Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[jagged-jimmy]

Let's not forget, that most people will play it for story and party "relationships" - i.e. people who liked BGs. So maybe the blandness of char system won't hurt the game much, if the story is good enough.

 

[Infinitron]

stats that have such a miniscule effect

In case that wasn't obvious from my previous post, this is an issue that I assume will be addressed "after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed".

I don't see anything Sawyery about having a stat system that doesn't do enough. He would prefer to just rip it out if that were the case.

 

[Rake]

Let's not forget, that most people will play it for story and party "relationships" - i.e. people who liked BGs. So maybe the blandness of char system won't hurt the game much, if the story is good enough.

True dat. But i was hoping for the first time Obsidian to make a game that is also fun to play instead of gnashing my teeth and bypassing as much of the actual gameplay as possible.
Or in New Vegas and Alpha Protocol cases, abandoning the games and watch LP's instead.
IE games had good gameplay on top of good content.

 

[Sensuki]

That Once more guy is either an anonymous Obsidian staff, or a Something Awful poster. Most likely the latter I suppose.

Likely Andhaira alt, actually

Fair enough. Andhaira's even posting on the Obs forums about the game ;o

Let's not forget, that most people will play it for story and party "relationships" - i.e. people who liked BGs. So maybe the blandness of char system won't hurt the game much, if the story is good enough.

On the majority of my replays of the IE games I skip through all the dialogue. I actually play them for the gameplay.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I thought Andhaira had created that 'Pillar of Eternity' alt for this thread, hard to keep up.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Let's not forget, that most people will play it for story and party "relationships" - i.e. people who liked BGs. So maybe the blandness of char system won't hurt the game much, if the story is good enough.

The game's gonna be great due to being a beautiful looking 2d isometric party based tactical RPG, Darklands/King of Dragon pass like text-based encounters, Obsidian writing (which is miles ahead of Bioware, even pre-decline Bioware), C&C (which you always can expect to be featured to some degree in an Obsidian game) etc.

Sawyer's CC system and combat mechanices are gonna detract from that greatness or add to it (depending on how much the game changes till the final version and/or how much you agree with Sawyer's design philosophy), but I sincerely doubt they're gonna ruin the game, atleast for most Codexers.

 

[Infinitron]

I thought Andhaira had created that 'Pillar of Eternity' alt for this thread, hard to keep up.

Yeah, and we killed that one, so "Once more unto the Codex". Get it?

 

[Sensuki]

p. persistence

 

[ZagorTeNej]

In case that wasn't obvious from my previous post, this is an issue that I assume will be addressed "after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed".

I don't see anything Sawyery about having a stat system that doesn't do enough. He would prefer to just rip it out if that were the case.

I was exaggerating to prove a point. I love having attributes in RPG (I'm a grognard larper or whatever) so obviously I hope Sawyer "fixes" them instead of ripping them out but I'd still prefer the latter to having an attribute system that is just for show.

 

[imweasel]

We were also told to STFU and not judge until we tried it out. Now, we're being told not to judge it until the game 'officially' comes out. Then, we'll be told not to judge it until we played it 7 times. THEN will be told not to judge it untilwe try the expansion. Then we'll be told if we hated iso much why did we play the game so fukkin' much. LMFAO

 

[Grunker]

The game would be very different if it was "Sawyer's Personal Dream." It wouldn't have attributes, probably wouldn't have classes and a bunch of other stuff.

 

[Ulminati]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

More flexible classes? Can you even multiclass in this thing? Having a little of both worlds was one of my favourite things to do in the IE games.

 

[Infinitron]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

More flexible classes? Can you even multiclass in this thing? Having a little of both worlds was one of my favourite things to do in the IE games.

No, but now you don't need to. Cuz they're flexible.

 

[Ulminati]

Right. Just pump might on my wizard and give him a sword. He's now the barbarian. Everything is equally viable so everything is shit.

 

[Jaedar]

At the end of the day (year), after all feedback is taken in and all bugs are fixed, this game is basically going to be an Infinity Engine game with more flexible classes, percentages in the UI instead of absolute values, and more spells and special abilities that can be defended against with saving throws.

It really doesn't seem like that big a deal.

More flexible classes? Can you even multiclass in this thing? Having a little of both worlds was one of my favourite things to do in the IE games.

No, but now you don't need to. Cuz they're flexible.

Not in the beta, or at least not anywhere close to low levels.

Unless you mean flexible as in "jack of all trades", because now that I think about it, a wizard has the same inherent capacity to do melee/ranged combat as all the other classes(EDIT: actually that's wrong, they have less accuracy and health), just no abilities related to it.

 

[Infinitron]

Right. Just pump might on my wizard and give him a sword. He's now the barbarian. Everything is equally viable so everything is shit.

He won't have all the Barbarian's unique active abilities and passive bonuses, though. I guess there will be talents that let you mitigate that to some extent, but not enough to make him as good a "barbarian" as an actual Barbarian.

Besides, you could do this in any classless RPG anyway

Not in the beta, or at least not anywhere close to low levels.

Unless you mean flexible as in "jack of all trades", because now that I think about it, a wizard has the same inherent capacity to do melee/ranged combat as all the other classes, just no abilities related to it.

Yeah, that. It's not really as strong as multi-classing, I was exaggerating. It's more like taking default feats of another class in 3E.

 

[Wizfall]

Can't believe some people miss the loss of the awful BG2 IE character system.
The worst system ever where you only need to max 2 stat at best, absolutely 0 customization possible, every character of the same class being strictly identical.
His only redeeming aspect was the multi-classing possibilities, otherwise it was totally rubbish.
As bad as PoE system seems to be it is better, at least now you can have slight difference between characters of the same class.

 

[FeelTheRads]

at least now you can have slight difference between characters of the same class.

With every class being nearly identical. Progress!

 

[J_C]

The worst system ever where you only need to max 2 stat at best, absolutely 0 customization possible, every character of the same class being strictly identical.
.

Having to only upgrade 2 stats, or managing 6 stats that doesn't make a difference in the character build at all. Discuss which is better and why?

 

[Frusciante]

Right. Just pump might on my wizard and give him a sword. He's now the barbarian. Everything is equally viable so everything is shit.

Yes you're absolutely right. I just tested this in the Beta and my might wizard is exactly like the barbarian.

Only with much lower health, spells, different defenses and missing all the barbarian abilities.

at least now you can have slight difference between characters of the same class.

With every class being nearly identical. Progress!

Have you played the beta? Where do you gather that classes are nearly identical? The problem is that attributes don't have enough impact and there is not enough choice of feats etc. But there is at least as much variation between classes as in DnD.

There are very big differences between caster classes such as chanter, wizard and priest. And a melee class like the monk plays completely different then a fighter or barbarian.

 

[Athelas]

The lack of impact of stats should definitely be criticized (and it's something I'm disappointed with myself), but doing it on the basis of the IE games is bizarre. Here's the class progression chart for the Baldur's Gate - none of the stats are even referenced in it: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

 

[Shadenuat]

Right. Just pump might on my wizard and give him a sword. He's now the barbarian. Everything is equally viable so everything is shit.

Wizard is fine, because their general class mechanic makes them very flexible. And wizard in front lines in armor does indeed work, perhaps even too well, better than kensai/mage - stack yourself with buffs, best fighter has 40 accuracy, wizard 90, and front line level 1 spells like burning hands are 40% more powerful than level 3 Fireball.
No prebuffing sucks for these sort of characters though. You just stand there and cast buffs, do something in combat later.
It's like designer made a game about his own insecurities he gathered during his player years.

It's other classes that suck. Rogue, for example, who is just a different flavour of DPS (who would have known that if you take every utility skill away from utility class he becomes banalshitboring). Ranger who is "archer". Barb&Fighter who also could be more distinct from one another. Paly who should get some spells at least.

You can say "well in PoE I can give any armor and weapon to any class that instantly makes them more distinct". Well it actually doesn't work the way you'd think that would work. You could give a sling to everyone in IE but it did not turn every class into a ranged class instantly. Same with stuff like weapons&armor. I don't see much difference between IE wizard hitting something with staff or PoE one hitting something with pollaxe, because cool mechanics ain't there. Say in Original Sin you give a Wizard 1 Man at Arms point you can now rush into enemy with bullrush and other things.

It doesn't feel to me that in PoE playing, say, a spellsword has same rewards as playing thief/mage in IE games actually.



Since I don't want to copyright even when I'm not doing my job here's my post from Obsi:

Spoiler

Too many classes seem to be stuck inside one archetype without any options. Too many things, like ranged options, healing or summons seem to belong to only one particular class.

That makes some classes less interesting than even BG2 kits, which is incredible concidering the point of the new system was to support multiple roles for classes. Take Ranger, for example. In BG2 he could be a summoner, a stealthy melee attacker or a master-archer. Yet in PoE he is just a master-archer with a summon that is forced upon you. Through BG series we've seen a berserkering melee ranger with many hitpoints but so-so defence, a dexterous archer and a mage-hunting lightly armored one who had access to powerful spell turning spells and buffs.

In PoE first thing you get is a slowing arrow ability... so underwhelming. Let me choose what ability I take myself.

Getting rekked because someone focused your wolf is also too big of a penalty, even if animal does some decent damage in melee.

Some classes have innate customization mechanics in them, like Wizard. There is nothing more intersting that taking enemy's grimoire from his cold body and start mixing his and your own spells around. But that's just Wizard.

The Druid is also dissapointing. Josh was talking about how he doesn't like that you instantly lose game while not taking Cleric in party... yet the closest class that often was used instead of cleric in IE has it's slots filled with DPS spells until level 3. Thus, in my experience, making Cleric almost invaluable for any party because of stacks and stacks of stamina regeneration spells.

Other classes also have some of these issues. Fighters are stuck with hold-the-line abilities, many of which belong to a character screen than combat menu (why add stamina regeneration as an icon? hope it's just stock stuff). You can use them for something else, but there is no customization even of 3d edition D&D level, which was shallow, but it was something. At least Fighters there could excel at any weapon, making them very general purpose combatants.

Barbarians seem a bit better, but share combat role with rogues now. It is possible that Barb in full plate, with activated Rage for 1.3 more speed, and his instant +200+ stamina "potion gulp" is a better tank with good damage than a Fighter, actually. Because of wacky nature of interrupts, stamina, combat speed and AI, his immunity to engagement is only useful rarely.

Rogue is just a different flavour of DPS. It's a lot harder to get his 2-seconds damage buff than amazing, tactical and sharp D&D backstab. No more out of combat skills either. No placing traps. No finding traps. No weapon poisoning. No ability to see through illusions. No stealing items.
Just spike damage. Where are the different and flavour rich archetypes? Again, I'd rather play Bounty Hunter or Assasin from BG2 than this.

For Paladin, I have few things to say except that, again, even BG2 customization offered more interesting archetypes to play. I was also hoping for him to learn at least a small set of cleric spells to allow more flexible party composition.

The Monk, for now, I don't really understand, but from what I've seen managing such a character in real time takes more from player than offering enough rewards.

The Spellcasters, I think, are where most interesting mechanics and important abilities went. As I said, Wizard is flexible enough to survive without things like specialist transmuters/necromancers and so on. The lack of utility spells and summoning spells hurts though. Can we at least get Oracle to open some parts of the map? Players not knowing what are they going into was a discussed problem during development, yet there are no appropriate utility spells. Although with overpowered super-radar stealth...

Priest seems like most balanced caster for now. His spells are all friendly and affect many characters, so instead of, like in IE, thinking on what to do with a Wizard in combat, I mostly was thinking about managing my Cleric. Combination of heals, single-target DPS, mass heals, mass debuffs, saving-spells works maybe even too well.

Wizard has many spells that are harder to manage (some designer really likes ray-spells it seems, that hurt things between wizard and his target). But that's okay I guess.

As a fan of Druids, as I said, I was dissapointed. They are just too focused on various cone damage spells, aoe spells, single target spells, dots and that, instead of presenting a choice from, maybe lacking compared to specialized casters, but more balanced list of spells. Some of druid spells are also a bit too powerful. Who's idea was to make Charm Animal a level 1 AoE? Poor beetles and lions...

Ciphers I would only like if they would get whole Psionic Handbook dumped into them, including utility spells. The Focus isn't bad in itself but you end up spamming just a bunch of best overpowered spells. I never was a fan of Eldritch Blast>Eldritch Blast>Eldritch Blast.

Chanters definitly got a lot of love. They are an interesting take on a passive spellcasters. They are also lore-friendly and can do something in combat except casting. Simple, but effective class with smart design concidering amount of management you usually do in RtWP combat.

I hope Josh would change his mind on 1 talent/3 levels, unless there are ~20 levels in game, it won't be enough to make every class interesting to customize.

 

[Black]

20 pages to read

Be brave, it's full of schadenfreude and balance.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Can't believe some people miss the loss of the awful BG2 IE character system.
The worst system ever where you only need to max 2 stat at best, absolutely 0 customization possible, every character of the same class being strictly identical.
His only redeeming aspect was the multi-classing possibilities, otherwise it was totally rubbish.
As bad as PoE system seems to be it is better, at least now you can have slight difference between characters of the same class.

Caster types don't have much use for stats in BG2 (especially sorcerer, unless you want do derp around with a Wish spell) but as any kind of fighter hybrid I'd certainly max 3 stats atleast (STR, DEX and CON), maybe one more depending on whether I want to dual-class (only human) for which there's certainly incentive given how powerful dual-class chars can become.

I also think in BG2 kits add a lot to its CC system despite Sawyer viewing them as patches or whatever.

The lack of impact of stats should definitely be criticized (and it's something I'm disappointed with myself), but doing it on the basis of the IE games is bizarre. Here's the class progression chart for the Baldur's Gate - none of the stats are even referenced in it: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

Start BG1 with a fighter that has 3 in STR, DEX and CON, tell me how it goes (tip: run from the wolves).

 

[Sensuki]

From Dimitri:

Polina hasn't been on the project for a long while now (half a year or more), so it's just Kaz, he's got a full plate of stuff - UI, Portraits, Interstitial, icons..

I wonder if this will impact area paintovers ?

One guy paints over 150 maps and does all that .. okay

2015 guys