Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

"Toyota doesn't sell any cars because Ferrari makes better ones."

Toyota wouldn't sell many cars if the real world had a video game economy and everyone was a PC.

 

[J_C]

The Witcher 1 had a cool crafting system. So did KotOR II. Well, the latter wasn't interesting per se I guess but it didn't compete with other systems and it was really cool when you found unique upgrades.

edit: if what Rake says is true I guess maybe PoE's will work more like K2's, which is alright with me.

Yeah those were pretty cool. I mean Witcher 1 had a pretty cool system, because hell if I remember the crafting in Kotor 2. It was a long time ago. But as I see it in the PoE wiki, you will craft every basic thing starting from meat stew to Stamina potions. Which will be probably useless, because you can find and buy this shit anyway.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

This game at best will be a mediocre RTwP dungeon crawler, a better version of Aarklash Legacy perhaps (which was total complete utter shit, so the bars not high) ... but oh boy it won't be anything like BG2

Awaiting more delicious butthurt from the people who donated to this nostalgia scam.

 

[Rake]

The Witcher 1 had a cool crafting system. So did KotOR II. Well, the latter wasn't interesting per se I guess but it didn't compete with other systems and it was really cool when you found unique upgrades.

edit: if what Rake says is true I guess maybe PoE's will work more like K2's, which is alright with me.

Yeah those were pretty cool. I mean Witcher 1 had a pretty cool system, because hell if I remember the crafting in Kotor 2. It was a long time ago. But as I see it in the PoE wiki, you will craft every basic thing starting from meat stew to Stamina potions. Which will be probably useless, because you can find and buy this shit anyway.

I don't mind this since i dislike crafting in games, and i rarely use consumables, so that means i can ignore PoE crafting if i want, unless i find a unigue item i realy realy like and i'll upgrade it so i can use it until end game. I wouldn't have a problem if Cespenar allowed me to make Blackrazor or Celestial Furry +5 Weapons like he did Flail of Ages. And Sawyer said there will be BG2 style crafting as well.
All in all, it seems like the best of both worlds, BG2-Witcher1-K2 systems rolled into one. I could Live without crafting at all (except the BG2 part,that rocked) but as far as crafting systems go, it's not a bad one.

 

[Lhynn]

If it will be bad or mediocre or even good, it remains to be seen, but it is true that it will play nothing like BG2, which is a shame.

I cant help but question a lot of the choices sawyer has made and how the game seems a lot blander for it. Like exp distribution, linear stats, no hard counters, no lethal effects only higher numbers.

And other stuff i really cant comment on because ive yet to try the game like the combat, the dialogue system, etc.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

This game at best will be a mediocre RTwP dungeon crawler, a better version of Aarklash Legacy perhaps (which was total complete utter shit, so the bars not high) ... but oh boy it won't be anything like BG2

Awaiting more delicious butthurt from the people who donated to this nostalgia scam.

From the way people are bathing in schadenfreude, you'd think Rougey touched them in their sleep when they were kids.

 

[felipepepe]

1. I don't have an opinion about what made the IE games good in an absolute way. That would be very pretentious since it's different for everyone.

But Sawyer clearly has, and that's what annoys me, because I'm left out of his definition.

2. I'm defending some things in the sense that it is really premature to judge for example whether PoE has unique items or not. As you have proven. You claimed PoE would not have unique items that could not be replicated by enchanting. You were wrong. Not because you are stupid but because you're very prejudiced. But ok the itemization isnt all magically good now (everything depends on the implementation), no one disagrees about that. But please explain what about the itemization (the core principles of itemization in PoE, and don't talk about the impact of attributes, that's a different problem) do you still hate then?

Again, I judge what I see. All we knew about items came from the beta, and all unique items in the beta followed a pattern. I analyzed that pattern, you waited for more info. Mine position can indeed lead to premature jugments, but it's a beta, as people often recall, everything can change - and I prefer to risk being premature and have a debate than just waiting months for the final release.

On itemization, I hate the overreliance on % increments, the lack of hard counters and the lack of requirements both on classes and attributes. Also how crafting cheapens unique items & rare finds.

IMHO a great game is meant to be replayable. I think that meta-gaming is part of any solid game, because you only play a game for the first time once. I liked making whole parties around weapons that I couldn't use the first time, feeling powerful with hard counters, intentionally playing weaker classes with exotic weapons and even cheesing the game on harder difficulties. Things Sawyer willl write articles and tell you in bold are bullshit.

3. ''Doesnt mean the game having no hard counters is ok''. It's a design philosphy that is not necessarily ''right'' or ''wrong''. It's your personal preference/opinion that hard counters are fun. Sawyer doesnt like it (it's his game what can we do about it) and maybe you hate that but it doesnt make it a bad or flawed decision. It might not be your taste but why would your personal taste be relevant for us?

Well, if you don't care for others opinion, then why are you reading the Codex? The whole forum is nothing but people giving their opinion on things. My point is that IE had hard counters and it was fun.

I would debate hard counters for any game, but it's more relevant here because PoE was sold as a successor to IE, and I think that hard counters was a key part in making itemization so memmorable and multiple replays so fun.

4. Same thing about your statement about crafting. Personally I agree with you, for me it doesnt add too much to a game like this. But I happen to know a LOT of people who love the crafting in PoE. It's again a matter of you talking and deciding for everyone what is worthwile and what is not. You're a combination of extreme prejudice and pretentiousness.

Ah, but I don't decide anything, that's the point. I'm just a guy rambling on a forum. You can even click on ignore and I'll vanish from your life. My problem is that there's a guy with the exact opposite views as I but the same attitude, and he's the lead designer of a nostalgia-driven crowd-funded game, he decides everything.

Just imagine if I was in charge of PoE, implementing all my views that you disagree with. That's how I feel.

 

[Rake]

If it will be bad or mediocre or even good, it remains to be seen, but it is true that it will play nothing like BG2, which is a shame.

I cant help but question a lot of the choices sawyer has made and how the game seems a lot blander for it. Like exp distribution, linear stats, no hard counters, no lethal effects only higher numbers.

And other stuff i really cant comment on because ive yet to try the game like the combat, the dialogue system, etc.

exp destribution is perfect, linear stats can be salvaged with Number tweaking, no hard counters is complete shit i give you that, no lethal effects is shit as well.
It won't play as good as BG2, but i would say something on par with IWD-IWD2 is entirely possible.

 

[Semper]

Awaiting more delicious butthurt from the people who donated to this nostalgia scam.

hear. hear. nosturdamus hath spoken again.
don't you wanna butthurt about unique items anymore?

 

[J_C]

The Witcher 1 had a cool crafting system. So did KotOR II. Well, the latter wasn't interesting per se I guess but it didn't compete with other systems and it was really cool when you found unique upgrades.

edit: if what Rake says is true I guess maybe PoE's will work more like K2's, which is alright with me.

Yeah those were pretty cool. I mean Witcher 1 had a pretty cool system, because hell if I remember the crafting in Kotor 2. It was a long time ago. But as I see it in the PoE wiki, you will craft every basic thing starting from meat stew to Stamina potions. Which will be probably useless, because you can find and buy this shit anyway.

I don't mind this since i dislike crafting in games, and i rarely use consumables, so that means i can ignore PoE crafting if i want, unless i find a unigue item i realy realy like and i'll upgrade it so i can use it until end game. I wouldn't have a problem if Cespenar allowed me to make Blackrazor or Celestial Furry +5 Weapons like he did Flail of Ages. And Sawyer said there will be BG2 style crafting as well.
All in all, it seems like the best of both worlds, BG2-Witcher1-K2 systems rolled into one. I could Live without crafting at all (except the BG2 part,that rocked) but as far as crafting systems go, it's not a bad one.

If it will have BG2 style crafting, I will be happy, even if it will have some other shit crafting.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

 

[J_C]

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

Dispite my bitching about character creation, I know I will love this game because of the story, C&C and the atmosphere. Thankfully I'm not a combatfag or a systemfag. I'm just dissapointed a little, that this game could have been perfect, but Sawyer fucks it up.

 

[Bonerbill]

This game at best will be a mediocre RTwP dungeon crawler, a better version of Aarklash Legacy perhaps (which was total complete utter shit, so the bars not high) ... but oh boy it won't be anything like BG2

Awaiting more delicious butthurt from the people who donated to this nostalgia scam.

Good. The less like BG2's crappy RTwP system, the better.

 

[Lhynn]

If it will be bad or mediocre or even good, it remains to be seen, but it is true that it will play nothing like BG2, which is a shame.

I cant help but question a lot of the choices sawyer has made and how the game seems a lot blander for it. Like exp distribution, linear stats, no hard counters, no lethal effects only higher numbers.

And other stuff i really cant comment on because ive yet to try the game like the combat, the dialogue system, etc.

exp destribution is perfect, linear stats can be salvaged with Number tweaking, no hard counters is complete shit i give you that, no lethal effects is shit as well.
It won't play as good as BG2, but i would say something on par with IWD-IWD2 is entirely possible.

Exp distribution perfect? the way it is right now it might as well not be there at all. i mean, you are literally clapping to a system that has no reason to be in the game. might as well just award you a level whenever they feel like it.

I doubt stats will be salvaged, the numbers may be increased to make them matter (herp derp, cant believe no one in the design team realized that they practically do nothing) but it will probably be in a linear way.

IWD i would replay, IWD2 i really dont care for (it starts off well enough, but eventually it becomes so banal boring shit). There is a huge gap in quality between them.

 

[Duraframe300]

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

Dispite my bitching about character creation, I know I will love this game because of the story, C&C and the atmosphere. Thankfully I'm not a combatfag or a systemfag. I'm just dissapointed a little, that this game could have been perfect, but Sawyer fucks it up.

LoL

Who exactly would have made it perfect? MCA? Tim Cain?

Because I'm pretty sure Tim Cain wouldn't have done your BG2 crafting either.

Also a lot of the narrative mechanics are Sawyer as well.

 

[J_C]

Whatever one thinks of the systems and combat, the writing and CYOA aspects will probably be a lot better than BG/IWD. With no combat xp and non-violent options in many encounters those who dislike Real-time-with-Sawyer could always avoid combat wherever possible and play it like a CYOA game...

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

Dispite my bitching about character creation, I know I will love this game because of the story, C&C and the atmosphere. Thankfully I'm not a combatfag or a systemfag. I'm just dissapointed a little, that this game could have been perfect, but Sawyer fucks it up.

LoL

Who exactly would have made it perfect? MCA? Tim Cain?

Because I'm pretty sure Tim Cain wouldn't have done your BG2 crafting either.

Who cares who can come up with this idea? Maybe neither MCA nor Tim would have made BG2 style crafting. I just hoped that SOMEBODY would.

 

[Zed]

Who exactly would have made it perfect? MCA? Tim Cain?

beamdog of course

 

[imweasel]

And then start the "It is impossible to completely avoid combat in PoE" thread.

and "combat-story-faggotry vs. stealth-story-faggotry, which is better and why?"


The threads on the Codex will be glorious after this game is released.

 

[Frusciante]

Well, if you don't care for others opinion, then why are you reading the Codex? The whole forum is nothing but people giving their opinion on things.

That's true. And I also don't mind reading opinions but there's a difference between presenting an opinion (your preferences about certain systems) and claiming that Sawyer's systems are bad/flawed design regardless of personal preference. And yes I know the style of discussion/argumentation here is to use a lot of hyperboles. But I will still try to bring some reason in the debate and focus on the facts instead of assuming the worsed.

My point is that IE had hard counters and it was fun.

I would debate hard counters for any game, but it's more relevant here because PoE was sold as a successor to IE, and I think that hard counters was a key part in making itemization so memmorable and multiple replays so fun.

Ok, thats a fair point. But this is kind of a gray area because when you get into what every IE succesor should have you're getting into very subjective territory. And that's fine ofcourse but it's no basis to make absolute statements about the complete failure of PoE's design. But yes when hard counters are that important for you then I understand why you wouldnt like this game.

Unfortunately it's very hard to argue that not having hard counters is a design failure. Because as said before it might be that the 50% of the players hated hard counters. So what should you then do as a designer? 50% thinks hard counters made the IE games special the other 50% hated hard encounters and loved IE games despite it.

Ah, but I don't decide anything, that's the point. I'm just a guy rambling on a forum. You can even click on ignore and I'll vanish from your life. My problem is that there's a guy with the exact opposite views as I but the same attitude, and he's the lead designer of a nostalgia-driven crowd-funded game, he decides everything.

Just imagine if I was in charge of PoE, implementing all my views that you disagree with. That's how I feel.

That's unfortunate for you then. Personally I can't imagine that I would have much problem if you decided to go for a different design. I enjoy games with hard counters and without (especially because I find it a minor issue). I enjoy balanced games and I enjoy unbalanced games. For me it's about the execution of a good, consistent vision. So thay's why I mostly don't get the insane buthurt over design choices that are (in my opinion) not that controversial.

And my irritation comes mostly from the disability of people to actually argue over why a certain design is bad in an absolute way. Instead most reactions are either highly subjective and personal (which is fine but no basis to make absolute claims like the game is a failure/the game is doomed/everything is shit) or people are highly uninformed/prejudiced.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Or maybe you are obsessed. Maybe just maybe he just wants to give players options to keep using a weapon they like. There might be people who love the fact that their sword from the beginning of the game is getting a history of it's own by using it the entire playthrough.

But doesn't that make other weapons useless then? Ah, right, if they're all "viable" then it's OPTANS!!! As opposed to say having both Knock and an unlock skill which wouldn't be options but redundancy, amirite?

 

[Infinitron]

This thread is becoming dangerously retarded

Somebody find a new Sawyer quote

 

[Frusciante]

Or maybe you are obsessed. Maybe just maybe he just wants to give players options to keep using a weapon they like. There might be people who love the fact that their sword from the beginning of the game is getting a history of it's own by using it the entire playthrough.

But doesn't that make other weapons useless then? Ah, right, if they're all "viable" then it's OPTANS!!! As opposed to say having both Knock and an unlock spell which wouldn't be options but redundancy, amirite?

Why would it make other weapons useless? Please try to make an argument for this. And please make sure that you are correctly informed so that your post is not filled with lies and ignorance.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Why would it make other weapons useless? Please try to make an argument for this. And please make sure that you are correctly informed so that your post is not filled with lies and ignorance.

Why does Knock make an unlock skill useless? Dunno, ask Sawyer, I'm sure he can spin some bullshit about how using the same weapon for the whole game is giving options, but having an "overpowered" unique item is unbalanced and horrible and you'll eat it up because IE games sucked and Sawyer can only do good.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

This thread is becoming dangerously retarded

Somebody find a new Sawyer quote

I've really never understood why turnbased games don't just run the enemies' actions together into one turn. Just have them move all simultaneously.
Even in games with initiative, you could just take any two or more clumping of enemy turns and have it go in one turn. Man, what a world that would be.

ToEE does that (IIRC?) and it works pretty well.

Presto!

 

[Frusciante]

Why would it make other weapons useless? Please try to make an argument for this. And please make sure that you are correctly informed so that your post is not filled with lies and ignorance.

Why does Knock make an unlock skill useless? Dunno, ask Sawyer, I'm sure he can spin some bullshit about how using the same weapon for the whole game is giving options, but having an "overpowered" unique item is unbalanced and horrible and you'll eat it up because IE games sucked and Sawyer can only do good.

I'm trying to get you to make an actual argument.

But I will explain the difference and then you can still make your argument.

Knock and unlock (skill) are perfect substitutes (assuming knock and unlock can open all doors in the end). Enchanted weapons and looted weapons are not perfect substitutes because:

A. There are uique items that cannot be made with enchanting
B. There is a resource cost involved in enchanting
C. There is a time/combat barrier to finding loot in the wild
D. Each weapon in PoE has different strengths and weaknesses so just enchanting one weapon and using it for the whole game will not work because you need more then one weapon type. You could enchant a lot of different weapons but then you get back to point B and C.

Arguing the other way around might be more fruitful. Why would I enchant weapons when I can find them in the wild or buy them too plus also have a chance to find weapons that I cannot make with enchanting?

And that is where the reason for the enchanting system comes in: you can tweak any weapon you find to suit your playstyle/preferences perfectly.

Now I can support two arguments against this:

1. This system gives you a lot of control and it might be more fun to just work with what you find in the wild. This gives the game more randomness and depending on your preferences more fun.
2. Knock and unlock are also not perfect substitutes because knock requires a spell slot and unlock requires lockpicks.

But there are ofcourse also a lot of positive points to make about sawyer's design. So conclusion: it's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

About having overpowered unique items or not: this is a different topic entirely. I can see you're confused and cannot properly analyse the situation.