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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
The problem was that I just couldn't identify with that sniveling sycophant your past life was characterized as.

It didn't ruin my power fantasy as much as it was a very predetermined role you could barely role-play (to any degree where it would be the slightest bit relevant to anything but the endgame itself), and I was annoyed that his unresolved trust issues were basically the driving motivation of the entire game.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
The problem was that I just couldn't identify with that sniveling sycophant your past life was characterized as.
Well, you wouldn't have to. You can always play the contrast between your past life and your present personality. I played a former slave cleric of the god of confusion. As opposed to the then slave to the goddess of cunto-fascism. A story of redemption if you will, though its entirely in my head.

And that is the problem. I feel that PoE and Hong Kong both did something interesting but neither focused on the past enough to make it resonate. It only did with me because my own culture is filled with stories like Pillars'. If Hong Kong had focused on your learning more about Raymond with every investigative mission, instead of letting Auntie do the job, it would have been 1000% great. Same applies to a theoretical PoE that kept it all live, close and personal at all times -- as opposed to the political faction struggle of the middle arc.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,296
There were little context to the choices presented and there were no consequence for any of the choices. 2 big problemos makes it redundant.
 

2house2fly

Magister
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,877
I don't rightly remember, because I skimmed through all the walls of text, but I think the game allows you to take the position that you don't care about what your past reincarnation did. As it should be, IMO, because that was not you doing those things, it's like a distant great-grandfather. How should you feel responsible.
It does allow you to take that position, and it does not suggest that you should feel responsible.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,556
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Bulgaria
Reading all thins here,and i am impressed at how much forgettable the writing is in PoE. I have finished the game tree times and can't remember a lot of things. I remember that i chased some asshole because he was annoyingly rude and running away. The whole thing could have ended a lot better for him if he just talked to me. Such a stupid bastard! Had to smash his head with hammer for insulting a noble like me!
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
3,036
I think something that Fenstermaker's Folly wanted to say when he posted here after we published our interview with him is that the fact that you (the player) get to make character-defining dialogue choices as your character's past soul means that you should or could come to identify with him as well. Obviously that didn't work for everybody, but it's something that's often not acknowledged by critics who go "Why should I care, it's not my character". The interactivity is important.

See also: Determining your past choices with Duncan and Raymond in Shadowrun: Hong Kong.
It's obvious Obsidian is still using narrative guidelines established by Avellone. The whole 'establish your character's past through dialogue choices' shtick was first done in Kotor 2. It works in that game because you have a clearly defined past regardless of your choices, that of an exiled Jedi who lost their connection to the Force in the war, and the game is all about revisiting the conflicts and characters of your past (Atris & the other Jedi Masters). Your past isn't something abstract, it's something that's evident in all the locations you visited, all of which are still recovering from the war, and all your companions, all of whom have been deeply affected by the war in some way. There is a clear continuation between who the player character was before the game and who he is during the game.

But in PoE, you're a complete blank slate, and your past is very much abstract. The game attempts to make you feel invested in some past life of yours from thousands of years ago when it doesn't even give you a reason to care about your character in the present.
 

Sannom

Augur
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
951
This whole premise that you today should feel responsible for actions carried out by another person, in a previous age, is such gibberish.
You don't feel responsible for what they did, their thoughts, guilt and doubt just forces themselves upon your conscious self. You can't stop it or control it, that's the problem with Awakenings. Just like Aloth can't stop Iselmyr from coming out, Maneha can't forget something that she didn't do yet feels like she did or the lady in the sanitarium force the spoiled rich woman in her head to stop influencing her.

Reading all thins here,and i am impressed at how much forgettable the writing is in PoE. I have finished the game tree times and can't remember a lot of things.
Don't fault the game because you have a bird's memory.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,556
Location
Bulgaria
This whole premise that you today should feel responsible for actions carried out by another person, in a previous age, is such gibberish.
You don't feel responsible for what they did, their thoughts, guilt and doubt just forces themselves upon your conscious self. You can't stop it or control it, that's the problem with Awakenings. Just like Aloth can't stop Iselmyr from coming out, Maneha can't forget something that she didn't do yet feels like she did or the lady in the sanitarium force the spoiled rich woman in her head to stop influencing her.

Reading all thins here,and i am impressed at how much forgettable the writing is in PoE. I have finished the game tree times and can't remember a lot of things.
Don't fault the game because you have a bird's memory.
Butthurt fanboy! A pirate buying the game at full price with the dlcs and finishing it tree times is hardly a person that dislikes the game! I still remember games i have played 20 years ago like Torment. The game just have forgettable story, i do remember the cult quest.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,629
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sizzle Twitter thread protip: Each embed displays the current tweet and the previous one, so you only need to post the even-numbered tweets in each thread.

to prevent classes like fighters (e.g.) from feeling gutted in the passive department, we will support buying them either as abilities OR talents

Also lol did Josh just reinvent the concept of 3E Fighter bonus feats
 
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Jezal_k23

Guest
Tech related questions.

In PoE, even on a decent PC, places like Copperlane suffered from FPS drops when there were too many characters on screen (which was also not even a high numbers of characters). Since they said urban areas would feel more alive in Deadfire, assuming that one of the things they meant by that is that there would be more people walking around (well, as opposed to NO people walking around in PoE), do these FPS drops still occur with like, over ~10 characters onscreen? How much better does it perform? How does it handle higher number of characters onscreen?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
PoE's writing problems can be summed up like this, kinda chronologically ->

1. Weak and contrived opening. Fate thrusts unknown powers on you. Either this had to change to a Herculean-like "fate/a god thrusts tasks on you, preferably for something you shouldn't have done, and here's some powers to help you (not solve them for you)" or completely eliminate the Watcher thing and going with the natives that attack the caravan capturing you and going off from there. It would've been very interesting to complete the Twelve Labours of Hercules.

2. No goal or motivations at the beginning, necessitating ghost animancer dwarf ladies packing you lunch and setting you off to grandma's (Maerwald's) house. If we accept that there's no way around the Watcher powers, this should've been replaced with something bad happening because of them, maybe you blanking out and attacking people, prompting you to go research the issue.

3. Along the way to Maerwald's you meet limp dick companions, with the exception of Durance, that have no reason to go with you anywhere. I have no idea how to include companions in the context of this story that would make sense and it wouldn't just be "you can solve their problems".

4. You learn about the Hollow children and it seems important because the journal tells you that the main quest is the Hollowing of the Dyrwood. Why this is a problem will be apparent later.

5. Insomnia and insanity that never actually materialize or matter. They never feel like a burden to anyone, including yourself. See the solution to 2, needs more bad things happening because of you.

6. After some chasing around of the Leaden Key, fixing things with your Watcher powers, your main motivation seems to be replaced by the soul guilting thing. I think it's supposed to show you your insanity and you don't want those visions to happen. They have a storyline attached to them just to introduce you to the villain du jour. The Leaden Key should've hinted that the Hollowborn crisis and the mass awakening of Watchers in the Dyrwood are connected. Telling you to seek out Thaos who is trying to find a solution as well.

7. Watcher powers. I already said this, but they are too vague, plot-insulation-y and problem-solver-y for any drama to happen.

8. The villain. His involvement makes no sense and you randomly stumble on his machinations that also make no sense. The story didn't need a villain, YOU should've been the villain and Thaos should've been trying to stop you, as he's trying to curb the negative effects of awakened Watchers. Then you either buddy-buddy or kill him when you find out what he knows about the Hollowborn.

9. Iovara. She doesn't matter at all, even if you say that "she didn't want to accept manufactured gods as real ones and rebelled, her choice is what counts" her choice means nothing. It doesn't underline anything fundamentally wrong with the status quo, nor does it reveal any solutions. It's not like Akachi's in MotB where it sparked a theological debate of the justice of the planes and inspired another Crusade. She's a self-contained bubble. Remove her.

10. The manufactured gods. It doesn't matter, they still have all their powers and domains, nothing revolutionary happens when you find out they aren't "real" either. It's self-contained again, they just are and that's it. It's meaningless.

11. Fixing the Hollowborn. It's entirely incidental and you weren't doing that at all, it was shoe-horned in so you could do something heroic at the end without any meat to it. The problem with fixing it here is that there is no logical cause, everything that I can think of is an ass-pull. Woedica empowering herself is too out-of-the-blue, someone siphoning souls to wherever means introducing a villain at the very end, you being the cause has no dramatic bearing and it wouldn't matter, etc. I'm stumped. It requires a complete rewrite from the very beginning so it makes sense for it to be a punishment from the gods for something you did. Maybe you were an animancer and you forced your Watcher powers on yourself, angering the gods, but you don't remember due to trauma. The Hollowborn are a little too extreme and impossible irl, so it requires an extreme, supernatural cause, like the gods.

12. Lack of character-driven drama. There are no inter-personal relationships anywhere, everything happens because of some grand, earth-shattering reason, like animancy hearings and Thaos trying to empower a fucking god of all things. It's trying to be epic, but failing at the basics by not having conflicting motivations that clash and create drama. Nor does it have any soul-searching and internal conflict, the only exception being Durance and maybe GM.

I am probably forgetting stuff, it's all a miasma and even though I played it 2 times, one of which was recently, I still have trouble recounting details.
 
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Ulfhednar

Savant
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
809
Location
Valhalla
Tech related questions.

In PoE, even on a decent PC, places like Copperlane suffered from FPS drops when there were too many characters on screen (which was also not even a high numbers of characters). Since they said urban areas would feel more alive in Deadfire, assuming that one of the things they meant by that is that there would be more people walking around (well, as opposed to NO people walking around in PoE), do these FPS drops still occur with like, over ~10 characters onscreen? How much better does it perform? How does it handle higher number of characters onscreen?
There are more characters, with pathing, in the Deadfire village than in Copperlane- the performance in the area seems poor, but it is a beta.
 

2house2fly

Magister
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,877
Reading all thins here,and i am impressed at how much forgettable the writing is in PoE. I have finished the game tree times and can't remember a lot of things.
Don't fault the game because you have a bird's memory.
To be fair, the writing not being interesting enough to pay attention to is a perfectly valid criticism. Certainly more so than all the people who are criticising their own half-remembered misinterpretations of basic plot elements.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
3,036
Tech related questions.

In PoE, even on a decent PC, places like Copperlane suffered from FPS drops when there were too many characters on screen (which was also not even a high numbers of characters). Since they said urban areas would feel more alive in Deadfire, assuming that one of the things they meant by that is that there would be more people walking around (well, as opposed to NO people walking around in PoE)
The biggest reason why cities in PoE didn't feel very alive wasn't because of the amount of NPC's, it was because of the sound design (or rather, the lack thereof). Athkatla and Sigil have much richer ambient soundscapes than Defiance Bay.

There's a cool article talking specifically about Torment's audio design: http://filmsound.org/game-audio/audio.html

The making of Torment effects began with ambient sound. This was to set the tone, convey the mood of each area in the game, and ultimately immerse the player in a deep atmosphere. Every corner in Torment is filled with ambient noises and looping backgrounds. These sounds even change with the time of day. "If a stove is off at night, you can hear rats running around in the pipes, or scary demon birds flying around outside," describes Duman. Interplay Audio Director, Charles Deenen, created the approximately 450 ambient effects in the game. Several weeks before Torment was to final, Charles propositioned Interplay sound designers to listen to a looping ambient sound from Torment and try to figure out what the original sources were for the final effect; extrapolating a recipe from a cooked meal. The effect resembled distant crickets chirping through an eerie wind. The cricket sound was strange, otherworldly, but the source could have been a summer night in the desert. That analysis was too obvious; Charles is a master of creative sound manipulation. Loading the file back into ProTools, the digital audio system in which the sound was created, allowed the team to do a little investigative research into the origins of this mysterious wind. To unlock the secret, the sound was pitched up an octave. The ambient sound became smoother, the wind and the cricket elements melted into each other but still there was nothing recognizable. Another octave and behold, the familiar hollow wailing of a….camel. It was still mutated, but the camel call was clearly identifiable. Next day there was another ambient to examine for its creative origins. This one was surely a wind, odd, but surely just a wind. This time the sound designers were mistaken. The source for this spooky, aggressive wind was a bear roar, stretched out, looped, and transformed. Deenen created the strange world of Torment out of completely alien elements with the intent to manifest a sense of disorientation, a sense of altered reality.

Chattering over the camel inspired crickets and bearish winds are the many voices of Torment. The denizens of the marketplace talk to each other, and to you. They have heated familial arguments, sell their wares, and generally get on with their strange existence. From bars to small rooms, Torment is populated with intriguing background characters. Interplay's Voice Talent Director Chris Borders, wrangled in one of Hollywood's best-known walla groups to fill every area of the game with life. The Barbara Harris walla group has performed crowd sounds for around half of all recent Hollywood features. A walla group supplies background chatter, it is called "walla" because actors originally used "walla walla walla" to create the illusion of nondescript chatter.
 
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fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,556
Location
Bulgaria
The whole story sounds cool and interesting on paper. Soulless abominations,cursed protagonist going slowly insane,immortal fanatical priest. But then it ended up as ok forgettable story. The execution wasn't up to snuff. I take it they decided to ad too much pointless stuff in the story.
 

mortimermcmire

Literate
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
9
0CqwWCv.png

big if true
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
The story is basically a retelling of BG1, but worse. Here's the gist of it ->


I proposed once that the flashbacks with Thaos should've been playable, to make them more personal. I think they tried to copy BG1's story structure -> You find yourself not knowing what you are (Bhaalspawn/Watcher) or where to go, a central conflict (Iron Crisis/Hollowborn Crisis) sweeps you up and introduces you to your antagonist (Sarevok/Thaos), you go around trying to get to a big city (Baldur's Gate/Defiance Bay), a political struggle (Iron Throne/Animancy) and coup makes itself apparent (Sarevok trying to kill the dukes/Thaos killing the duc), you go around trying to catch the antagonist (Thieves' Maze/Sun in Shadow). All the while unrelated adventures happen. The execution differs greatly, however, and PoE struggles with coming up with a plot and making the characters in it relevant. It tries to focus too much on each premise, but since it's simultaneously rushed and overwritten none of them can be given a spotlight, so the narrative jumps from one to the other without any precedents.

There is no problem with each of these premises or whether there's an antagonist or not. It would've turned out better had the story been focused on one thing, the game is already bursting at the seams by trying to do too much with a limited budget and time constraint. They could've interconnected everything better, but that would require either more time/money or cutting of different content, like Twin Elms. Which I wouldn't have been opposed to tbh, Twin Elms feels like and is an afterthought. There is an extra act which BG1 doesn't have and could've been cut without the game losing anything, and even gaining something. If one game could benefit enormously from an EE, it's PoE, I kinda hope they do do this at one point.
 

santino27

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
2,784
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
The problem was that I just couldn't identify with that sniveling sycophant your past life was characterized as.

It didn't ruin my power fantasy as much as it was a very predetermined role you could barely role-play (to any degree where it would be the slightest bit relevant to anything but the endgame itself), and I was annoyed that his unresolved trust issues were basically the driving motivation of the entire game.

My problem was that, in addition to not identifying, I just didn't care at all. The game clearly wanted all that crap to be one of my driving motivations, but being told about something that happened to a prior soul made zero impact on me. As a result, all the little soul interludes were just tedious.

Edit: Also, how did the POE2 thread become a POE story-commentary thread? I know the law of the codex is that any thread not about Obsidian must eventually become one about Obsidian, but this instance is a little too inception-y even for me. :P
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
Without teachers to teach them about the matter, simple people have become victims of the fallacy, purposefully spread by socialists, that we should judge events, decisions and actions that happened in distant historical periods by applying present day moral values universally. As if people in the late Middle Ages saw the world in the same categories in which we see it, or they thought about the State, God, their purpose in life in the same way in which a post-modern man thinks. If you have ever read a history schoolbook written from a Marxist perspective in the times of a Communist dictatorship, the similarities in the reasoning will hit you hard. Basically, the peasants revolted against the feudal lords because of class struggle, therefore their actions were progressive (because they were moving the wheel closer to the advent of Capitalism and its natural successor - the revolution of the proletariat) and just :D

I just have to say that I've heard people blaming socialists for moral relativism and now that I'm hearing people blame them for moral absolutism. Additionally, I don't think anyone is seriously saying that the peasants thought in terms of class struggle themselves; a Marxist would probably say they were most likely unaware of their role in the class struggle.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
The story is basically a retelling of BG1, but worse.
When you lose to BG 1 in terms of plot, you know there is something wrong with you. PoE plot felt like the product of a writer that had a much grander vision of things but lacked the talent/time to actually implement that all on something that made sense. I would take a simplistic story all the day of the week, than one that tried more but failed becoming incoherent and muddled.
 

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