that these are all issues that need to be fixed. No clue how long that will take though. Character model blendig might be as simple as tweaking some of the lighting effects. Attributes tweaking also doesnt seem that time consuming.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

The problem with that is that it's harder to explain in a sentence or two, because IMO a lot of people's dislike of the itemization is tied up into issues like an aesthetic dislike for percentages or conversely, a fundamental disagreement with the no hard counters philosophy.

And a tweet about "items are too boring" just isn't too helpful.

But if Frusciante wants to try that, feel free.

Even with no hard counters you can still design some unique items that stand out compare to what bonuses you can apply with crafting. One way is items giving special abilities/spells that are class specific (and otherwise not available to class that is using that item) such as BG2 short sword that gives you mirror image per day ability, gargoyle boots (stoneskin per day) or even from other games like in Diablo 2 where Enigma runeword gives you ability to teleport.

 

[Shadenuat]

There are items like that in game. Belt that allows casting Barkskin for example.

 

[Infinitron]

The problem with that is that it's harder to explain in a sentence or two, because IMO a lot of people's dislike of the itemization is tied up into issues like an aesthetic dislike for percentages or conversely, a fundamental disagreement with the no hard counters philosophy.

And a tweet about "items are too boring" just isn't too helpful.

But if Frusciante wants to try that, feel free.

Even with no hard counters you can still design some unique items that stand out compare to what bonuses you can apply with crafting. One way is items giving special abilities/spells that are class specific (and otherwise not available to class that is using that item) such as BG2 short sword that gives you mirror image per day ability, gargoyle boots (stoneskin per day) or even from other games like in Diablo 2 where Enigma runeword gives you ability to teleport.

Sure.

BTW, interesting that you bring up the Mirror Image spell. Now there's a spell that is quite cool and iconic, and at the same time quite Sawyeriffic. It provides excellent protection for a mage, while still allowing mundane attacks to gradually wear it down, so not a hard counter.

 

[Duraframe300]

Sawyer says

The disposition reputation isn't 1:1 with your inputs. There are different internal thresholds for each rank of a disposition based on the frequency with which is appears in the game. E.g. Cruel options do not come up often, so you have to make a relatively small number of them before your Cruel rep "levels up". Diplomatic and Benevolent options have high frequency so you have to select more of them before those reps gain ranks.

BG1 town quests were pretty slim. BG2 town quests were very dense. I think we're somewhere in the middle, and there are a few quests that have been disabled in the areas for story/area overlap reasons.

 

[Shadenuat]

BTW, interesting that you bring up the Mirror Image spell. Now there's a spell that is quite cool and iconic, and at the same time quite Sawyeriffic. It provides excellent protection for a mage, while still allowing mundane attacks to gradually wear it down, so not a hard counter.

Yup. Gives +20 Deflection in PoE that lowers with each hit





FFS
arcane veil gives +25 for 15 secs

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sure.

BTW, interesting that you bring up the Mirror Image spell. Now there's a spell that is quite cool and iconic, and at the same time quite Sawyeriffic. It provides excellent protection for a mage, while still allowing mundane attacks to gradually wear it down, so not a hard counter.

Yeah, even more so in BG2 probably, as you have a small chance to actually hit the real enemy instead of illusion which I think isn't possible in first BG (you have to take them all the illusions down before you can hurt him so he's invincible for a period).

 

[Frusciante]

Racial bonuses should definitely have some impact. Cultural is more optional; I put that in the same category as choosing a deity in NWN.

The obvious question to ask Sawyer is about the itemization.

The problem with that is that it's harder to explain in a sentence or two, because IMO a lot of people's dislike of the itemization is tied up into issues like an aesthetic dislike for percentages or conversely, a fundamental disagreement with the no hard counters philosophy.

And a tweet about "items are too boring" just isn't too helpful.

But if Frusciante wants to try that, feel free.

I asked him about the items (nicely). But he isnt responding.

 

[Zed]

another thing bg2 does better
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67851-map-density-and-encounterspoints-of-interest/

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

"eah Obsidian totally screwed us over by deviating from the DnD systems.

Oh.... wait.... they said they would create there own (different) system on day one of the kickstarter pitch.

It's funny how people now start complaining about things we have known for nearly two years.

We have known about all the design goals (flexible classes, all weapon/armor types are useful in some way, no trash options etc) since the start.
We have known about the seperation between combat abilities and non-combat skills from the start.
We have known about the attribute system for a looooong time."

We were also told to STFU and not judge until we tried it out. Now, we're being told not to judge it until the game 'officially' comes out. Then, we'll be told not to judge it until we played it 7 times. THEN will be told not to judge it untilwe try the expansion. Then we'll be told if we hated iso much why did we play the game so fukkin' much. LMFAO

and you based that on the 5 unique items one can find in the beta? a little pathetic, ain't it?

You are TOTALLY Correct. I should wait till the expansion to judge.

even if there are no unique item modifiers and everything can be recreated with echantments, it still costs materials and money. you know what else costs money? almost everything. right now we don't know how easy it will be to scrape together piles of gold/copper/viallieuxian dollars/whatever fuckin currency they use. point is, if i am constently broke i am happy about unique equipment with different mundane modifiers, because else i would have none.

ohh uniques should be unique in a supposedly spiritual IE successor is such an unreasonable demand.

 

[hoverdog]

20 pages to read

Be brave, it's full of schadenfreude and balance.

sawyermancers vs 2edgy KKKredits gatherers - which is better and why?!?!?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I've seen some people cross-posting criticism from this thread to Obsidian Forum, since as the twitter exchange posted here Josh doesn't seem to know anything that has been going on outside of his beloved SA perhaps it would be a better idea to just mail him all the criticism.

 

[Sensuki]

DU could make it so that every reply sends the text to his email, or badler's email

 

[felipepepe]

It's funny how people now start complaining about things we have known for nearly two years.

You're joking. The Pillars of Eternity thread is probably the longest thread in the entire codex, with over 1300 PAGES. Also, not everything was known, such as the itemization. Seems obvious that having the game in your hands makes it easier to understand the whole concept and analyse it.

Also, people crying "wait for the alpha-beta-release-patch-expanion-sequel before judging."

Ok Felipepepe you don't like the system, that's too bad for you. Unfortunately Obsidian isnt making this game just for you. My prediction is that a lot of people (most actualy) will still enjoy the game and will probably even like a lot of the mechanics that you hate.

In other words, no this isnt DnD and it isnt a copy of BG2 (thank god, that would be a waste of time). But it's still in its core an IE like experience and it has a lot of things going for it. But if you're blinded by your very narrow view on whats good and not good design, you will never see it.

Maybe what you liked about IE isn't what others liked, and that's why so many people here are dissapointed. And you and Sawyer are
blinded by your very narrow view on whats good and not good design. Never paused to consider it rolls both way, did you?

The game would be very different if it was "Sawyer's Personal Dream." It wouldn't have attributes, probably wouldn't have classes and a bunch of other stuff.

And it would be better for this. As it stands, PoE ins't a IE-clone for nostalgic fans, neither Sawyer's dream RPG. It's balanced between those, for no reason other than Sawyer's hatred for D&D.