Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lhynn]

I actually believe the new options added to crafting are pretty cool.

 

[Grunker]

What happened to "don't worry Grunker, the crafting system won't compete with other systems, it's just used for consumables"?

I even think it was Sawyer himself that said that to me via you posing the question Infinitron.

Hmmm, I don't remember that.

Personally, I don't really give a shit if somebody wants to put a proc on his rusty dagger.

Not the point. The point was not having crafting competing with other systems.

I don't know, it depends on your definition of "competition". Are all crafting recipes available to the player from the beginning of the game? I think it'd be cool if it was guaranteed that you'd never get, for instance, a +3 enchantment recipe until well after you'd found a "natural" +3 weapon in the game.

The point is that either crafted weapons or found weapons will be best, invalidating the other system to an extend. I found my posts about it here:

In any game I've ever tried, Crafting has only added to the game if it allowed you to Craft things inaccessible by other means. Crafting gear means that either:

1) Rewards and items in the gameworld are worthless as Crafting is better.

2) Crafting is worthless because found items are better.

Contrast this to games like The Witcher where crafting exists in its own space. What you gain by crafting is only attainable by crafting, and hence crafting is neither worthless nor a substitute for anything.

EDIT: Asked Sawyer on Formspring about it.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-754#post-2741194

But I can't find Sawyer's responce. I'm certain he gave one to either you or Sensuki or perhaps (though I don't think so) Roguey.

 

[Harold]

Maybe just maybe he just wants to give players options to keep using a weapon they like. There might be people who love the fact that their sword from the beginning of the game is getting a history of it's own by using it the entire playthrough.

So most of the crafting system is implemented in order to appease LARPers? Yeah, that seems like a good use of development time... Why not allow players to romance their weapons? Have Lilarcor declare his undying love to you. After all, you never forget your first night with your first rusty dagger.

Also

wild damage curves and all or nothing effects regularly frustrate a lot of people

Bad players refuse to understand how a system works and adapt: overcoming their initial frustration, meeting the challenge and achieving the mythical 'fun'. Sawyer's solution? Balance the fun out for everybody so bad players stop crying.

Oh, all those poor retards who couldn't figure out they need to equip themselves from Pomab's before getting rekt by goblins in IWD. My past 14-year-old self weeps for them even now.

 

[coffeetable]

The point is that either crafted weapons or found weapons will be best, invalidating the other system to an extend.

this might be true if scarcity wasn't a thing in both systems

 

[coffeetable]

"Toyota doesn't sell any cars because Ferrari makes better ones."

 

[Infinitron]

The point is that either crafted weapons or found weapons will be best, invalidating the other system to an extend. I found my posts about it here:

1) I'm not sure it's ever been the point of crafting to create an item that's "best". (Crom Faeyr-style BG2 "crafting" doesn't count here)

2) I'm not sure you can rank weapons so easily as "worse" and "better".

So, let's say you're playing a character that specializes in using a certain type of weapon, let's say daggers, but you can't find a dagger with a really good proc or status effect that you saw on another weapon. Well, you can craft that. But, there may be other weapons in the world that are "better" by some measure (both non-daggers, and daggers with other procs).

 

[felipepepe]

That kind of enchantment system makes sense in a game like Dark Souls, where every weapon has a unique moveset, stamina drain and really alter the playstyle, but why make sure that the rusty dagger is as useful as the legendary dagger you find later on? Especially since you specializae in weapon groups, not individual weapons, so there's no reason for not replacing bad items for better ones from the same goup.

Infinitron keeps talking about limited resources and stuff, but this is a great example of feature that takes a lot of time to add, with all the recipes, materials and then balancing the effects, and adds very little to the game.

there will be some unique items?
WOW THIS SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS ABOUT DIS GAEM THANK YOU GODS OF BALANCE

No it doesnt. But it says something about the people complaining about it. Fatalistic, pessimistic people. And it's exemplary for all things related to this game. People assume the worsed based on nothing but buthurt about the lead designer.

As opposed to optimistic people that keep defending features only on hope and trust for the lead developer? You didn't understand Roxor's post, did you? Having one or two uique items doesn't magically fix the itemization. Sawyer saying "I don't like hard counters" doesn't mean that the game not having hard counters is not an issue.

As I replied to you pages ago and you didn't bother to notice, maybe it's yours and Sawyers narrow view of what made IE games that keeps upseting people. Not everyone played the game the same way, and Sawyer is quite set that his is the right way and oters are just "wrong".

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron keeps talking about limited resources and stuff, but this is a great example of feature that takes a lot of time to add, with all the recipes, materials and then balancing the effects, and adds very little to the game.

Ahem.

Personally, I could have lived without crafting, but it was a Kickstarter stretch goal, so yeah.

 

[coffeetable]

Sawyer saying "I don't like hard counters" doesn't mean that the game not having hard counters is ok.

hard counters being garbage shit for idiots is what makes it okay

 

[Rake]

What happened to "don't worry Grunker, the crafting system won't compete with other systems, it's just used for consumables"?

I even think it was Sawyer himself that said that to me via you posing the question Infinitron.

Hmmm, I don't remember that.

Personally, I don't really give a shit if somebody wants to put a proc on his rusty dagger.

Not the point. The point was not having crafting competing with other systems.

I don't know, it depends on your definition of "competition". Are all crafting recipes available to the player from the beginning of the game? I think it'd be cool if it was guaranteed that you'd never get, for instance, a +3 enchantment recipe until well after you'd found a "natural" +3 weapon in the game.

The point is that either crafted weapons or found weapons will be best, invalidating the other system to an extend. I found my posts about it here:

In any game I've ever tried, Crafting has only added to the game if it allowed you to Craft things inaccessible by other means. Crafting gear means that either:

1) Rewards and items in the gameworld are worthless as Crafting is better.

2) Crafting is worthless because found items are worthless.

Contrast this to games like The Witcher where crafting exists in its own space. What you gain by crafting is only attainable by crafting, and hence crafting is neither worthless nor a substitute for anything.

EDIT: Asked Sawyer on Formspring about it.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-754#post-2741194

But I can't find Sawyer's responce. I'm certain he gave one to either you or Sensuki or perhaps (though I don't think so) Roguey.

In PoE he took a balanced approach.
Game items and rewards will be better, but they can improved even further with crafting.
Crafting exists in it's own space as well with consumables. So all in all, it isn't useless, but doesn't make game items worthless either. You will be able to enchant a mundane weapon to +5, but that's it. You can enchant Blackrazor to +5 and improve it's regeneration bonus, but you won't be able to add Vorpal Hit and Slow on hit to it.

 

[Lhynn]

Infinitron, do you have a link to the new crafting system? as i interpreted it offers a chance to enchance or upgrade items that already exist. That alone seems to be pretty cool.

 

[Harold]

hard counters being excellent moron-detectors is why Sawyer doesn't like them

improved balanced

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron, do you have a link to the new crafting system? as i interpreted it offers a chance to enchance or upgrade items that already exist. That alone seems to be pretty cool.

S'nothing new, I remember being able to do that in NWN1: Hordes of the Underdark.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crafting

 

[Harold]

at the money cost for crafting those potions. What do they do, give you permanent bonuses?

 

[felipepepe]

Personally, I could have lived without crafting, but it was a Kickstarter stretch goal, so yeah.

So? Coulnd't they make on on "better AI", "meaningful reaction to races" and stuff like that? Why ask for extra money for an extra feature that adds so little?

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron, do you have a link to the new crafting system? as i interpreted it offers a chance to enchance or upgrade items that already exist. That alone seems to be pretty cool.

S'nothing new, I remember being able to do that in NWN1: Hordes of the Underdark.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crafting

which incidentally meant that crafting was strictly superior

 

[Frusciante]

That kind of enchantment system makes sense in a game like Dark Souls, where every weapon has a unique moveset, stamina drain and really alter the playstyle, but why make sure that the rusty dagger is as useful as the legendary dagger you find later on? Especially since you specializae in weapon groups, not individual weapons, so there's no reason for not replacing bad items for better ones from the same goup.

Infinitron keeps talking about limited resources and stuff, but this is a great example of feature that takes a lot of time to add, with all the recipes, materials and then balancing the effects, and adds very little to the game.

there will be some unique items?
WOW THIS SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS ABOUT DIS GAEM THANK YOU GODS OF BALANCE

No it doesnt. But it says something about the people complaining about it. Fatalistic, pessimistic people. And it's exemplary for all things related to this game. People assume the worsed based on nothing but buthurt about the lead designer.

As opposed to optimistic people that keep defending features only on hope and trust for the lead developer? You didn't understand Roxor's post, did you? Having one or two uique items doesn't magically fix the itemization. Sawyer saying "I don't like hard counters" doesn't mean that the game not having hard counters is ok.

As I replied to you pages ago and you didn't bother to notice, maybe it's yours and Sawyers narrow view of what made IE games that keeps upseting people. Not everyone played the game the same way, and Sawyer is quite set that his is the right way and oters are just "wrong".

1. I don't have an opinion about what made the IE games good in an absolute way. That would be very pretentious since it's different for everyone.

2. I'm defending some things in the sense that it is really premature to judge for example whether PoE has unique items or not. As you have proven. You claimed PoE would not have unique items that could not be replicated by enchanting. You were wrong. Not because you are stupid but because you're very prejudiced. But ok the itemization isnt all magically good now (everything depends on the implementation), no one disagrees about that. But please explain what about the itemization (the core principles of itemization in PoE, and don't talk about the impact of attributes, that's a different problem) do you still hate then?

3. ''Doesnt mean the game having no hard counters is ok''. It's a design philosphy that is not necessarily ''right'' or ''wrong''. It's your personal preference/opinion that hard counters are fun. Sawyer doesnt like it (it's his game what can we do about it) and maybe you hate that but it doesnt make it a bad or flawed decision. It might not be your taste but why would your personal taste be relevant for us?

4. Same thing about your statement about crafting. Personally I agree with you, for me it doesnt add too much to a game like this. But I happen to know a LOT of people who love the crafting in PoE. It's again a matter of you talking and deciding for everyone what is worthwile and what is not. You're a combination of extreme prejudice and pretentiousness.

 

[Infinitron]

Personally, I could have lived without crafting, but it was a Kickstarter stretch goal, so yeah.

So? Coulnd't they make on on "better AI", "meaningful reaction to races" and stuff like that? Why ask for extra money for an extra feature that adds so little?

Because there are a lot of people who do like it and they were raising money, I suppose. Sawyer does have a history with implementing more involved crafting systems (see FO:NV) so it wasn't unsurprising.

It was one in a long list of "generic RPG feature" stretch goals that the Torment Kickstarter campaign was viciously disparaged for not having six months later.

 

[Grunker]

"Toyota doesn't sell any cars because Ferrari makes better ones."

That must be the most useless comparison I've ever seen.

 

[J_C]

Jesus Christ, nobody can make an interesting crafting system anymore? TES series. Shit. Fallout New Vegas. Shit. Divinity: OS. Boring and shit. PoE? Seems like Divinity: OS lite, so shit. Why can't take make it like BG2, where it was something special, where it worth something? Where the point was not to craft tomatoe soup and minor healing potions, which you can find by the dozen anyway, but to get a few exotic and very rare, powerful items.

I can hardly wait for my inventory to be cluttered with shit ingredients in PoE.

If they really want to stick to this and make this interesting, and really want us to craft every shit potion, then they should limit the potions in the game. Lets same you can't buy them at vendors (or just at a very few), and you rarely find them as loot, so you if you want to use them, you have to craft them.

 

[Grunker]

The Witcher 1 had a cool crafting system. So did KotOR II. Well, the latter wasn't interesting per se I guess but it didn't compete with other systems and it was really cool when you found unique upgrades.

edit: if what Rake says is true I guess maybe PoE's will work more like K2's, which is alright with me.

 

[chotread]

you all went crazy and then Sawyer came back from vacation

 

[Lhynn]

S'nothing new, I remember being able to do that in NWN1: Hordes of the Underdark.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crafting

Nope, its different because this one allows you to add enchancements to already magic gear if i understood correctly, which isnt a bad idea. didnt MotB have something like that?

 

[Grunker]

S'nothing new, I remember being able to do that in NWN1: Hordes of the Underdark.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crafting

Nope, its different because this one allows you to add enchancements to already magic gear

hotu does too

 

[Lhynn]

S'nothing new, I remember being able to do that in NWN1: Hordes of the Underdark.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crafting

Nope, its different because this one allows you to add enchancements to already magic gear

hotu does too

you may be right, too many PW with their own crafting systems so my memory is fuzzy.