Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

I don't really get complaining about itemization in a tiny slice of the game in a beta.

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

Dispite my bitching about character creation, I know I will love this game because of the story, C&C and the atmosphere. Thankfully I'm not a combatfag or a systemfag. I'm just dissapointed a little, that this game could have been perfect, but Sawyer fucks it up.

LoL

Who exactly would have made it perfect? MCA? Tim Cain?

Because I'm pretty sure Tim Cain wouldn't have done your BG2 crafting either.

Also a lot of the narrative mechanics are Sawyer as well.

Obviously David Gaider

Spoiler

not actually a troll, given his ascension mod, he would make exactly what many posters unhappy with this want

 

[DeepOcean]

Man, Pillars of Eternity may even end like a pile of shit and I wouldn't care, the butthurt in this thread is great entertainment. Who cares with Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones if there are episodes of the new show, Sawyer against the People on the RPGCodex Butthurt Network to watch?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sawyer gets it, he focuses on the important stuff. I was always sad that Shank's dagger couldn't remain competitive and viable throughout the whole game, was very emotionally attached to that weapon (a trophy from my very first kill ).

How enjoyable it would have been If I could have eventually molded it into Shank's Superb Dagger of Rape and Murder and stabbed Sarevok to death with it.

 

[Grunker]

Obviously David Gaider

Gaider is actually a pretty good game designer. He sucks at writing. I don't think Roguey was wrong when he identified his career as the Peter principle at work.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Someone on the Obs Forum posted George Ziets' impressions of the PoE beta and I am shamelessly swiping it:

http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses


Question:

George what do you think of the POE backer Beta? In particular the combat? Have you completely lost touch with the game?



GZiets

I played for a few hours this weekend - got through all the town content, as well as a wilderness map and a dungeon, before finally being defeated by a variety of bugs. Here are my thoughts so far:

In my opinion, combat is still too buggy to give it a fair assessment. There’s a sophisticated combat system lurking under the surface of this game, and some of it is pretty cool, but right now it’s not getting a chance to shine. In its current buggy state, fine control over my party seemed virtually impossible, and I resorted to directing them more like an RTS, paying little attention to the details. As I played, I couldn’t shake the feeling that the mechanics would be better served by turn-based (or at least slower-paced) gameplay. However, that might be my own prejudices showing through.

Some other reactions:
Loved the richness of the world and the hints I got about the story.

Liked the per encounter abilities. These encouraged me to spend them in combat, rather than hoarding them for the most desperate situations.

Liked the autopause options, though these still didn’t pause the action as much as I would have preferred. (Wish I had the equivalent of a per-round pause. Maybe that could be approximated by playing around with the Combat Time setting.)

Liked that I could mouse over lines in the combat logs to get details about how I had rolled, how the enemy’s defense stat had affected my roll, etc. This turned out to be a very effective way to quickly learn the basics of the combat system.

Liked the size and layout of the town. Felt like there was a nice balance of things to do and people to meet, and almost every building or POI had a purpose.

Liked the fact that dialogue showed me other options that would be visible if I had the appropriate skill (though when I raised my skills to the appropriate levels, those options seemed to be largely cosmetic, which was a little disappointing – hopefully there will be cases where they lead to alternate quest resolutions).

Didn’t like the very limited inventory space for my characters.

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

Minor point, but I was disappointed that I couldn’t become a cleric of Galawain, the beast god. (I played a nature godlike, so it seemed like a natural fit.)

A number of offensive spells seemed to be AOEs, which were virtually never useful since combat almost always devolved into a random melee within seconds.

(I haven’t completely lost touch with PoE, but I the last time I actively worked on it was during preproduction.)

 

[Nikaido]

Obviously David Gaider

Spoiler

not actually a troll, given his ascension mod, he would make exactly what many posters unhappy with this want

Ascension was awesome. It was part of what made me feel like doing multiple runs of the game with less party members (two to be exact) to see how much of the game was still realistically do-able without too much exploiting (nothing more than use of prebuffing. No spam of trap-like spells or the like.). The mod brought better AI, gave many more abilities and most of all, more opponents to deal with during battles. You really had to know the game counters well to make it work but that was what made it so satisfying.
Balance Queens ruin everything. Including the original ToB; as for example, the Tougher Demogorgon and Illasera part of Ascension is nothing more than.. what was originally planned for the game before they toned it down.

This mod is a labour of love, made by a developer who genuinely loved his work, at least at the time he did it. I'd have a lot more faith in a David Gaider's About To Make You His Bitch kickstarter than this Sawyer's Suck My Dick bland tripe.

 

[purpleblob]

If it will be bad or mediocre or even good, it remains to be seen, but it is true that it will play nothing like BG2, which is a shame.

I cant help but question a lot of the choices sawyer has made and how the game seems a lot blander for it. Like exp distribution, linear stats, no hard counters, no lethal effects only higher numbers.

And other stuff i really cant comment on because ive yet to try the game like the combat, the dialogue system, etc.

exp destribution is perfect, linear stats can be salvaged with Number tweaking, no hard counters is complete shit i give you that, no lethal effects is shit as well.
It won't play as good as BG2, but i would say something on par with IWD-IWD2 is entirely possible.

Reading through this thread, it's pretty much given it won't be as fun nor polished as BG2 (then again, that may not be fair comparison as BG2 is a sequel). I would be over the moon if PoE plays like IWD1, I had a blast with that game (just lacked good dialogues & joinable NPCs). But if it's on the par with IWD2 or worse, no thanks, I will pass.

Only time will tell but my biggest concern is polish. I'm not really too into combat nor understand mechanic as well so won't comment on that, but stuff like items disappearing, journal entries not working correctly etc all seems too much even for a beta considering there's only ~3 months left till December release (unless those are fixed? this thread is moving too fast, can't keep track all the time).

I didn't back this game and I'm glad I didn't. Too bad, I was really hoping for a second BG2... don't know what I will look forward to now. I suppose at least this thread is entertaining to read.

 

[Snerf]

Just felt like rambling about the item stuff.

I think one of the key take-aways with regards to itemization and comparison to BG2 is the vital role this system plays in contributing to not only world-building, but in setting up two components that create the foundation for an enjoyable RPG - creating stories (not the bioware on-rails definition of story, but rather the methods by which the player is connected to the world) and establishing a sense of unpredictability.

Stories because when it comes to finding items, we want each item to feel like it followed a path to whatever bugbear or lich we recover it from. It’s boring if the item feels like it was randomly generated from a loot table. It’s fun and exciting if the item feels unique and like it followed a believable path to the point where the player finds it. It’s why we like it when npc loot used by that npc is “dropped” and translated into usable equipment – we’ve just added a memorable chapter to that item’s story. When you looted the holy avenger in BG2, it immediately fills in a story.

Looks like we aren’t the first paladin to try and kill firkrag - sucks for the other guy, great for us, and lets the player fill in a story around it.

Unpredictability because when setting out on a game like this, even though it isn't possible, we want to believe that the next shiny thing could be anything. We don’t want to know the ugly truth that there is an item table, or a finite list of weapons enchantments and that the item is simply a prefix, suffix and quality. If you establish early in a game like PoE that trinkets and artifacts could be anything (and found at varying levels of power and usefulness), you escape that prefix/suffix blandness.

It’s exactly why unique items of low level are important in a game like BG/BG2/PoE – even if those items aren’t particularly useful in the long run, they have a meaningful impact establishing a precedence of unpredictability and mystery that carries the player through the entire game. This is actually why BG1’s cursed gender belt is one of my favorite items in the series. Even though it’s totally useless, you come across it right after setting out from Candlekeep and it makes you think “Whoa, that’s outside the box, I wonder what else I’ll find?

 

[DefJam101]

Sawyer saying "I don't like hard counters" doesn't mean that the game not having hard counters is ok.

hard counters being garbage shit for idiots is what makes it okay

while I can appreciate and identify with a strong desire to tell the world how terrible D&D is can we please not do it by making retarded blanket statements

 

[Rake]

I don't really get complaining about itemization in a tiny slice of the game in a beta.

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

Dispite my bitching about character creation, I know I will love this game because of the story, C&C and the atmosphere. Thankfully I'm not a combatfag or a systemfag. I'm just dissapointed a little, that this game could have been perfect, but Sawyer fucks it up.

LoL

Who exactly would have made it perfect? MCA? Tim Cain?

Because I'm pretty sure Tim Cain wouldn't have done your BG2 crafting either.

Also a lot of the narrative mechanics are Sawyer as well.

Obviously David Gaider

Spoiler

not actually a troll, given his ascension mod, he would make exactly what many posters unhappy with this want

I would like his addition to PoE team (or Obsidian) very much, with the clause that they will stop him by force if he even thinks about writing for the game. He can design all he wants though

I'd have a lot more faith in a David Gaider's About To Make You His Bitch kickstarter than this Sawyer's Suck My Dick bland tripe.

I would agree if only the highlighted part wouldn't include a gay dwarf NPC making your PC literaly his bitch.

 

[Zed]

Didn’t like the very limited inventory space for my characters.

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

ZIETS HAS SPOKEN

ETCH IT IN STONE, SOOTHSAYER, FOR THIS WILL BE AN ETERNAL TRUTH

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

^ You should definetely post that over at Obs.

MICO WHERE ARE YOU

Copy-pasted his post there: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67815-on-the-significance-of-stats/

Thanks. I love how there is exactly zero interest about this at Obsidian forums. Maybe I should have given amore sensationalist title to the thread - I am not much of a marketing guy.

I love 'Sucky'..lol, for some reason his portrait and name make me laugh without doing anything else.

Go! sucky Go!

 

[Nihiliste]

Basically what I'm saying is: you don't develop a game starting from "blandness" and trying to infuse some life on it later (at which, you will fail).
You have to do the OPPOSITE: you start with the crazy and then, if it REALLY is a problem, you tone it down a little.

With the disclaimer that this isn't a comment on PoE (haven't played it), this notion is absolutely spot on - with anything in life. If you want to make something that really grips an audience, you have to start with what makes your work special, and then work on bringing everything in line. You can't play all your decisions safe and then work on infusing creativity, not if you want people to remember what you've done.

It actually goes in line somewhat with what Chris Avellone was saying about game design - you find ways to allow players to do and experience things they've never done before. I'm no game designer but I imagine it must be pretty hard to do that if your overarching goal is absolute competitive balance.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

All this bitching about crafting systems, go play Arx Fatalis.

Lets hope this game just makes them realize turn based combat is better.

 

[Volourn]

"But I happen to know a LOT of people who love the crafting in PoE."

But, but, but... the game isn't even released ye6. Oh, i forgot, it's okay to be a fanboy pre release but being critical pre release is wrong? HAHAHA The Internetz!!!



Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD."

Not if it's written like AP, DS3, or SOZ. Those were written shittedly.


"claiming that Sawyer's systems are bad/flawed design"

Some of systems are flat out bad/flawed. This is fact. The whole blanket 'no hard counters' is retarted. The whole 'no combat xp because combat xp is evil' is retarted.

On top fo that,we know how Sawyer and hsic ronies work. If the game is good he'll take all the credit, but if it turns out bad he'll blame the gronards/BG. That's hwo he rolls..


"50% hated hard encounters and loved IE games despite it."

FUCK OFF.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

"But I happen to know a LOT of people who love the crafting in PoE."

But, but, but... the game isn't even released ye6. Oh, i forgot, it's okay to be a fanboy pre release but being critical pre release is wrong? HAHAHA The Internetz!!!



Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD."

Not if it's written like AP, DS3, or SOZ. Those were written shittedly.


"claiming that Sawyer's systems are bad/flawed design"

Some of systems are flat out bad/flawed. This is fact. The whole blanket 'no hard counters' is retarted. The whole 'no combat xp because combat xp is evil' is retarted.

On top fo that,we know how Sawyer and hsic ronies work. If the game is good he'll take all the credit, but if it turns out bad he'll blame the gronards/BG. That's hwo he rolls..


"50% hated hard encounters and loved IE games despite it."

FUCK OFF.

Woah, woah, woah, I don't have much an opinion on much of what you said, but please refrain form insulting the writing in Alpha Protocol. The game overall might not have been great but the writing holds a special place in my heart

 

[Volourn]

It hold a special place in my toilet...

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

It hold a special place in my toilet...

Keeping your head company I would imagine.

 

[Volourn]

Sure, after reading posts liek yours or playing games like AP I need remove the stink of being linked to such crap.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Sure, after reading posts liek yours or playing games like AP I need remove the stink of being linked to such crap.

 

[Bonerbill]

It hold a special place in my toilet...

Keeping your head company I would imagine.

You know he's baiting you, right? He's a pretty princess for a reason. <3

 

[Cyclone]

Why make helmets usless? Personal preference, why not +1 vs Crits?

It makes it to wher you'l just sell the helmets for some fast cash as soon as you get one. It reduces them to nothing more than a few coins.

Some helmets will have stats on them, which will make them valuable. Also, for discussion, this thread should go in the discussion forum. I will move this thread there.

lol look at what your itemization and balance has wrought, oh Sawyerfags. Look upon it and despair. Helmets that don't do anything? This is shit, complete shit, a spit in the face to the Infinity Engine gaming tradition by a man who hates everything that was ever good about those games. I bet he just did it so it would be "viable" (*spits*) to play a helmetless character. Any idiot knows you're supposed to wear a goddamn helmet in war. Sawyer's just babying the popamole moron patrol who love "balance". The worst thing is that lots of the idiots playing the beta don't even realize how awful everything about this game (which I have not played) is, and are instead happier than pigs in shit playing this 4e MMO clone.

Am I doing it right?

 

[Jaesun]

no.

 

[roshan]

IWD2 and other 3E games also had helmets which did absolutely nothing. I personally didn't at all like that helmets made you immune to critical hits in the 2nd edition games. Removing the enemy's ability to critical hit you made combat less interesting, less threatening.

NWN as I recall made helmets give a +1 bonus to concentration. Some benefit however minor would be cool, but not OP benefits that skew combat completely in your character's favor. I think a cool mechanic would be for helmets to provide AC bonuses, with more sturdy helms also providing penalties to perception.

 

[Jaesun]

Helmets. The single point of cRPG design. DISCUSS!