Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Mazisky]

If Eder was written by Avellone and Durance by random dude...codex would have been like:

"Omg Eder best written character of Poe, that personal struggle i almost cryed so intense,"

"Omg Durance so edgy why those crap writers need to make borderline characters just to being noticed, so boring omg"

Let's face the reality

 

[Cross]

By the way, when I say that companions in PoE are written 'mechanically', I also mean that all their content is structured the same (with the exception of Durance and the Grieving Mother). They all have a companion quest that is solved by going somewhere and talking with someone (or something), and personal dialogue trees that consist of expository dialogue about their background and their homeland. This is true even for sheltered characters like Eder, who will talk at length about the Saint's War and the history of the Dyrwood.

This is basically the post-Baldur's Gate Bioware approach (starting with Kotor). It's in contrast to games like PS:T and Kotor 2 where companions don't have discrete companion quests and their content is structured differently.

The problem with this approach is that it can very easily lead to characters feeling generic. There's only one companion in PoE who has a compelling reason to spout all those walls of text, the guy who is an actual preacher. And even then, unlike the other companions, Durance's stories are as much history lessons as they are his subjective views and attempts to reframe the past.

The same goes for the descriptive text. Again, there's only one companion who can really justify their use, the woman who is a cipher and who communicates heavily through mental visions. (Unfortunately, the actual writing for the Grieving Mother is quite bad and doesn't really do the concept of her character justice.)

The other issue is with how characters talk. The style of dialogue feels too modern and most characters lack distinct voices and mannerisms.

 

[Quillon]

If Eder was written by Avellone and Durance by random dude...codex would have been like:

"Omg Eder best written character of Poe, that personal struggle i almost cryed so intense,"

"Omg Durance so edgy why those crap writers need to make borderline characters just to being noticed, so boring omg"

Let's face the reality

 

[Nano]

If Eder was written by Avellone and Durance by random dude...codex would have been like:

"Omg Eder best written character of Poe, that personal struggle i almost cryed so intense,"

"Omg Durance so edgy why those crap writers need to make borderline characters just to being noticed, so boring omg"

Let's face the reality

What a stupid scenario. Eder and Durance would've been written completely differently if that happened.

 

[Abu Antar]

Eder's a bro. That's just how it is. Everyone who thinks otherwise should be stripped of their brofisting privileges.

 

[2house2fly]

If Eder was written by Avellone and Durance by random dude...codex would have been like:

"Omg Eder best written character of Poe, that personal struggle i almost cryed so intense,"

"Omg Durance so edgy why those crap writers need to make borderline characters just to being noticed, so boring omg"

Let's face the reality

What a stupid scenario. Eder and Durance would've been written completely differently if that happened.

Eder would have been suspicious of everyone and talked about everything in terms of light, dawn, and the harvest. He would actively hide the fact that he even had a brother until you had unclear visions which turned out to be Eder killing a Raedceran soldier on the battlefield, a man who he realised too late was... his brother. He would carry unique weapons completely unsuitable for a Fighter. He would describe himself due to survivors guilt as a stalk of wheat just waiting for the reaper to notice he was still standing and cut him down, but due to the dawn of your insight dispersing the mists of his ignorance he would realise that he was the reaper all along.

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

 

[Ruzen]

I think from a creative perspective. Characters like Durance (crazy eye person) are one of the most easily creatable characters and more easily likable.

Eder is not unlikable for Durance to be more likeable than him, it's not about that at all. It's about what a given character is doing in a specific story. What people are saying about Eder, that's he sorrowful and disillusioned over his brother's choice, is a character concept, not a character that exerts influence or has something "to say" in context. Durance has something to say - the gods are ultimately fickle beings and unquestioning loyalty to them will inevitably burn you, quite literally in his case. Maybe this can be extended to all kinds of authority figures that are dis-attached from those they perceive to be their underlings. This is done in a logical way in the context of the setting and its history, he was there for a pivotal moment in it. This experience has shaped him to be this uncaring, foul-mouthed and almost insane wanderer bent on trying to figure out where he went wrong, note that he never accused Magran of being responsible for the deaths of his fellow bomb-smiths before he found out she was. He tried to find meaning in his perceived failure in his mistress' eyes, so his obsession with punishment and trials by fire ultimately comes from there. This should've been explored further, but due to Obs' meddling and uncompromising butchery it was all kind of between-the-lines.

Eder, on the other hand, is simply sad about his brother's choice and death. His doubts never really go anywhere, it hasn't shaped his character in any particular way, nor does he reveal anything more around the Saint's War, the reasons for it or its aftermath. When you find his brother's trinket and can get no answers, he goes "oh, well" and that's that. It's really understated and even pointless. What do the doubts and disillusionment amount to in his case? I'm actually at a loss for words about what more I can say about Eder, his character actively resists attempts at further analysis or in-depth readings. Maybe I am missing something profound about him and he's actually way more interesting than I think, I'd love for someone to make a character analysis for him so I can see if there's something more to the love everyone has for him, apart from "he's a totally normal person and a bro!" as if that makes him a good character in a fictional story.

Why fiction has to 'say' something? Characters don't have to be a preacher. In my statement, I was trying to tell about creative perspective which of them are easier to create. You can always sell a character who makes all the good jokes, edgy, smart or some other cool traits. The real work is to make an average joe character to be interesting. Eder is a chill, gullible, keep it to your self person and therefore he's acting accordingly to his persona. Now, I don't think Obsidian did an excellent job of presenting Eder but It is a hard thing to do over super crazy possibility characters. There was this thing I heard couple days before and I think It fits perfectly here. The war stories told from a soldier perspective is going to be more boring than a general.

Durance character is told to player better because of the many cool roads you can take to portrait a character. Zealous, talkative traits give him the perfect opportunity to make this emotional character. It's like playing Malkavian in Vampire Masquerade, you can write far more easy dialogues to keep the player interesting when you portrait an insane person. That's why Characters like Durance are one of the most easily creatable characters.

 

[Quillon]

Now, I don't think Obsidian did an excellent job of presenting Eder but It is a hard thing to do over super crazy possibility characters.

Well, he's the most present character with barks and dialogue comments everywhere if not the most well presented.

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Zahua.

 

[2house2fly]

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Zahua.

Or, according to Chris Avellone, Durance.

 

[Azarkon]

Ok, what about that final decision? Go into more specifics, why is that important in the context of his character, the setting or the story? There is no underlying discussion about technology advancement leading to abandonment of the gods, where are you getting that from? Also, what "core theme" of the game? There isn't a plot, let alone a theme.

There are two major themes in the game - straight from the developer's mouth. We've discussed this before on the Codex, but it's been so long, and the game's execution so mediocre, that people are starting to forget.

The first theme, which most concerns Eder, is the more obvious one. Iovara asks, "what if we can be assured of nothing?" This is the main concept of the game - there is no God, no higher purpose, no absolute truth. In such a nihilistic world, how do you find, or create, meaning? Most of the major characters are asked this question and deal with it in their own respective ways. Eder's story doesn't end with him wallowing over his brother. It ends with him accepting that people need to find their own way, instead of depending on the gods. There's two key conversations. First, when you ask him about whether he thinks he should've went with his brother, towards the end of the game:

Eder: "If I'd have left with him we'd both be dead, so I don't know why I bother thinking about it. I found my own way in the end, and it wasn't my brother's, and it wasn't my god's. Don't know if it was right. But I couldn't abide what Waidwen was doing to his own, god or not. I don't regret it. Whether Waidwen was Eothas... well, it hardly seems to matter, after what we just heard. All these questions I've been trying to figure out... I think I just miss my brother." He smiles faintly, and when he breaths, the air seems to flow more freely through his lungs.

Then, at the end of the game, when you defeat Thaos and Eder comments about the answers you got from him:

Eder: "Got a lot of people out there thinking they've been abandoned by their gods. There's not much that'll put the fear in you more than that. You can take my word for it. If it was in my power - and I know it's not - but if it was, I'd find a way to give them the courage to face it. Not 'cause they think there's some god looking out for them, but because they've just got it in 'em."

With these two conversations, it's obvious Eder has gotten over both his crisis of faith, and the fact that he wouldn't be getting any absolute answers about his brother. That no longer matters so much, since Eder has now found his own meaning, his own path - one that does not rely on the gods, but on human experience and courage.

It's actually quite a powerful journey, when you look at it conceptually. The way it's presented, however, makes it lose all its dramatic power. Eder being Fenstermaker's character and the main theme of Pillars of Eternity being his baby, I think the quest line actually illustrates the biggest problem with the game's story: Fenstermaker is a literary writer, not a dramatic one. He likes to deal with concepts and themes, and the sort of subtle presentations that beg for close reading and analysis. This is opposed to the highly dramatic, character focused, and emotional presentations favored by, say, Chris Avellone, and entertainment fans in general. It's also very hard to make work for CRPGs where the main form of interaction is through dramatic dialogue.

 

[Azarkon]

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Calling Eric Fenstermaker, the lead narrative designer of Pillars of Eternity, that guy who wrote Eder, just illustrates the fundamental problem people have with interpreting the game. This is not just some random writer Obsidian hired to create a bromance character, this is the lead writer who came up with the whole concept of the Pillars of Eternity world and its main narrative themes. You should assume, absence evidence in the opposite direction, that Eder is the best representation of what Fenstermaker was trying to achieve with his story - it's Avellone who's the outsider, here, especially since they ended up cutting much of what he actually wrote.

 

[2house2fly]

There's two key conversations. First, when you ask him about whether he thinks he should've went with his brother, towards the end of the game:

Eder: "If I'd have left with him we'd both be dead, so I don't know why I bother thinking about it. I found my own way in the end, and it wasn't my brother's, and it wasn't my god's. Don't know if it was right. But I couldn't abide what Waidwen was doing to his own, god or not. I don't regret it. Whether Waidwen was Eothas... well, it hardly seems to matter, after what we just heard. All these questions I've been trying to figure out... I think I just miss my brother." He smiles faintly, and when he breaths, the air seems to flow more freely through his lungs.

Then, at the end of the game, when you defeat Thaos and Eder comments about the answers you got from him:

Eder: "Got a lot of people out there thinking they've been abandoned by their gods. There's not much that'll put the fear in you more than that. You can take my word for it. If it was in my power - and I know it's not - but if it was, I'd find a way to give them the courage to face it. Not 'cause they think there's some god looking out for them, but because they've just got it in 'em."

With these two conversations, it's obvious Eder has gotten over both his crisis of faith, and the fact that he wouldn't be getting any absolute answers about his brother. That no longer matters so much, since Eder has now found his own meaning, his own path - one that does not rely on the gods, but on human experience and courage.

I would point out that that is one of two endings for Eder; he says something different depending on how your interactions with him go. I'm away from my computer right now but I will copy and paste it when I get home. The gist of it is that he finds his faith renewed, and at the end he asks you to send the souls back to their original bodies so that things can go back to normal.

 

[Maculo]

I took a quick break to finish my Total Warhammer 2 playthrough.

So, any combination of multiclassing standing out so far? What combination have you used?

This is my custom party now:

- Crusader (Unbroken/ The Shieldbearers of St Elcga)
- Liberator (Lifegiver/ Darcozzi Paladini)
- Hunter (Devoted/ Sharpshooter)
- Swashbuckler (Devoted/ Streetfighter)
- Hierophant (Illusionist/ Beguiler)

The Crusader, Swashbuckler and Hierophant are doing really great. I need to observe others better. The Hunter is melting down in almost every encounter.

Swashbuckler was the Oprah of critical strikes. You get a crit, you get a crit, everyone get's a crit. The fighter tank subclass/St. Elcga is an amazing tank in my opinion, especially on PotD. I also tried shape-shifter/barbarian (subclass that can damage party members) with decent results. For a time, it was doing an immense amount of damage, although I miss micro'd and caused massive damage to my own party in the process of the spore fight.

How did you use/play Hierophant?

nobody has answered whether the backer beta still features laborious and unreadable turd-paragraphs or if they tightened up their writing

The backer beta's writing is apparently improved, though it's not a huge improvement. Unfortunately, I can't tell you much more since those with backer beta access are too busy arguing over POE1.

Arguing over PoE1 is nearly as entertaining as the game itself, if not more so at times.

 

[Quillon]

this is the lead writer who came up with the whole concept of the Pillars of Eternity world and its main narrative themes.

Main narrative themes, sure why not but the rest should be a team effort. Even Ziets worked on it; created the gods IIRC, in its conceptual state.

 

[2house2fly]

I would point out that that is one of two endings for Eder; he says something different depending on how your interactions with him go. I'm away from my computer right now but I will copy and paste it when I get home. The gist of it is that he finds his faith renewed, and at the end he asks you to send the souls back to their original bodies so that things can go back to normal.

"If I'd have left with him we'd both be dead, so I don't know why I bother thinking about it."
He scrapes the tops of his fingernails back and forth softly across his jawline. "He asked me to trust him, the day he left. Said if I went with him, he'd make sure we were on the right path. And he deserved that. He deserved that trust from me."
He squints, his eyes searching. "Readceras is a long way to walk on your own. I think I'd have liked to have been there with him on that journey... even knowing how it ended."

Got a lot of people out there thinking they've been abandoned by their gods. There's not much that'll put the fear in you more than that. You can take my word for it. If it was in my power - and I know it's not - but if it was, I'd send every last one of those souls right back where they were supposed to go in the first place. So folks could get back to believing what they used to.

 

[Trashos]

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Calling Eric Fenstermaker, the lead narrative designer of Pillars of Eternity, that guy who wrote Eder, just illustrates the fundamental problem people have with interpreting the game. This is not just some random writer Obsidian hired to create a bromance character, this is the lead writer who came up with the whole concept of the Pillars of Eternity world and its main narrative themes. You should assume, absence evidence in the opposite direction, that Eder is the best representation of what Fenstermaker was trying to achieve with his story - it's Avellone who's the outsider, here, especially since they ended up cutting much of what he actually wrote.

Eric also did Vault 11 in New Vegas. That's hands down the most interesting Vault in the base game. I am sure I am going to miss MCA from Obsidian's works, but I am going to miss Eric too. That said, Eder was fine (although the class change must have been painful), but I still like Durance more. I think you guys are fighting over the 2 best companions in PoE.

 

[Azarkon]

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Calling Eric Fenstermaker, the lead narrative designer of Pillars of Eternity, that guy who wrote Eder, just illustrates the fundamental problem people have with interpreting the game. This is not just some random writer Obsidian hired to create a bromance character, this is the lead writer who came up with the whole concept of the Pillars of Eternity world and its main narrative themes. You should assume, absence evidence in the opposite direction, that Eder is the best representation of what Fenstermaker was trying to achieve with his story - it's Avellone who's the outsider, here, especially since they ended up cutting much of what he actually wrote.

Eric also did Vault 11 in New Vegas. That's hands down the most interesting Vault in the base game. I am sure I am going to miss MCA from Obsidian's works, but I am going to miss Eric too. That said, Eder was fine (although the class change must have been painful), but I still like Durance more. I think you guys are fighting over the 2 best companions in PoE.

I agree with this. Whatever his faults as a dramatic writer, Eric Fenstermaker was still one of the better writers at Obsidian. That does not excuse his role in the writing of Pillars of Eternity being generally mediocre - he was the lead writer, after all - but perhaps there were factors other than his personal writing skills.

I feel the same way about George Ziets and Torment: Tides of Numenera. And for that matter, Chris Avellone and his current works.

 

[fobia]

I guess until the next Beta update, this will be a PoE thread.

Have the monocled beta knights, be it playing or just observing, been posting their criticism/feedback on the official forum?

 

[CptMace]

If Eder was written by Avellone and Durance by random dude...codex would have been like:

"Omg Eder best written character of Poe, that personal struggle i almost cryed so intense,"

"Omg Durance so edgy why those crap writers need to make borderline characters just to being noticed, so boring omg"

Let's face the reality

When you consider Durance the strongest character in the roster while you state that GM is among the weakest, and someone posts that shit in the same thread.

 

[Cross]

Now if Durance was written by the guy who wrote Eder, who can say what that would be like.

Calling Eric Fenstermaker, the lead narrative designer of Pillars of Eternity, that guy who wrote Eder, just illustrates the fundamental problem people have with interpreting the game. This is not just some random writer Obsidian hired to create a bromance character, this is the lead writer who came up with the whole concept of the Pillars of Eternity world and its main narrative themes.

The narrative, sure, but the world is almost entirely Sawyer's brainchild.

I also wouldn't discount the possibility that some design decisions, such as the heavy overreliance on exposition, were mandated from higher up. This quote from Avellone talking about the drawn out opening of Old World Blues certainly suggests that was the case:

So... I concur and still hate myself for it to this day.

While this doesn't excuse the length (nothing can, and a number of people at the studio refused to give the DLC a chance on play days because of it), after numerous... discussions concerning how much more the context of Dead Money needed to be explained at the outset (which I fiercely disagreed with and its the reason Elijah goes on so long), the Old World Blues intro was designed as a response to prevent further such time-wasting discussions and I never should have bent the knee to the thought because, hey, players don't need to have everything explained to them if they see it working in the actual world they're exploring.

But I did write it, so I deserve the blame - it goes on too long, and it kills the momentum, frankly. The only part I probably could have chosen to remove with little consequences is the mockery sequence for anyone attempting to speed run through the DLC and claim it was too short (which was part of the reason that we had ending slides based on how many labs you found when you explored) and maybe the Barter sequence thread (I always feel like Barter gets shafted in Fallout if there's not enough stores), but I added the Barter sequence after one of our senior level designers, Jeff Husges, mentioned it would be a lot more fun to be able to outwit/show up the brains, and like most of what Jeff says, I agreed with it.

True story: the intro was based off the Venture Brothers (shocker! if you weren't already aware) where Dr. Girlfriend is being interrogated by the Guild of Calamitous Intent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVjuwhEWonU

Oh, well. That said, I did think it was the one DLC that was going to be burned in effigy when it was released since it came close to scaling the 4th wall.

 

[Reinhardt]

We need a video of Eric playing Arcanum.

 

[Ruzen]

Now, I don't think Obsidian did an excellent job of presenting Eder but It is a hard thing to do over super crazy possibility characters.

Well, he's the most present character with barks and dialogue comments everywhere if not the most well presented.

I mean as in the context what I was writing, about making a good job of keeping the player's interest of this an average joe character. They did try though and It was a success. I liked the Eder but the amount of screen time doesn't mean he presented in an excellent way but It could mean he represented excellently.

 

[fantadomat]

We all know which characters are the best,but what about the worst. So guys who do you think is the worst character in PoE?

 

[Background Character]

My main party had Eder AND Durance

Winning

 

[Lacrymas]

Besides Durance and GM, everyone else (with the possible exception of WM companions and Hiravias, never recruited them, so I wouldn't know) is practically the same character with different window dressing.

Why fiction has to 'say' something?

It's figuratively, not literally. They have to make sense in the context of the story, otherwise they are, by definition, pointless. Companions are major characters, they can't be random or have a gimmick that gets old the second time you speak to them. And, like Cross pointed out, they are mere receptacles of lore rather than characters who have a place in the story.

There are two major themes in the game - straight from the developer's mouth. We've discussed this before on the Codex, but it's been so long, and the game's execution so mediocre, that people are starting to forget.

The first theme, which most concerns Eder, is the more obvious one. Iovara asks, "what if we can be assured of nothing?" This is the main concept of the game - there is no God, no higher purpose, no absolute truth. In such a nihilistic world, how do you find, or create, meaning? Most of the major characters are asked this question and deal with it in their own respective ways. Eder's story doesn't end with him wallowing over his brother. It ends with him accepting that people need to find their own way, instead of depending on the gods. There's two key conversations. First, when you ask him about whether he thinks he should've went with his brother, towards the end of the game:

I can say that PoE is about the destruction of the family unit and it will ring as true as that, i.e. not true at all. "What if we can assured of nothing?" is not nihilistic, it's what Descartes asked many centuries ago. Nothing of this is ever explored, Iovara asking a question does not constitute a theme or exploration of it. She falls flat in many different ways, she doesn't make sense at all and you shouldn't look to her for a theme. Otherwise, I agree that Eder doesn't have the dramatic presence in the story to sell whatever he's trying to sell. Whether that be independence from gods or finding meaning in human potential. Such grand themes, yet sound so laughable in the context of PoE.