Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[coffeetable]

the bottleneck is programmer time. there was almost certainly a huge backlog of bugs in the tracker when the beta was launched, obsidian just decided the sooner they could get a beta out the better

 

[Rivmusique]

After a fairly (in)decent amount of playing, I somehow only just noticed that the spell casting cursor changes when your character would need to move to cast the spell. I'd gotten annoyed a few times when my wizard started walking towards a group instead of casting a fireball and actually thought "they should do something about this" to only just now realise they had, the shame.

Expert mode taking away spell AoE circles is nuts in my opinion, that is pretty bloody vital if you're going to give an attribute that alters them . I doubt I'd play with it on anyway, that recovery bar is quite helpful as it is pretty difficult to get a 'feel' for time between attacks when you're pausing/switching speeds constantly, as I do.

 

[Hormalakh]

After a fairly (in)decent amount of playing, I somehow only just noticed that the spell casting cursor changes when your character would need to move to cast the spell. I'd gotten annoyed a few times when my wizard started walking towards a group instead of casting a fireball and actually thought "they should do something about this" to only just now realise they had, the shame.

Expert mode taking away spell AoE circles is nuts in my opinion, that is pretty bloody vital if you're going to give an attribute that alters them . I doubt I'd play with it on anyway, that recovery bar is quite helpful as it is pretty difficult to get a 'feel' for time between attacks when you're pausing/switching speeds constantly, as I do.

The only way to do this is to at least have a place where it says the range on spells after AOE change. Like when you pick your spell, it should say range: 600 paces or something. then you'd just need to know how big 600 paces is.

 

[Infinitron]

Yo Edward_R_Murrow http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/95694753261/your-opposition-to-hard-counters-is-well-known-but-im

melnorme said: Your opposition to hard counters is well known, but I'm curious. Is there a level of absolute immunity to some spell or status effect that you ARE willing to accept? What if it only protects against a very narrow set of spells/effects? What if it's only temporary?

There are effects on items, racial abilities, talents, and spells that grant high Defensive bonuses against families of effects. The most notable examples are the priest’s Prayer Against _______ spells. They aren’t immunity, but they reduce existing durations a lot and they give large defensive bonuses, which tend to result in a lot more Miss or Graze results and few Crits.

I've followed this up with another question about whether he would be okay with an immunity that's very temporary (seconds, not minutes) and whether he'd be okay with stacking resistance buffs so high that you're almost immune anyway.

http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/95733643911/so-i-take-it-the-answer-is-no-then-however-if-the

melnorme said: So I take it the answer is "no", then? However, if the immunity has a short enough duration - I'm talking seconds, not minutes - isn't it no longer a hard counter? You can always just wait it out. And if it's also resource-limited, you can't repeat it endlessly. Another thing - what if you cast a "Prayer against X" type spell and then apply lots of additional resistance enhancing buffs _in addition to that_, making that resistance SO high you're practically immune? Would that be okay with you?

I think most people generally consider a hard counter to be a single or narrow spectrum of reactive tactics that comprehensively cancel the opponent’s tactic to such an extent that all other choices are rendered obsolete. Using that definition, I don’t think the scenarios you’re describing involve hard counters because there are a lot of other things you could do (including going heavily on offense) that could bring victory.

You could cast Prayer Against X spells and additional defense spells as a very strong counter, but buff spells in PoE all have an opportunity cost because they must be cast in combat. In the IE games, because buff spells typically did not have an opportunity cost, the ideal way to play through a fight was to wade in, get murdered, reload, and metagame by layering on tailored buffs before fighting again. If you didn’t pre-buff, you were fighting at a huge disadvantage. In PoE, the opportunity cost of buffs means they can’t really be taken for granted in the overall balance of fights.

Winding up with practical immunity to a type of attack (especially if it’s a narrow spectrum) over the course of a battle isn’t really an issue as much as what tactical choices the player made (or skipped over) to get to that point. The aim of these changes is to create a wider variety of effective party builds instead of requiring the player to always tote around a character of a given class because the game’s content would be enormously difficult to complete without them.

Ideally, I would like players to feel that priests are valuable, but not necessary. Wizards are valuable, but not necessary. Fighters are valuable, but not necessary. Even certain weapon types are valuable, but not necessary. Some of the creatures in the Backer Beta have very high resistance to one or two type of damage but are much more vulnerable to the other five or six basic types. I think there’s an important difference between that and saying, “You can only damage this creature with Slash.” or “You can’t hurt this creature until you cast one of these three wizard spells.” The latter prohibitions narrow the player’s viable tactics down to a tiny number. The former says, “Try something else.” and gives the player more room to find their own way through.

Edward_R_Murrow I've followed that question up with another one about limited immunities and better AI.

 

[mastroego]

So, if Sawyer's intent is to be believed, he should have gone with BG2's mechanics (or similar).
In BG2, in fact, no class was "necessary".
Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

 

[Zetor]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

edit: I should clarify, by zero cheese I mean not using clearly broken things, nor using things the AI can't deal with. Offscreen mislead, offscreen cloudkills, project image/simulacrum item & ability use, equipping the staff of the magi / cloak of mirroring / shield of balduran / that missile-reflecting shield at any point, trap stacking, wish abuse for full rememorization, probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting.

 

[Echo Mirage]

I hear it's possible with a kensai mage build.

 

[coffeetable]

So, if Sawyer's intent is to be believed, he should have gone with BG2's mechanics (or similar).
In BG2, in fact, no class was "necessary".
Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

the same level of metagame knowledge necessary to make solo'ing BG2 possible made playing BG2 with a full party ridiculously easy

 

[Rake]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

I did with Sorserer, but without SCS.

 

[Bubbles]

So, if Sawyer's intent is to be believed, he should have gone with BG2's mechanics (or similar).
In BG2, in fact, no class was "necessary".
Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

the same level of metagame knowledge necessary to make solo'ing BG2 possible made playing BG2 with a full party ridiculously easy

Will PoE change this?

 

[mastroego]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

Well, to solo with one of the "weaker" classes (see, they weren't "balanced" to be all equivalent), you probably needed some cheese.
But with an average party you didn't, and the point is, no specific class was absolutely necessary.
You could have a party with no Paladin, or a party with no Druid, and you'd be fine.

Sure, if you had a Paladin with the Holy sword some parts of the game became easier.
BUT, that was part of the FUN because, on another playthrough you'd want to try something else, and you'd find some parts of the game harder, without said Paladin, and other parts easier since -for instance- you included a Sorcerer in the party.
That was part of the charm of the classes. They had character and they made their presence known, and this had impact on different playthroughs.
Same thing applies for the unique items and the "hard counters".

Basically what I'm saying is: you don't develop a game starting from "blandness" and trying to infuse some life on it later (at which, you will fail).
You have to do the OPPOSITE: you start with the crazy and then, if it REALLY is a problem, you tone it down a little.

 

[coffeetable]

Will PoE change this?

probably not because it's a really hard problem to solve. my point was that mastroego's argument is daft.

"in BG2 every option is viable because you can solo the game with any class once you've played it through a couple of times and discussed it on forums for a few months"

 

[Rake]

Basically what I'm saying is: you don't develop a game starting from "blandness" and trying to infuse some life on it later (at which, you will fail).
You have to do the OPPOSITE: you start with the crazy and then, if it REALLY is a problem, you tone it down a little.

 

[Grunker]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

edit: I should clarify, by zero cheese I mean not using clearly broken things, nor using things the AI can't deal with. Offscreen mislead, offscreen cloudkills, project image/simulacrum item & ability use, equipping the staff of the magi / cloak of mirroring / shield of balduran / that missile-reflecting shield at any point, trap stacking, wish abuse for full rememorization, probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting.

Isn't MicoSelva doing just that on Insane in his LP?

"in BG2 every option is viable because you can solo the game with any class once you've played it through a couple of times and discussed it on forums for a few months"

Not to mention that soloing the game with non-casters requires pretty uniform abuse of the mechanics.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

I have been trying to keep up with the discussion in this thread, and it isn't easy. After reading peoples' opinions on attributes, etc, I have been thinking to myself that they would be better off with a classless system if balance is what they are aiming for. Everyone is almost equally good at everything, might as well let me customize all characters of my own(even companion stats) and be done with it. That way, the way attributes work now, would not be such a big problem compared to a class based system.

Why classless? Because the way everything related to gaining abilities and talents feels more automated than it should. Attributes aren't doing enough the way they are handled now. Let me fully customize my character with all abilities, talents, spells, etc. Or hell, remove spells from character and only make them purchasable from stores and then you can add them to grimoires that everyone can have the ability to equip. This would make for better replayability than the current state of how things are.

I also miss multi classing or dual classing. This was known to not be in for a very long time, but I have also been disappointed for a long time.

While I think one can argue that PoE, as currently designed, might as well be an attribute-less game, I don't see how it can be described as a classless game or a game where "everyone is almost equally good at everything." It is at heart a very class-y game. A chanter plays nothing like a cipher plays nothing like a monk plays nothing like a wizard plays nothing like a priest plays nothing like a paladin etc. The issue isn't whether there is enough diversity between the various classes, it is whether there is enough (any?) diversity within each classes.

All of the above is moot, however, if you are talking about out-of-combat play as opposed to in-combat play. I actually like the fact that there has been a hard line drawn between in-combat classes and out-of-combat "classes." In this sense, in-combat, PoE is a class-based game while out-of-combat, it is essentially a classless game with some classes getting bonuses to certain skills. This makes a solo run far more possible and gives you the freedom to have more unorthodox parties.

 

[MicoSelva]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

edit: I should clarify, by zero cheese I mean not using clearly broken things, nor using things the AI can't deal with. Offscreen mislead, offscreen cloudkills, project image/simulacrum item & ability use, equipping the staff of the magi / cloak of mirroring / shield of balduran / that missile-reflecting shield at any point, trap stacking, wish abuse for full rememorization, probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting.

Isn't MicoSelva doing just that on Insane in his LP?

Nah, I am using plenty of cheese in my LP. I try to resort to it only when there is no other way, but after dying too many times in one spot, it usually is time for Staff of The Magi Infinite Invisibility Cheesake or some such.

EDIT: Also, I have not reached ToB yet. Gave up on soloing it (on normal) when I played a few years ago with a similar character. We will see if this time it goes any better.

 

[Grunker]

Actually, it could be soloed, even, with just about anything.

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

edit: I should clarify, by zero cheese I mean not using clearly broken things, nor using things the AI can't deal with. Offscreen mislead, offscreen cloudkills, project image/simulacrum item & ability use, equipping the staff of the magi / cloak of mirroring / shield of balduran / that missile-reflecting shield at any point, trap stacking, wish abuse for full rememorization, probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting.

Isn't MicoSelva doing just that on Insane in his LP?

Nah, I am using plenty of cheese in my LP. I try to resort to it only when there is no other way, but after dying too many times in one spot, it usually is time for Staff of The Magi Infinite Invisibility Cheesake or some such.

Boooo!

 

[mastroego]

Basically what I'm saying is: you don't develop a game starting from "blandness" and trying to infuse some life on it later (at which, you will fail).
You have to do the OPPOSITE: you start with the crazy and then, if it REALLY is a problem, you tone it down a little.

To be fair, they're not my words (well, the words are)
This is the work-plan that the Civilization mastermind used to follow.
It worked well for him, I believe.

My impression is that Sawyer's approach might even result somehow in a decent game, but not one that will give many reasons to play it more than once.
Why would you after all?
It's inherently guaranteed that, evem with a different combination of party members and items, the experience will be more or less the same.
Heck, it's by design !

 

[Shannow]

Not to mention, that the ability to play through a party based game solo is not a sign of quality IMO.

 

[Osvir]

Generalist Druids in Pillars of Eternity... fun or no?

T-t-t-thoughts?

I asked Josh on Tumblr about it, and here's a thread where I go more in-depth.

In D&D and in the IE games I feel the Druids were "saved" by Lore and Kits. Something that doesn't quite exist in Pillars of Eternity (you become a "Kit" over time with Talents etc). But are they "saved" and properly "explained" in Pillars of Eternity...? Or is it just a remnant of Old, "counter-intuitive", Mechanics that made it in?

Is there something nostalgia-driven about Druids and Priests gaining all spells at once, or is it a copy+paste from the D&D Rulebooks?

Would it be more fun to build a Druid that focuses entirely on Spiritshifting, or Casting, or both? Or is it more fun to get all spells all at once?

Rethorically:
Would it be fun if Wizards got all Spells at once by default?

 

[GordonHalfman]

It's not surprising it requires some cheese to solo a party based game, but the difficulty of beating it without any arcane casters is often overstated. It's not even obviously harder on average.

Anyway Sawyer makes a really good point about pre-buffing, the problem with a lot of the spells in BG2 was less to do with the "hard counter" aspect in particular and more to do with the lack of opportunity cost in casting that kind of spell, mostly due to a combination of long spell durations, no pre-buffing limits and the way D&D spell-casters get stupid numbers of spells to cast at high level.

 

[Whiran]

Sincere question: has anyone soloed BG2 (+TOB, preferably) with zero cheese and/or blatant AI abuse?

edit: I should clarify, by zero cheese I mean not using clearly broken things, nor using things the AI can't deal with. Offscreen mislead, offscreen cloudkills, project image/simulacrum item & ability use, equipping the staff of the magi / cloak of mirroring / shield of balduran / that missile-reflecting shield at any point, trap stacking, wish abuse for full rememorization, probably a lot of stuff I'm forgetting.

I did it as a cleric. Does that count as cheese though?

 

[Zetor]

I was actually legit curious about no-cheese solo BG2 runs, so thanks for the input, sorry for the derail, etc.

Some people here: http://forum.bioware.com/topic/124277-baldurs-gate-2-no-reload-challenge/

Even with a fucking Jester: http://forum.bioware.com/topic/124277-baldurs-gate-2-no-reload-challenge/page-270#entry15093147

Well yea, but there's a lot of cheese all over the place there. The jester's last TOB fight had vhailor's helm + spike/time trap stacking from simulacrums. Won't deny it's a good achievement, though!

I did it as a cleric. Does that count as cheese though?

Don't think so, as long as you didn't use vhailor's helm to get free item/ability uses or stuff like shield of balduran vs beholders.

 

[Frusciante]

Questions in italics, josh replies normal text.

''So far the only enchatments we have seen is simple numerical values, and percentages, which feels boring. BG2 had weapons that had more varied effects, from (bleeding,stun,life stealing,slow) on hit, to passive buffs and protections(mind shield,negative plane Protection, haste etc.)while equiped, to active abilities and spells.''

This isn't true. If you look at the enchantment list, you will see that many of the things you mentioned are in the list (e.g. Wounding, Stunning, Draining are all in the weapon list -- only "slow" from your list isn't) and more. Though there aren't currently recipes for them, there are also Spellbind effects for weapons and armor (allow you to cast specific spells while the item is equipped) and Spell Holding for shields (go off when the holder is hit with a Crit). While the core list of effects are likely to remain accessible via the enchantment system, many of the Spellbind and Spell Holding effects are more likely to remain unique properties.

We also have to build up to a BG2 level of power. PoE is not in the same "power band" as BG2. It's more comparable to somewhere between BG and IWD.

''Strategic possibilities? Well that's pretty tough since anyone can use anything in this game. But I suppose we can come up with a list of just cool magic items.

- Sword of hobbling - a weapon that causes the hobble state on the target. Of course, the minute you give me such a weapon, I'm going to have my rogue equip it so that I can reap all the Rogue class's benefits against Hobbled targets lol. (ack! that almost qualifies as degenerate gameplay/exploit. Forget that pipe dream then. Sawyer won't allow it)''

There is already a property available in the Backer Beta called Overbearing that inflicts Prone, which also allows your rogue to gain Sneak Attack bonuses. The Stunning property would also do that, though either can be combined with Vicious to gain additional bonus damage.

So yes there will be unique items.

Having more characters slightly reduces the overall XP you gain, but it isn't straight division. Currently I think there's a 5% reduction in overall XP gained between party members. We've structured it this way due to how characters are banked at the stronghold and because players can hire additional adventurers for money at one level below their own. If you play with a smaller party, you will level a little bit faster, but not tremendously faster.

''People who still defends the core mechanics should really try this little experiment...

When a PC build with all attributes kept to the minimum (not using the fifty something points awarded at the creation phase) is equally viable than a character with the points well distributed, then there is something fundamentally flawed in the core system, something no amount of re-balancing can easily fix.''

If you adjusted the bonus scale for D&D's attribute system to go from -1 at 3 and +1 at 20, you would get the same outcome you're talking about, though -- and that would be a balance issue, not a fundamental mechanical issue. It may be that Might grants too little of a bonus from point to point, it may be that wizards' spells simply do so much damage that a low bonus doesn't have a large impact on their viability, or it could be something else.

The last quote is for people who believe that the problems with the attribute system can not be mitigated by tweaking/balancing.

'Banked companions gain XP at the stronghold at a reduced rate unless you send them on adventures, which helps make up the deficit.

I don't know the exact count of items with detailed histories in the game, but there are dozens and dozens of them.

 

[Abu Antar]

While I think one can argue that PoE, as currently designed, might as well be an attribute-less game, I don't see how it can be described as a classless game or a game where "everyone is almost equally good at everything." It is at heart a very class-y game. A chanter plays nothing like a cipher plays nothing like a monk plays nothing like a wizard plays nothing like a priest plays nothing like a paladin etc. The issue isn't whether there is enough diversity between the various classes, it is whether there is enough (any?) diversity within each classes.

All of the above is moot, however, if you are talking about out-of-combat play as opposed to in-combat play. I actually like the fact that there has been a hard line drawn between in-combat classes and out-of-combat "classes." In this sense, in-combat, PoE is a class-based game while out-of-combat, it is essentially a classless game with some classes getting bonuses to certain skills. This makes a solo run far more possible and gives you the freedom to have more unorthodox parties.

They are different in combat, yes. But if attributes matter so little and the only thing making classes different is a set of different abilities, that is not enough for me. If my wizard is as equally good as my fighter with a sword, then that's a failure in game design. If my wizard does almost the same damage as my fighter, then what is the fighters' purpose? Because my wizard can buff himself up and take a beating too. I was never a fan of the might attribute. It benefits some classes in more ways than one, classes that maybe shouldn't get the bonuses from raising it. Casters are favored in this system, in a way that makes them feel overpowered. Sure, the fighter has skills/abilities like defender mode, but the wizard has arcane veil, that can be used twice.

Yes, I know you could use melee wizards in D&D.